Aragorn's Ancestors

[Odysseus819]

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My brother has a theory that Aragorn could claim descent from the three original ambassadors to Aman (Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë) and that Arwen descended from Olwë; hence their son Eldarion could claim descent from all 4 of the original elf kings. (And I think there's a sentence in one of the Appendices about Aragorn and Arwen reuniting the lines of teh elven kings). Aragorn's descent from Ingwë was, he thought, through the Indis-Fingolfin-Eärendil line. However, I read in another post (a great post about the 144 &quot;original&quot; elves, the &quot;Unbegotten&quot that Indis was a sister to Ingwë, not his descendant. So is this theory not correct?

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[Glorfindel]

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Re: Aragorn's Ancestors

Wow this will be a huge family tree discussion.

I think Aragorn was related to Finwe by ways of the kings of numenor, then to earendil and turgon, to fingolfin, and finally finwe. Now he was also related to Elrond (incest is the best) And elrond was also tied in with finwe via earendil his father. But he was also related to Elwe through Dior, Luthian and then finally to Elwe. But i find it hard to relate him with Olwe besides the fact he was Elwe's brother. And the only way i can relate in slightest way from Olwe to Arwen is if Celeborn was Elwe's kinsmen and maybe he was closer related to Olwe, and since he married Galadriel he has Olwe's line in him, then he would have pasted it to Celebrian then one to Arwen. That i think is the hardest relative to trace. Now Ingwe was (from the index of the silm) in close kinship with Indris, Finwe's second wife. So if you go through all that mess again i think Ingwe's line shows up also.
Man talk about keeping it in the family...


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[Odysseus819]

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Re: Aragorn's Ancestors

Yes Indis was &quot;close kin&quot; to Ingwë according to The Silm, but according to the post I referred to above she was not DESCENDED from Ingwë -- so neither was Aragorn I guess. It was a nice theory because it ties all the lines neatly together in Eldarion, but it doesn't seem quite accurate.

NOTE: I don't think Aragorn was descended from Olwë, but Arwen was, thus their son Eldarion (meaning: &quot;descended from the Eldar&quot was the one who really would have united all 4 lines -- except Ingwë seems to be the square peg that won't fit.

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[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Aragorn's Ancestors

Indis was either Ingwe's sister, or Ingwe's sister's daughter (JRRT gives two versions). Arwen is directly descended from Olwe through her mother Celebrian. Galadriel the mother of Celebrian is the daughter of Earwen whose father is Olwe. I laid out an extensive 'Genealogy of the Eldar' in the 'Canon' forum. Read it if you are interested.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Imp]

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....

Its not really incest... keep in mind all this is for thousands of years.

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[Lady Eowyn]

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Re: ....

This is sooooooo confusing, my head's spinning.
Gotta agree on the incest stuff.
It would only be incest if they'd be brother and sister or 1st cousins....

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

[Odysseus819]

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Re: ....

Can no one help out and trace Aragorn back to Ingwë? It would tie everything up so neatly (Aragorn descended from Ingwë, Elwë and Finwë, and Arwen descended from Olwë) !

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[Orald]

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Re: ....

ACtually Aragorn decended from Olwë as well. And Arwen decended from Elwë and Finwë.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Odysseus819]

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Re: ....

Which wd mean that Aragorn was descended from all 4 of the elven kings of ancient days, if only he cd be traced to Ingwë . . . but I guess I'll let this thread die.

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[Tar Elenion]

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Re: ....

Aragorn was not decended from Olwe. He was descended from Finwe and Elwe (and Elmo the brother of Elwe and Olwe). Arwen was descended from Olwe through Galadriel. As Aragorn was not descended from the Finarfinian House only the Fingolfinian House he was not descended from Olwe. The closest direct descent to Ingwe known is both Aragorn and Arwen are descended from Ingwe's sister.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Orald]

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Re: ....

Who am I thinking of then, hmm. need to take a look at my genealogy tables. Oh well, from this Aragorn was decended from Olwë's and Elwë's(and Elmo's) mother and father, amd perhaps Ingwë's as well.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Michael Martinez]

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Re: ....

There is no documentation which shows that Ingwe's lineage descended among Men. It might be possible that Tolkien would have considered making Elenwe, wife of Turgon, a descendant of Ingwe. She did come of the Vanyar and probably was the daughter of a Vanyarin lord. But as the Noldor had many princely families, it seems possible the Vanyar would have had several princely families, too.

Olwe's descendants through his daughter Earwen were the children of Finarfin, of whom only Galadriel had descendants among Men. Arwen was her grand-daughter and therefore all of Aragorn and Arwen's children were descendants of Olwe, but he was not.

Tolkien made the statement, in Appendix A, that after the Fall of Gil-galad the last descendants of the high kings in Middle-earth were to be found only in the descendants of Elrond and Elros. Galadriel was not the daughter of a high king, although she was the daughter of the third King of the Noldor in Aman (Finarfin). Some people hold that he would be the fourth King of the Noldor, since Fingolfin had ruled the Noldor of Tirion while Feanor and Finwe were living in exile in Formenos.

Anyway, it may be this statement or a similar one which confuses some people. All three of the royal families of the Eldar were represented in the descendants of Elros, but those descendants could not claim Ingwe as an ancestor.

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[Tar Elenion]

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Re: ....

---------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Tolkien made the statement, in Appendix A, that after the Fall of Gil-galad the last descendants of the high kings in Middle-earth were to be found only in the descendants of Elrond and Elros.
-------------------------------------

Actually it says &quot;...after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants.&quot; Which is slightly different.

