None that can hurt him?

[Fingolfin II]

This question has plagued me for some time, so I'll now put it to you and see if you have any ideas or comments about it.

In The Two Towers, just after Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli meet Gandalf the White in Fangorn Forest, Gandalf says-

'Get up; my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.' (emphasis mine)

That sentence which I highlighted in bold has been my dilemma. Legolas' bow and Gimli's axe may not be able to hurt Gandalf, but surely Anduril can? If Narsil could pierce Sauron so sufficiently as to destroy his body while he was wearing the Ring, surely Aragorn's sword could hurt Gandalf, a Maia of lesser power?

Perhaps Tolkien made an error here, or Gandalf forgot about Anduril or meant that if Aragorn swung at him with Anduril, he could block it with Glamdring or his staff. Or maybe he means that Narsil has lost it's potency over the years or that Gandalf cannot be defeated in his new form as Gandalf the White by any power in Middle-Earth. If the latter of my suppositions is true, then I assume it would also be true for Sauron at the height of his power during the Last Alliance when he wielded the One Ring. It is said that 'none could withstand Aeglos and Narsil', but if that's true, it also stands to reason that if Sauron took hurt from Narsil, so too would Gandalf. Any ideas?

[Oddwen]

Gandalf the White returned from the dead by the grace of the Valar, didn't he? He no doubt received some kind of power-up, since he was able to put down Saruman.
Sauron had fallen from the Valar's grace, and the Ring was made from his own power, not that of a higher being.

He lifted his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing to the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire.

Although -

And so am I, very dangerous; more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.

I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.

Those are against my theory.
Perhaps Anduril/Narsil is only "magical" against the foes of Gondor, as Sting, Glamdring and Orcrist glow blue only when Orcs are present.

[Boromir88]

There could be another possibility behind the quote you give too. Maybe, Anduril can hurt Gandalf, as in kill him. But, for Gandalf it doesn't really hurt him because he'll be reborn anyway. He'll be sent back to earth again, so technically it doesn't really hurt him.

These are just theories however

[Lolidir]

'Get up; my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.'

this takes place in Fangorn. when Gandalf meets them Aragorn does not yet have Anduril. he recieves it from Elrond's son (cant think of the name) at Dunharrow. so if you look at it, at the time none of them did carry a weapn that could hurt him. but that is a good question though. maybe Anduril could hurt him, but at that time of the book Aragorn did not have it. there is your answer

[HerenIstarion]

In the books, as opposed to the movie version, Aragorn has got Narsil's shards as early as his first appearence in Bree. In Rivendell, the swords is reforged and renamed. The event is even an indirect cause for Bilbo to give Frodo the Sting - Bilbo intending to have Frodo's broken sword reforged as well but forgetting about it.

So, Aragorn does have Andúril on him in Fangorn

The reason why Gandalf could not be hurt is probably (without textual evidence, but as plausible a theory as I could think of) the fact he is now 'clothed' maia, returned to his original form (though maybe spirit returned to his 'human' body lying on the summit of Redhorn), not fully and finally incarnate as he has been before. So even Andúril would not hurt him - how physical thing can harm spirit?

Why Andúril (or Narsil at its time) does work with Sauron (plus the Ring) is also explainable - Sauron is just recovering from his second loss of bodily form - what he rebuilt for himself is the 'true' flesh - he is incarnate, not able to 'shift' bodies anymore. If we stretch the thing a bit too far, in that state he may have been killed with a fork

perhaps aragorn was wary, because legolas's bow and gimli's axe had already been defeated. in that case, gandalf would simply have had to move his staff ever so slightly, and aragorn would fail. and also, Isildur would have been in fury, for his father had just recieved a fatal wound.

[Lolidir]

heres a thought. maybe he just says that to demonstrate his new level of power. there is a weapon that can defeat everyone so to say that there is none would be ignorant. maybe it was meant that if he died he would come back. so while we are throwing out ideas why not this one. meybe it was just a boast of his powers to give them some encouraging and some motivation to keep on with their task.

[Mad Baggins]

Perhaps he meant that, like Oddwen said, Anduril is only dangerous against evil beings. This could prove that although Aragorn believed that Gandalf was evil and had the intent to harm him, Anduril "knew" that Gandalf was not evil and therefore could not hurt him. It could also mean that Gandalf could defeat Anduril because it is (for lack of a better word) a "good" weapon and not an evil one of the same potency:

...Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by HI

The reason why Gandalf could not be hurt is probably (without textual evidence, but as plausible a theory as I could think of) the fact he is now 'clothed' maia, returned to his original form (though maybe spirit returned to his 'human' body lying on the summit of Redhorn), not fully and finally incarnate as he has been before. So even Andúril would not hurt him - how physical thing can harm spirit?