------------------------------------------
Quote:
Galadriel was not the daughter of a high king, although she was the daughter of the third King of the Noldor in Aman (Finarfin). Some people hold that he would be the fourth King of the Noldor, since Fingolfin had ruled the Noldor of Tirion while Feanor and Finwe were living in exile in Formenos.
------------------------------------------

First King of the Noldor: Finwe.
Next person called King of the Noldor: Fingolfin
Feanor is never said to be King of the Noldor (it only states he claimed this title, and it states that the majority of the Noldor did not accept this claim and refused to renounce Fingolfin (who also claimed the title).
Finarfin is not ever called King of the Noldor, (though he did rule the Noldor left in Aman after he abandoned the Flight).

------------------------------------
Quote:
Anyway, it may be this statement or a similar one which confuses some people. All three of the royal families of the Eldar were represented in the descendants of Elros, but those descendants could not claim Ingwe as an ancestor.
---------------------------------------

Probably this one: &quot;When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwe, Finwe, and Olwe and Elwe were untied and alone preserved in Middle-earth&quot;, Shibboleth of Feanor.
Of course there is no known descent from Ingwe. Only from Ingwe's sister.







Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Michael Martinez]

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Re: ....

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> First King of the Noldor: Finwe.
Next person called King of the Noldor: Fingolfin
Feanor is never said to be King of the Noldor (it only states he claimed this title, and it states that the majority of the Noldor did not accept this claim and refused to renounce Fingolfin (who also claimed the title).
Finarfin is not ever called King of the Noldor, (though he did rule the Noldor left in Aman after he abandoned the Flight).<hr></blockquote>

We just went through this on Xenite.Org's Tolkien and Inklings forum!

I thought I had given sufficient proofs to show that Feanor was indeed King of the Noldor. Maedhros, after all, could not have ceded his claim to the kingship if he hadn't inherited one from hs father. And the text states clearly that &quot;therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of Feanor were called the Dispossessed, because the overlordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elende and in Beleriand&quot;.

Who is called exactly what is being way too picky. All these people were, in fact, King of the Noldor and/or King of the Noldor-in-Exile. The Silmarillion says clearly that &quot;Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm&quot;. If Fingolfin, who is only said to have &quot;ruled the Noldor in Tirion&quot;, was a King of the Noldor even after Feanor claimed the Kingship, then so, too, was Finarfin.

Tolkien did not anticipate that someday there would be any demand he provide the precise wording &quot;Finarfin was King of the Noldor in Aman&quot; and &quot;Maedhros inherited the Kingship from his father Feanor.&quot;



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[Tar Elenion]

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Re: ....

--------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
We just went through this on Xenite.Org's Tolkien and Inklings forum!
------------------------------------
I've been going through it elsewhere recently as well.
Must be some sort of cycle. But the debate is interesting enough to be in several forums.

-------------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
I thought I had given sufficient proofs to show that Feanor was indeed King of the Noldor. Maedhros, after all, could not have ceded his claim to the kingship if he hadn't inherited one from hs father. And the text states clearly that &quot;therefore even as Mandos foretold the House of Feanor were called the Dispossessed, because the overlordship passed from it, the elder, to the house of Fingolfin, both in Elende and in Beleriand&quot;.
---------------------------------------------

I thought I had given sufficent proof to show that there were rival claimants to the title, but no (generally) accepted King until Fingolfin was 'elected' (or whatever) by the 'council of princes' (as it were).
Of course the 'Overlordship' had passed in Elende when Finwe held himself 'unkinged' at the banishment of Feanor, and Fingolfin took up the rule in his place.

-----------------------------------
Quote:
&quot;Finarfin was set to rule the remnant of the Noldor in the Blessed Realm&quot;. If Fingolfin, who is only said to have &quot;ruled the Noldor in Tirion&quot;, was a King of the Noldor even after Feanor claimed the Kingship, then so, too, was Finarfin.
------------------------------------------

I don't think I have said that Fingolfin was King of the Noldor when he ruled the Noldor of Tirion. He was (as I see it) High Prince (as was Feanor), and essentially 'regent' for the 'unkinged' Finwe. JRRT did mention Fingolfin's &quot;kingship&quot; in reference to the rule of the Noldor after Finwe 'unkinged' himself, but this was in 'Quenta Silmarillion', and he seems to have abandoned using the term in his later rewrites. This is the overall context I am looking at. Finwe was King. Finwe held himself unkinged. But he was still considered King until he died. When he died there were two rival claims of Kingship. Feanor who was the eldest of the House; and Fingolfin who had been ruling the Noldor in Finwe's stead. These rival claims were not settled until Feanor died, and Fingolfin was the only (active) claimant left.


----------------------------------------
Quote:
Tolkien did not anticipate that someday there would be any demand he provide the precise wording &quot;Finarfin was King of the Noldor in Aman&quot; and &quot;Maedhros inherited the Kingship from his father Feanor.&quot;
----------------------------------------

Probably not, but Maedhros is not said to have inherited the Kingship. Maedhros says the Kingship is Fingolfin's by right. Also &quot;after the death of Feanor the overlordship of the Exiles passed to Fingolfin (save among the followers of Feanor's sons)&quot;. This does not say that Maedhros was inherited the Kingship either (what he inherited was a claim). It seems to say that after Feanor died Fingolfin was the rightful ruler (though some Feanorians did not accept this, but then they never had, and some still were unwilling, even after Maedhros said Fingolfin was the rightful King, and did not press his _claim_ to the Kingship, again he only had a claim, not the title.




Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 3/20/01 10:57:10 pm

[Michael Martinez]

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Re: ....

Except for Maedhros, we may actually be closer in opinion than I thought. And though it may appear from reading only The Silmarillion that very little time passed between the death of Feanor and the arrival of Fingolfin, it was a period of several years (of the sun). Maedhros was the rightful king for quite some time, especially given that his captivity lasted quite a while, too.

I don't have time to look up the calendar dates now, but I can try to do it later if someone is really interested.

And I think we've summarized our positions in the debate well enough. I still have a lot of things to attend to right now.

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[lindil]

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the Noldorin High-Kings

Tar elenion said:&quot;I don't think I have said that Fingolfin was King of the Noldor when
he ruled the Noldor of Tirion. He was (as I see it) High Prince (as
was Feanor), and essentially 'regent' for the 'unkinged' Finwe. JRRT
did mention Fingolfin's &quot;kingship&quot; in reference to the rule of the
Noldor after Finwe 'unkinged' himself, but this was in 'Quenta
Silmarillion', and he seems to have abandoned using the term in his
later rewrites. This is the overall context I am looking at. Finwe was
King. Finwe held himself unkinged. But he was still considered King
until he died. When he died there were two rival claims of Kingship.
Feanor who was the eldest of the House; and Fingolfin who had been
ruling the Noldor in Finwe's stead. These rival claims were not settled
until Feanor died, and Fingolfin was the only (active) claimant left. &quot;

I think the idea of high prince is accurate as Finwe was still alive and had not stated any intention to abandon the kingship after Feanor's exile was over.

&quot;Tar elenion again:&quot;These rival claims were not settled
until Feanor died, and Fingolfin was the only (active) claimant left. &quot;

I would side w/ Michel here I think. Maedhros would have been ruling as King until his capture as the Feanorian Noldor did not anticipate any more Noldor showing up. they would have gone ahead w/ a gov't w/ out anythought of Fingolfin.

So I see no other conclusion than that Maedhros was ceding the title of King of King of the feanorian Noldor to Fingolfin.



Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Kingship

-----------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I would side w/ Michel here I think. Maedhros would have been ruling as King until his capture as the Feanorian Noldor did not anticipate any more Noldor showing up. they would have gone ahead w/ a gov't w/ out anythought of Fingolfin.
------------------------------------------

Maedhros would have ruled the Feanorians until his capture, yes. But this is the same as with Feanor as I have mentioned earlier. The Feanorians accepted Feanor's _claim_, but the majority of the Noldor did not. When Feanor died the Feanorians may have considered Maedhros to be rightfully the (or their) King, but he was not 'THE King of the Noldor'. Maedhros is only said to relinquish up his _claim_ to the Kingship of the Noldor (as a whole), he is not said to possess the Kingship itself (or relinquish it).

------------------------------------------
Quote:
So I see no other conclusion than that Maedhros was ceding the title of King of King of the feanorian Noldor to Fingolfin.
------------------------------------------

He was relinquishing his claim to the title of King of the Noldor. He remained cheiftain of the Feanorians, and was _a_ king of the Noldor, as were, for example, Turgon and Finrod.

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[Michael Martinez]

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Re: Kingship

It is nowhere stated that Maedhros was chieftain of the Feanorians. Furthermore, it is nowhere stated that he had any claim to a chieftainship.

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[lindil]

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Kings

I agree that maedhros would not have been King of all the Noldor prior to the arrival of Fingolfin and co. , as Finarfin was king of the Noldor in Valinor.

I can not but see that Maedhros would have been, if only for a brief time King of the Noldor of Beleriand.
There was no contest of this until the remaining Noldor arrived.

The term High-King of the Noldor would not belong to him as there had been no setting up of seperate kingdoms as in the time of the seige


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[Orald]

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Re: Kings

Lindil I think is correct on this one. Before the rest of the Noldor entered into Beleriand, Maedhros would have have become King, or Ruler if more appropriate(yet still the same), after Feanor died, and up at least until the time of Maedhros' capture, no matter how brief it was, because premagentiture seemed to be the way of things.
And Lindil sums up everything else that I have been thinking, which I assumed to be right until this thread.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Kings

-----------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I agree that maedhros would not have been King of all the Noldor prior to the arrival of Fingolfin and co. , as Finarfin was king of the Noldor in Valinor.
--------------------------------------------

(Ignoring the Noldor who remained in Valinor under the rule of Finarfin)
Fingolfin had most of the Noldor with him and accepting his rule. Maedhros would just have been in charge of the Feanorian Noldor. He did not rule nor was he acknoweldged as the lord of majority of the Noldor. JRRT wrote that after Feanor's death the ovelordship of the Noldor passed to Fingolfin (see above posts for cite).


-----------------------------------------
Quothe Lindil:
I can not but see that Maedhros would have been, if only for a brief time King of the Noldor of Beleriand.
There was no contest of this until the remaining Noldor arrived.
-----------------------------------------

That he ruled a certain segment of the Noldor (the Feanorians) after the death of Feanor is not disputed. What seems to be being discussed (or what I have been addressing) is not whether Maedhros was '_A_ King of the Noldor', but rather '_THE_ King of the Noldor', upon the death of Feanor. He only relinquished his _claim_ to being _THE_ King (in favour of Fingolfin's more 'rightful' claim), not the kingship itself (which he did not have.


--------------------------------
Quote:
The term High-King of the Noldor would not belong to him as there had been no setting up of seperate kingdoms as in the time of the seige
-----------------------------------

Quite right. Even Finwe was not High King of the Noldor. He was 'Noldoran', King of the Noldor, as there were not seperate kingdoms under his rule. Fingolfin was the first High King of the Noldor (which is an exilic title). Oddly enough I posted a similar statement on anothe board where I am having this debate an hour or so ago.