An interesting theory, no doubt. But isn't Gandalf the Gray Maia as well? The Istari (or you ) have only been commanded by the Valar not to show the true extent of their powers, among others. So they are residing in human flesh in the form of wizards, but their spirits are still Maiar nonetheless. And it is this fact that made Gandalf's "ascension" to the White possible; otherwise he would have remained in Caradhras, a wizard clothed in gray. Gandalf the White is still like the Gray, albeit of a higher power. He is still in the form of man, and can be killed. Perhaps it is just his greater power that could protect him from the three's attacks.

[radagastly]

But isn't Gandalf the Gray Maia as well?

Well, yes, he is, of course. Unfortunately, I'm at work right now and don't have my books with me, so I can't cite anything specific. I believe that the Wizards were not merely "clothed" in human form, but actually incarnate as human. They aged, they needed food and rest and water, they felt pain and discomfort. Gandalf died in his fight with the Balrog, and he died for real. A "clothed" Maia spirit would have simply shuffled off this mortal coil, so to speak, and headed back to Aman to pick up a new one, or made a new one for themselves right then and there. (I'm not sure how that works, exactly.)

Gandalf the WHITE , on the other hand, was indeed merely "clothed" in human form (possibly--I don't think there's any evidence to say for sure. I tend to think the line cited as the title of this thread implies that, though.) and as such, his body could be hurt, but he would not 'die' as he did in Moria. He would become an invisible spirit, as he was before.

I don't think I'm explaining this very well . . .

Oh, well. Did my best.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Gandalf the WHITE , on the other hand, was indeed merely "clothed" in human form ...

If this was the case, how come Pippin was able to take the Palantir of Orthanc from him while he slept? If he was merely "clothed" rather than incarnate, he would have no need of sleep. And I believe that he is referred to as eating in Minas Tirith too.

Based on this, I think that Lhuna is right. Gandalf the White was just as much incarnate as Gandalf the Grey.

[Lhunardawen]

I was preparing for my CbC post for "The White Rider" when I saw this...

...But we have One, the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss and they shall fear him.

This was said by Aragorn. I believe that with Gandalf's power came another that is completely opposite the Nazgul's. If their mere presence caused fear in the hearts of Men, so will Gandalf be feared by his enemies. This fear does not work for Aragorn and the rest, though...but his renewed (and greater) strength could have been enough to ward off their advances.

[Assasin]

When Gandalf got "re-alived" then he probably got some sort of heavy duty wizard battery too. He was brought back for a reason, so, he has to stay alive to fulfill it.

[Lolidir]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

with Gandalf's power came another that is completely opposite the Nazgul's.

so if Gandalf's new powers are the opposite of the Nazgul, therefore no ordinary weapons could hurt him. if Anduril couldnt hurt the Nazgul then it couldnt hurt Gandalf. right? who knows maybe it could because it could defeat the strongest of the enemy - Sauron. but it didnt say it could so that only leaves me to believe that it couldnt, and in that case couldnt kill Gandalf.

[Gil-Galad]

i actually agree with you there, but my theory on how it can hurt sauron is because after saurons original body died along with the fall of Numernore, Sauron became a lesser Maia, and with his "death" he lost his invulnerability

[Lolidir]

honestly i havent gotten around to reading the other books like The Silmarillion and some of the other history books ( i know it is a crime, but i have school books to read, what can i say) and since i havent read those others i dont know to much about anything. but i would have to agree with you on that one. which in that case is the reason that it hurts him. and it doesnt hurt the Nazgul because they are wraiths.

[Fingolfin II]

Some good ideas here, thanks for the replies! I'm probably more inclined to agree with Lhuna, though Heren's theory strikes well to me also. Either way, I'm sure we all agree that he couldn't be hurt by Anduril .

Originally Posted by Lolidir

and it doesnt hurt the Nazgul because they are wraiths.

Nay, Merry's sword (forged by the Men of Numenor) and Eowyn's sword were able to pierce the King of the Nazgul. Thus, it stands to reason that Anduril could also, being a sword of greater potency.

[Lolidir]

true. I guess i wasnt thinking straight last night. i guess it all goes back to who wields it and who strikes the Nazgul. that whole "no man can kill me"

[Finwe-89]

Well, I think Gandalf can't die again, since he has been send back. Cause he had a task to fulfill so I think the Valar made him immortal untill he fulfilled his task,cause I don't think Valar wants to take any risk that Gandalf dies again.

[Assasin]

Exactly. I'm glad YOU grasp the concept.

[ohtatyaro]

I'm glad YOU grasp the concept.