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[Tar Elenion]

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Kings

----------------------------------------
Quothe Durelen:
Lindil I think is correct on this one. Before the rest of the Noldor entered into Beleriand, Maedhros would have have become King, or Ruler if more appropriate(yet still the same), after Feanor died, and up at least until the time of Maedhros' capture, no matter how brief it was, because premagentiture seemed to be the way of things.
----------------------------------------

Although JRRT says that after Feanor's death the ovelordship passed to Fingolfin (see above for cite).
The Feanorians (or some portion thereof) were reluctant to accept this, and Maedhros only ruled them.
Actually the (or one) root of the Noldorin dispute on the Kingship seems to be whether or not primogeniture was the way. There do not seem to have been any well defined rules on the passing of the Kingship, perhaps because it had not happened before (and of course Finwe was the first Eldarin King to die). Feanor seemed to think this should be the way, but after his death the Kingship passed to the eldest surviving male of Finwe's House (excluding the dispossessed Feanorians), which seemed to be Maedhros take on it.


</p>

[Michael Martinez]

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Posts: 20</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Fingolfin had most of the Noldor with him and accepting his rule. Maedhros would just have been in charge of the Feanorian Noldor. He did not rule nor was he acknoweldged as the lord of majority of the Noldor. JRRT wrote that after Feanor's death the ovelordship of the Noldor passed to Fingolfin (see above posts for cite).<hr></blockquote>

The divisions of the Noldor at this point were not clearly stipulated. Feanor had stranded Fingolfin with all the Noldor whom he felt he could not trust. In fact, since Fingon had rushed to Feanor's aid at Alqualonde, it is apparent that Feanor was stilled acknowledged as king by all the Noldor (on the march).

That some of the Noldor of Tirion didn't want Feanor as their king doesn't mean they renounced him.



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[Michael Martinez]

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Re: Kings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Although JRRT says that after Feanor's death the ovelordship passed to Fingolfin (see above for cite).
The Feanorians (or some portion thereof) were reluctant to accept this, and Maedhros only ruled them.
Actually the (or one) root of the Noldorin dispute on the Kingship seems to be whether or not primogeniture was the way. There do not seem to have been any well defined rules on the passing of the Kingship, perhaps because it had not happened before (and of course Finwe was the first Eldarin King to die). Feanor seemed to think this should be the way, but after his death the Kingship passed to the eldest surviving male of Finwe's House (excluding the dispossessed Feanorians), which seemed to be Maedhros take on it.<hr></blockquote>

Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.

The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.

I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships. When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).

Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.

The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people. Finarfin's kingship was established by the Valar (apparently).

Consolidating all the claims of royality in Fingolfin gave the Noldor some necessary unity, but it didn't prevent them from expanding outward and establishing new realms. The High Kingship was thus the successor of the line of authority which had come to Fingolfin.

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[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Kingship

------------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
It is nowhere stated that Maedhros was chieftain of the Feanorians. Furthermore, it is nowhere stated that he had any claim to a chieftainship.
-----------------------------------------

&quot;This was especially the case in Doriath, where King Thingol was hostile to the Noldorin chieftains, Feanor and his sons, and Fingolfin, because of their assault upon the Teleri in Aman...&quot;.
War of the Jewels




Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 3/21/01 11:35:40 pm

[Michael Martinez]

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Re: Kingship

Like I said, it is nowhere stated that Maedhros was chieftain of the Feanorians, or that he had any claim to a chieftainship.



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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000101>Michael Martinez</A> at: 3/21/01 11:42:07 pm

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 65</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kings

----------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
The divisions of the Noldor at this point were not clearly stipulated. Feanor had stranded Fingolfin with all the Noldor whom he felt he could not trust.
-----------------------------------------

&quot;And indeed when Feanor began the marshalling of the Noldor for their setting-out, then at once dissention arose. For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Feanor as King. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him if he would go with them; and thus at the lastas two divided hosts the Noldor set forth upon their bitter road. Feanor and his following were in the van, but the greater host came behind under Fingolfin...&quot;
The Silmarillion


----------------------------------------
Quote:
In fact, since Fingon had rushed to Feanor's aid at Alqualonde, it is apparent that Feanor was stilled acknowledged as king by all the Noldor (on the march).
---------------------------------------------------

Fingon and the vangaurd of Fingolfin's host &quot;...found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar.&quot;
The Silmarillion
Fingon went to the aid of his _kin_, not his _King_.

-------------------------------------
Quote:
That some of the Noldor of Tirion didn't want Feanor as their king doesn't mean they renounced him.
---------------------------------------
The greater part of the Noldor refused to renounce Fingolfin (see above quote). They did not have to renounce Feanor, they just did not accept his claim.



Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Michael Martinez]

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Posts: 23</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ----------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
The divisions of the Noldor at this point were not clearly stipulated. Feanor had stranded Fingolfin with all the Noldor whom he felt he could not trust.
-----------------------------------------

&quot;And indeed when Feanor began the marshalling of the Noldor for their setting-out, then at once dissention arose. For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Feanor as King. Greater love was given to Fingolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him if he would go with them; and thus at the lastas two divided hosts the Noldor set forth upon their bitter road. Feanor and his following were in the van, but the greater host came behind under Fingolfin...&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Wrong divisions of the Noldor. Look at the passage where Feanor abandons the majority in Araman. The fleet was manned &quot;only by those who had fought&quot; at Alqualonde. That could include some of Fingon's warriors, though not Fingon himself.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ----------------------------------------
Quote:
In fact, since Fingon had rushed to Feanor's aid at Alqualonde, it is apparent that Feanor was stilled acknowledged as king by all the Noldor (on the march).
---------------------------------------------------

Fingon and the vangaurd of Fingolfin's host &quot;...found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor at the bidding of the Valar.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

Unless someone forgot to tell Fingon that Feanor had led the way, it's pretty certain he had a good idea of whom he was helping.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Quote:
That some of the Noldor of Tirion didn't want Feanor as their king doesn't mean they renounced him.
---------------------------------------
The greater part of the Noldor refused to renounce Fingolfin (see above quote). They did not have to renounce Feanor, they just did not accept his claim.<hr></blockquote>

But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).

In fact, the text doesn't even say that anyone took Fingolfin as king:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> And indeed when Feanor began the marshalling of the Noldor for their setting-out, then at once dissension arose. For though he had brought the assembly in a mind to depart, by no means all were of a mind to take Feanor as King. Greater love was given to Finfgolfin and his sons, and his household and the most part of the dwellers in Tirion refused to renounce him, if he would go with them; and thus at last as two divided hosts the Noldor set forth upon their bitter road....

But even as the trumpet sang and Feanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwe....

But Feanor laughed, and spoke not to the herald, but to the Noldor, saying: 'So! Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only, and return to their bondage?...'

In that hour the voice of Feanor grew so great and so potent that even the herald of the Valar bowed before him as one full-answered, and departed; and the Noldor were over-ruled....<hr></blockquote>

No mention of Fingolfin's kingship or claim to kingship at all. There was only one person claiming to be the heir of the King of the Noldor: Feanor.

Feanor alone heralded his departure (with the blowing of the trumpet). Fingolfin only heralded his arrival in Middle-earth.

So it's quite clear that there was ever only one King of the Noldor at a time in Aman: Finwe, and then Feanor.

Fingolfin's kinship began with Feanor's desertion.

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[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
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Re: Kings

---------------------------------------
Quothe Michael Martinez:
Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.
-------------------------------------------
&quot;(after Morgoth had contived the murder of Finwe) Feanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin, the eldest son of Indis ... and in spite of the enmity between him and Feanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor.&quot;
PoME.


---------------------------------------------
Quote:
The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.
---------------------------------------------
Refer to quote in above post.

-----------------------------------------
Quote:
I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships.
------------------------------------------
I have posted on the contextual changes of Fingolfin's kingship (or lack thereof) in Tirion above.

Refer to above quote in this post and:
&quot;Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance to his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe, and so enraged Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.&quot;
PoME

-------------------------------------------
Quote:
When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).
-----------------------------------------------

Or a great captain and chieftain, even acting as a king, but who wants to be THE King.

-----------------------------------------------
Quote:
Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.
---------------------------------------------

Maedhros 'waived his _claim_ to kingship over ALL the Noldor'. He established _A_ kingship over part of the Noldor.



--------------------------------------------
Quote:
The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people.
--------------------------------------------

Authority passes from Finwe to the rival claimants (Feanor and Fingolfin). Feanor who has already claimed the Kingship does not refer to himself as King when speaking to the Noldor when they are stopped by the Herald of the Valar: &quot;Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only?&quot;.
Interesting. He does not ask the Noldor if they will send forth their King, but only the 'heir' of their King. Why if he was actually their King does he not calll himself that? Because he was claiming the title, but had not been accepted as such?

----------------------------------
Quote:
Consolidating all the claims of royality in Fingolfin gave the Noldor some necessary unity, but it didn't prevent them from expanding outward and establishing new realms. The High Kingship was thus the successor of the line of authority which had come to Fingolfin.
--------------------------------------

No debate there, we both know we agree on this.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 67</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kings

------------------------------
Quote:
Wrong divisions of the Noldor. Look at the passage where Feanor abandons the majority in Araman. The fleet was manned &quot;only by those who had fought&quot; at Alqualonde. That could include some of Fingon's warriors, though not Fingon himself
------------------------------------------

Correct divisions. In context the quote reads &quot; it came into the hearts of Feanor and his sons to seize all the ships and depart suddenly; for they had retained mastery of the fleet since the battle of the haven, and it was manned only by those who fought there AND WERE BOUND to Feanor&quot;, emphasis mine. Not only did they have to fight at Alqualonde, they had to be BOUND to Feanor, this would make them 'Feanorians'.


------------------------------------------
Quote:
Unless someone forgot to tell Fingon that Feanor had led the way, it's pretty certain he had a good idea of whom he was helping.
------------------------------------------

Fingon went to the aid of his kin. Feanor was his uncle and hence his kin.

------------------------------------------
Quote:
But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).
----------------------------------------------

As I have said Fingolfin was not the King at this time (see above posts). However see the above post for quotes indicating his claims to the Kingship.


-----------------------------------------------
Quote:
&lt;snip quote&gt;
No mention of Fingolfin's kingship or claim to kingship at all. There was only one person claiming to be the heir of the King of the Noldor: Feanor.
-----------------------------------------------

See quotes in above post.

------------------------------------
Quote:
So it's quite clear that there was ever only one King of the Noldor at a time in Aman: Finwe, and then Feanor.
-----------------------------------------

Finwe, then two rival claimants to the Kingship. Both claimed the Kingship of all the Noldor. Neither had it until after Feanor died, and Fingolfin was 'elected' (or whatever) by the 'council of princes' and became King of the Noldor.






Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>

[lindil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 508</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Kings

Michael:
Maedhros was clearly ging to be ina position of leadership amongst the feanorians prior to Fingolfin's arrival and subsequent to Feanor' eath. How could he not be the leader of the feanorians? He it was the created the Union of Maedhros centuries later, the act of a leader, it is usually he who speaks for the Sons [w/ Celegorm and Curufin sniping on the sidelines].He is certainly seen as the cheif negotiator in the events that led to his capture. That he would not have been ruling in some capacity the feanorans is rather unlikely. As I stated before the Feanorians were not expecting any other Noldor to arrive, why would they not have taken Maedhros aas King of the Noldor of Middle-Earth?
who else was a candidate? surely not a younger brother! The only other possibility is that Maedhros did not pursue the Kingship out of a certain nobility of spirit which he often exhibted. The Noldor certanly would have needed some central leadership if only to post guards and send out scouts and organize dwellings and such.