I'm afraid I'm not convinced I mean, if a person has a body, and body is made outta matter, and matter being destructible - surely there is a possibility of destroying it, than?

See:

Originally Posted by Gandalf at the Last Debate

We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dûr be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless - as we surely shall, if we sit here - and know as we die that no new age shall be.’

I doubt Gandalf was so cruel as to have second thougts, I mean, cackling and giggling in his mind along the lines as you surely shall, if we sit here - and know as you persih blah-blah-blah. I mean, it's just not a way Tolkien good guy would do.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Finwe-89

Well, I think Gandalf can't die again, since he has been send back. Cause he had a task to fulfill so I think the Valar made him immortal untill he fulfilled his task,cause I don't think Valar wants to take any risk that Gandalf dies again.

Didn't he have a task to fulfill BEFORE he died?

And Gandalf as sent back is merely an "enhanced" Gandalf. He has more authority, he is more able to unveil his power, but he remains a Maia in human form, hence he is still subject to death. Of course, the mere fact that he is more able to use his powers and skills means that the chances of anyone actually being skilled enough or clever enough or whatnot to actually hurt or kill him are pretty slim, but I do NOT think that Gandalf was unkillable.

I strongly agree with Formendacil! When the Ainur made the Music for Eru certain events where set in time and space before they actually came into being, right? The Valar remember the vision of Eru (especially Mandos, proclaimer of Doom). Some things are therefore Doom, unchangeable, like the fact the Witch King could not be killed by any man. Gandalf was given a task to fulfill, whether to victory or defeat. Gandalf knew this because he had been sent back to complete his task, with the knowledge and blessing of the Valar. Therefore he knew that it was not in his “doom” to die at the hand of a friend, he would ride out as the white rider against the Nine, and he would break the power of Saruman the Treacherous before he would come to the blessed relm again. For this reason no weapon held by a friend would hurt him.

All this is however theory, and I have no textual quotes to back me up, other then the general pattern of Doom and Fulfillment through out JRRT's work.

[Lolidir]

i must say that that is an interesting way to look at it, and after a little bit of thought i must agree. Even in LotR there are other forces at work than just magic. the Valar want Gandalf to finish his task and help save Middle Earth, therefor i doubt that they would allow something like being the accidental target of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas in Fangorn stop him. i am sure that they would intervene to make sure Gandalf got to where he needed to go.

[Finwe-89]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Didn't he have a task to fulfill BEFORE he died?

And Gandalf as sent back is merely an "enhanced" Gandalf. He has more authority, he is more able to unveil his power, but he remains a Maia in human form, hence he is still subject to death. Of course, the mere fact that he is more able to use his powers and skills means that the chances of anyone actually being skilled enough or clever enough or whatnot to actually hurt or kill him are pretty slim, but I do NOT think that Gandalf was unkillable.

I think that the Valar thought Gandalf couldn't die cause of his power, but when he did, they made him immortal. And if he get's a arrow orsomething in his body, I think he can regerate him self

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Finwe-89

I think that the Valar thought Gandalf couldn't die cause of his power, but when he did, they made him immortal. And if he get's a arrow orsomething in his body, I think he can regerate him self

As far as an arrow goes, it would have to hit him with the right force in the right place if it was to kill him anyway. Otherwise, he'd just be wounded.

Remember too, that Gandalf's power is still cloaked most of the time. He only unveils his power at truly desperate moments, like when the Nazgul are bearing down on Faramir. And even then, he does no more than drive them off.

Gandalf, were he to completely unveil his power, would have no need of diversions to get Frodo to Mount Doom. The invasion of Mordor would be deadly serious, it would be like the War of Wrath in miniature. Because Gandalf would no longer have any reason to hold back, to only encourage and not command, the War of the Ring would have gone VERY differently.

For these reasons (and those previously mentioned), I am of the solidified opinion that Gandalf was still very "killable" after his return from death. He was just more unlikely to be killed. He had, after all, been enhanced, given more allowance to use his power, and it had taken a Balrog his life to get rid of him the first time. Gandalf would have been beyond the skill of pretty much anyone to kill, but that doesn't mean that he was impossible to kill. He was, after all, still a Maia incarnate.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

As far as an arrow goes, it would have to hit him with the right force in the right place if it was to kill him anyway. Otherwise, he'd just be wounded.

Remember too, that Gandalf's power is still cloaked most of the time. He only unveils his power at truly desperate moments, like when the Nazgul are bearing down on Faramir. And even then, he does no more than drive them off.

Gandalf, were he to completely unveil his power, would have no need of diversions to get Frodo to Mount Doom. The invasion of Mordor would be deadly serious, it would be like the War of Wrath in miniature. Because Gandalf would no longer have any reason to hold back, to only encourage and not command, the War of the Ring would have gone VERY differently.