MM:&quot;But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be
king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).
lindil: but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]
It is this rulership [ prince almost certainly ] that the majority of Noldor do not wish to renounce. Most held him as king in spite of Feanor, Fingolfin was undoubtedly feeling constrained by his word of honour given before Manwe to follow Feanor. But prob. did little to dispel the authority he had had as ruler of the Noldor of Tirion. Feanor prob. mistrusted Fingolfin all along for this.




Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his new discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Michael Martinez]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 24</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kings

So, if The Silmarillion won't serve we're just going to jump around from text to text? I'll accept going forward, but not going back. Since you've jumped to The Peoples of Middle-earth I insist we stay there, or go back to The Silmarillion.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Quothe Michael Martinez:
Finfgolfin did not claim any kingship upon his father's death.
-------------------------------------------
&quot;(after Morgoth had contived the murder of Finwe) Feanor was deprived of the leadership, and the greater part of the Noldor who forsook Valinor marched under the command of Fingolfin, the eldest son of Indis ... and in spite of the enmity between him and Feanor he joined with full will in the rebellion and the exile, though he continued to claim the kingship of all the Noldor.&quot;
PoME.<hr></blockquote>

Which Christopher points out is in conflict with what is written in &quot;the final story&quot; (on page 361 in end note 32 -- references are to &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; unless otherwise stated):

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> [It is said in the text at this point that Fingolfin claimed to be 'the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe', and the same was said in the essay proper (p. 336). All the texts agree that after the banishment of Feanor from Tirion, and the departure of Finwe with him to Formenos, Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion; and it was said in the Quenta Silmarillion (see IV.95), V.235) that afterwards, when the Flight of the Noldor began, those of Tirion 'would not now renounce the kingship of Fingolfin'. On the other hand, in the final story of the events leading to the Flight, when Feanor and Fingolfin had become half-brothers, they were reconciled 'in word' before the throne of Manwe at the fateful festival; and in that reconciliation Fingolfin said to Feanor: 'Thou shalt lead and I will follow' (see X.197, 287).]<hr></blockquote>

The note follows on the text where Tolkien wrote:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ...Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwe to Nolofinwe before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwe, and so enraqed Feanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships. The prefixion in the case of Finarfin was made by Finrod only after the death of Fingolfin in single combat with Morgoth. The Noldor then became divided into separate kingships under Fingon son of Fingolfin, Turgon his younger brother, Maedhros son of Feanor, and Finrod son of Arfin; and the following of Finrod had become the greatest.<hr></blockquote>

So there are some serious problems for your case here if you're going to insist on using the Shibboleth as a basis for your argument.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Quote:
The divisions of the Noldor appear to derive from Feanor's own actions and choices.
---------------------------------------------
Refer to quote in above post.<hr></blockquote>

Which has nothing to do with the point I made.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Quote:
I believe that Fingolfin was in fact a king after Feanor abandoned him in Araman. It's not clear that Fingolfin's first rule over the Noldor was as king, or that he ever claimed to be a king until Feanor stole the ships.
------------------------------------------
I have posted on the contextual changes of Fingolfin's kingship (or lack thereof) in Tirion above.<hr></blockquote>

I have pointed out your errors and the problems with your sources.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> -------------------------------------------
Quote:
When Fingolfin's host entered Middle-earth, however, he unfurled his banners and had his trumpets sounded. This appears to be the action of a king (note Aragorn's march on Mordor displays similar claims of authority).
-----------------------------------------------

Or a great captain and chieftain, even acting as a king, but who wants to be THE King.<hr></blockquote>

There are no texts where any great captains or chieftains do such a thing. The unfurling of banners and sounding of trumpets (and procession of heralds, for that matter) is clearly a royal prerogative in Tolkien. Captains act on behalf of their leaders, not in their own rights.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> -----------------------------------------------
Quote:
Maedhros, however, was being diplomatic and trying to heal the division of his people. Ceding the kingship to Fingolfin was a significant act. He clearly was able to establish a new kingship (as were Turgon and Finrod) a year or two later.
---------------------------------------------

Maedhros 'waived his _claim_ to kingship over ALL the Noldor'. He established _A_ kingship over part of the Noldor.<hr></blockquote>

In the context I provided WAY UP ABOVE, that is, The Silmarillion, Maedhros was king the moment his father died. Fingolfin's kingship appears to have begun when Feanor abandoned him, but Maedhros was still, technically, the heir of Finwe.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> --------------------------------------------
Quote:
The line of authority thus passes from Finwe to Feanor, from Feanor to Maedhros, and from Maedhros to Fingolfin. But in the meantime, new lines of authority were established by Fingolfin and Finarfin. Fingolfin's kingship was established by the fact that Feanor abandoned most of his people.
--------------------------------------------

Authority passes from Finwe to the rival claimants (Feanor and Fingolfin). Feanor who has already claimed the Kingship does not refer to himself as King when speaking to the Noldor when they are stopped by the Herald of the Valar: &quot;Then will this valiant people send forth the heir of their King alone into banishment with his sons only?&quot;.

Interesting. He does not ask the Noldor if they will send forth their King, but only the 'heir' of their King. Why if he was actually their King does he not calll himself that? Because he was claiming the title, but had not been accepted as such?<hr></blockquote>

No, authority passes to Feanor, as I stipulated. You're trying to bring in a secondary and contradictory text which is (on the points of kingships) largely incompatible with The Silmarillion.

We weren't speaking of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; we were speaking of The Silmarillion. Big difference there. You would do well to disallow your unannounced shift of context since it's landed your argument in a mire of contradictions.

Fingolfin did not inherit his authority from Finwe in either account, that of The Silmarillion or that of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. The Shibboleth does attempt to explain his name in a new context, but in constructing that context tears down other themes (the kingships established by Maedhros, Turgon, and Finrod early in the First Age) which are firmly embedded in the texts.

We are both dancing on pinheads here. My initial point stands because I had clearly indicated I was using The Silmarillion as a source. Bringing in a secondary source to rebut The Silmarillion is only useful if the secondary source is both authoritative and coherent, not to mention with related texts. In this case there is neither authority for the Shibboleth (because it contradicts everything else) nor even coherence.

The Shibboleth is useful for explaining J.R.R. Tolkien's latest thoughts on matters, and for clarifying issues where Christopher's editorializing suborned his father's thought (such as the parentage of Gil-galad).

If we hop all through the various texts, you or I could stay one jump ahead of one another but we'd never be addressing the same story.

In The Silmarillion, the kingship remained with Finwe until he died, and then passed to Feanor, and then a new kingship began with Finarfin (after he turned back) and with Fingolfin (after Feanor abandoned him), and then the original kingship passed to Maedhros, who ceded it to Fingolfin.


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[Michael Martinez]

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Re: Kings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ------------------------------
Quote:
Wrong divisions of the Noldor. Look at the passage where Feanor abandons the majority in Araman. The fleet was manned &quot;only by those who had fought&quot; at Alqualonde. That could include some of Fingon's warriors, though not Fingon himself
------------------------------------------

Correct divisions.<hr></blockquote>

No, they are the WRONG divisions because I raised the point and I know darned good and well what I was referring to. I have explained what I was referring to. Thank you for not rewriting what I say.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ------------------------------------------
Quote:
Unless someone forgot to tell Fingon that Feanor had led the way, it's pretty certain he had a good idea of whom he was helping.
------------------------------------------

Fingon went to the aid of his kin. Feanor was his uncle and hence his kin.<hr></blockquote>

Everyone knew Feanor was in the lead. The book states quite clearly that Fingon thought the Noldor were being attacked, and that included Feanor.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> -----------------------------------------------
Quote:
&lt;snip quote&gt;
No mention of Fingolfin's kingship or claim to kingship at all. There was only one person claiming to be the heir of the King of the Noldor: Feanor.
-----------------------------------------------

See quotes in above post.<hr></blockquote>

See response to the quotes.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ------------------------------------
Quote:
So it's quite clear that there was ever only one King of the Noldor at a time in Aman: Finwe, and then Feanor.
-----------------------------------------

Finwe, then two rival claimants to the Kingship. Both claimed the Kingship of all the Noldor. Neither had it until after Feanor died, and Fingolfin was 'elected' (or whatever) by the 'council of princes' and became King of the Noldor.<hr></blockquote>

No. Finwe, then Feanor.

I'm actually quite satisfied to stay with the text I was discussing originally&quot; The Silmarillion. Staying in context is the only way to keep any meaning to this discussion.


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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000101>Michael Martinez</A> at: 3/22/01 2:24:44 am

[Michael Martinez]

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Re: Kings

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Michael:
Maedhros was clearly ging to be ina position of leadership amongst the feanorians prior to Fingolfin's arrival and subsequent to Feanor' eath. How could he not be the leader of the feanorians?<hr></blockquote>

Maehdros is not a &quot;chieftain&quot; in The Silmarillion. There is no such title and I was merely flinging Tar-Elenion's nit-picking back at him over the absence of words in the text (which is why we suddenly found ourselves in a discussion of &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; -- conveniently, the word &quot;chieftain&quot; may be found there).

Maedhros is first named as a prince (see the chapter &quot;Of Eldamar and the princes of the Eldalie&quot. Later on he becomes a king. He is never a chieftain.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> MM:&quot;But Fingolfin had not been acknowledged as king or declared to be king, and had not claimed the kingship (or any kingship).

lindil: but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]<hr></blockquote>

Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion. That was the point of the entire exercise.

There was only one king at the time: Feanor.


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[lindil]

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the debate turns canonical

lindil: &quot;but he had been ruling the Noldor of Tirion for
nigh in a decade [of Valinorean years?]&quot;




MM said;&quot; Show me where The Silmarillion says he was a king in Tirion.
That was the point of the entire exercise.&quot;

I brought that up to show that while he was not ruling as King [which I have conceded elsewhere]
it provides the context of how he was perceived as King in fact if not name from the time of Finwe's death.

I think the use of Peoples of M-E is valid all though we have to be clear re: dates and the lack of canonicity at this point for either [well not quite as I recall a post from a loooong time ago [in barrow time at least] where the 1977 Silm was seen as canon] but I think since then the level of education here at the downs has risen to a level where we can discuss the alternate versions, and the Silmarillion's non [or semi?]-canonical status w/out all the apples spilling from the cart.

It seems the final answer to Fingolfin as[claiming and being folowed as ] King [by the majority] in Valinor is yes from the PoME and no from the 77 well after looking over JRRT's PoME it is possible that he conceived of Fingolfin's ruling the Noldor as a kIngship ,btu he certainly never stated it a ssuch and it seems w/ the 77 and Morgoth's Ring versions he would have been renouncing any such claim before the throne of Manwe . this is to my mind a somewhat difficult situation.

As to which one should be seen as the 'canonical ' story [ assuming one accepts CRT's publicaly printing in HoME 11 that there are aspects of the work {the 77 Silm} that he 'views w/ regret'] there we enter into a whole new debate. and one that will have 'canonical'- textual ramifications.

I do [as do other veiwers not posting] find the whole thing fascinating even though I am not up to the speed of yourselves [Michael and Tar - Elenion], I do hope however that we can avoid loss of peace in the discussion [def. one of the most interesting in the Books forum in a while].





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[Michael Martinez]

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Re: the debate turns canonical

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I think the use of Peoples of M-E is valid all though we have to be clear re: dates and the lack of canonicity at this point for either [well not quite as I recall a post from a loooong time ago [in barrow time at least] where the 1977 Silm was seen as canon] but I think since then the level of education here at the downs has risen to a level where we can discuss the alternate versions, and the Silmarillion's non [or semi?]-canonical status w/out all the apples spilling from the cart.<hr></blockquote>

Lindil, The Peoples of Middle-earth is useful for dealing with issues of canon in The Silmarillion but not for dealing with issues of text in The Silmarillion.

You might as well quote Shakespeare.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It seems the final answer to Fingolfin as[claiming and being folowed as ] King [by the majority] in Valinor is yes from the PoME ....<hr></blockquote>

No. As I pointed out, there are serious problems with &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot; as the passages concerning Fingolfin's claims to kingship conflict with other traditions. The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; was an attempt to explain linguistic elements of names. Like &quot;The Problem of Ros&quot; it was composed independently of the primary tradition and where it conflicts with the canon (which in a general sense was &quot;fixed&quot; in Tolkien's work, though not necessarily his thoughts) then it fails, just as &quot;The Problem of Ros&quot; does.

There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts.

So, in the case of determining who had which children, the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; is useful. But it's not useful for determining who was king of what.

We can all easily contrive our own versions of The Silmarilion. We cannot, however, decide for J.R.R. Tolkien (or even Christopher Tolkien) that the primary texts are wrong.

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</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000101>Michael Martinez</A> at: 3/22/01 10:53:19 am

[Gilthalion]

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Re: the debate turns canonical

I appreciate Lindil's plea for a peaceful discussion, for I would not wish to see this one ended ended in anger. It is fascinating to one such as myself who does not have the resources you folk cite.

(It also seems to me that constructing a new Silmarillion is not &quot;easily contrive[d]&quot; however one goes about it!)

My questions for y'all are about the pragmatic issues (not that any of this has anything to do with the original question of the thread, which I think is answered):

What size populations are we discussing here, and how far were they separated? How much communication was there between them? How much did it really matter on a day-to-day/year-to-year basis to the elves which &quot;king&quot; or &quot;chieftain&quot; was named High King, or how long it took to resolve the issues?

Certainly, a population that had crossed the Helcaraxe, slain their kin at Aqualonde, and set off after Feanor against the wishes of the Valar, would have quite an interest in who their leader would be. But would they be willing to take a longer view of the settlement of such disputes (especially in light of their Enemy not so far away)? What was the actual role of the High King of the Noldor? How much autonomy did the lesser kings/chieftans have? How deeply was loyalty bestowed and to whom?

These are the things that this discussion makes me wonder...

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[Michael Martinez]

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Re: the debate turns canonical

I don't want to get angry and I don't want to put anyone in a bad light. Those late night messages can sometimes come across pretty rough, though, try as I might not to say anything offensive.

As far as the populations go, I can refer you to my Suite101 essay http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/54681Elves by the numbers</a>, but there are no definitive answers. Through the years I've had discussions with people over Elven populations and none of us has ever really come up with a satisfying way of estimating the Elven populations. Still, that essay represents my most recent take on the question.

How much the titles mattered would be, I think, mostly an issue of personal pride. And Tolkien did attribute or imply some stiff necks to Feanor and Fingolfin in &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. I don't believe he would have left matters as they were had he started tying all the threads together, but quite possibly he would have gone back and changed the primary texts to have Fingolfin asserting a claim to kingship prior to the departure from Tirion.

Pride makes a great stumbling block, and it would have made the dispute between Feanor and Fingolfin more poignant, I think, if they were both running around Aman claiming to be Finwe's heir.

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[lindil]

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canon and questions

MM said:&quot;The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A)
provides information which is not provided elsewhere without
conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which
Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than
to other texts.&quot;
lindil replies: While this is a resonable and arguable position it is not [I hope ] the only one.
I generally a have a few criteria for deciding the canonicity of a given point or text and that are similar to yours, but different in a couple of respects.
1] I don't cosider the Silm to be a 'primary text' [except in cases like Beren and Luthien where it virtually is the final form or ruin of doriath where the only other version is from the 30's]. I consider the versions in MR and WotJ and in some cases Lost Road to be the primary versions versions [ the non-Myth's Transformed versions } and while I put a great deal of weight behind CRT 's opinions and decisions he is since essentially having abandoned the Silm as a cohesive canon giving us dozens of alt. texts and no resolution to many matters and having not given us a complete and final account of just what about the Solm he would and would not keep, I propose more or less starting over w/ HoME as a base not the Silm as published.
2] I favor a later conception if it can be harmonized w/ out great damage to the story [thus MT fails in my and I believe I am correct in saying your opinion also] and while this Fingolfin as King conception creates difficulties for the MR and 77 versions , I am not sure yewt if they are to damaging to the text. They certainly give Feanor more reason [prideful ones I admit ] to have abandoned them and in general advances the subtlty and depth of the story. It is conceivable that since we don't know JRRt's mind as to wether he would have kept the setting aside of the sword - drawing by fingolfin and his words&quot; Thou shalt lead and I will folow.&quot; I think w/ out a deep exploration of the texts and it's implications
it might be conceivable to keep both. there is need for some exploration of all this on a closer level and I propose starting a thread in the Silm forum for the Canonical issues and keeping this one open to follow-up on Gilthalions excellent Q's .which are sme unvoiced q's of mine as well.
some of which Michael, I think you have researched before [elven populations].

My girls beckon so...











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