For these reasons (and those previously mentioned), I am of the solidified opinion that Gandalf was still very "killable" after his return from death. He was just more unlikely to be killed. He had, after all, been enhanced, given more allowance to use his power, and it had taken a Balrog his life to get rid of him the first time. Gandalf would have been beyond the skill of pretty much anyone to kill, but that doesn't mean that he was impossible to kill. He was, after all, still a Maia incarnate.

I wonder though. Does he not remark that "No weapon you have could harm me", or something like that?

[Assasin]

Why would he be brought back just to die again? He wouldn't have been sent back unless he had something else to do. He has to do that thing that he was sent back to do before he can drop dead again. Neurion, he probably has some sort of wizard force field or something. Don't they have those at Wal-Mart?

[Neithan]

Originally Posted by Saucepan Man

Based on this, I think that Lhuna is right. Gandalf the White was just as much incarnate as Gandalf the Grey.

Well the Valar ate at that whole harvest feast thing, so Gandalf could be eating and sleeping to keep up the act and keep others from realizing what he was. For this reason we cannot discount the theory of Gandalf being clothed so easily.
It all depends on how you interpret Gandalfs words. If you take it literally to mean that Anduril could not hurt Gandalf then the only explanation is that he is clothed. If you interpret it as that no weapons in the hands of those three could hurt him then he has already demonstrated that to be true. This is somewhat amazing though, that Isildur can harm Sauron but Aragorn can't harm Gandalf. It is hard to imagine that Gandalf has this power but Sauron does not.
Anyway it depends on what you think is more unlikely, that Gandalf would go into an actual sleep in order to keep up the act or that Gandalf's words which seemed to say that Anduril could not hurt him was actually saying, in a round about way, that they could not hurt him.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Neithan

For this reason we cannot discount the theory of Gandalf being clothed so easily.

It never occurred to me to think of him as anything but incarnate as Gandalf the White.

But the words of Tolkien himself allow us to discount the theory. Letter #156 (a draft addressed to Robert J Murray dated 4 November 1956) provides a fascinating analysis of Gandalf's death and return. The relevant passage is long and I shall not repeat it all hear (although it bears reading if you have the Letters). However, the following excerpt is illuminating on this issue:

He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but the Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' [ie the Valar] whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passsed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not discarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest.

The words which I have emboldened show that Tolkien regarded Gandalf the White and incarnate.

Originally Posted by Assasin

Why would he be brought back just to die again?

If Gandalf the White was "immune" from (physical) death, then wouldn't it rather lessen the tension of the second half of the book? No, he could have been killed. That's why the West was in such deadly peril. Had he fallen, then there would have been little hope left.

I suspect that his words to the Three Hunters involved, as has been suggested, a measure of foresight. He knew that he would not be killed by their weapons.

[Oddwen]

For a brief time I was sent back, until my task was done.

Is this just referring to the fact that he left for Valinor in the end? Or that he didn't know if Frodo would succeed, and assumed that he (Gandalf) and the rest might die before the Black Gate? (Forgive me, I can't remember exactly where that quote came from. The location of it probably explains it... )

none of you have any weapon that could hurt me.

"None of you" - Axe, bow, and sword. No physical weapon can hurt him? What about something more violent, like Saruman's blasting fire? Or poison? Something from within, rather than from without?

That may explain why Pippin was able to sneak the Palantir, because Gandalf held him dear.

So...was Gandalf suceptible to treachery? Throw Denethor's madness into the mix and there's a whole new way to look at things...

[Lolidir]

i was doing a bit of thinking and came to the conclusion that maybe we are over thinking things. if you sneak up on someone and know that they will try to strike at you, who would be more prepared? you, who knows what they are going to do, or them, who only know what they will do? we all saw how Gimli's axe was thrown a conciderable distance when thrown at Gandalf, and we saw how he deflected the arrow. it is only logical that Aragorn would attack with his sword, and couldnt Gandalf throw it away as he did the axe? so maybe they didnt have anything that could hurt him beacause he knew how to counter them.

[Neithan]

I stand corrected! Thank you Saucepan Man for that quote, I really must get the Letters. That question at least is settled. And I guess your analysis of what Ganalf meant is the best so far but it still doesn't seem quite right to me.

[Lolidir]

Saucepan Man, i must say that after rereading and having clearer thought than last time i looked at this that the notes make sence. i dont know whether to do this here or not but for me and the rest of us out here wanting the notes, could you possibly enlighten us as to where we can get them. like are they in a book entitled something like Tolkien's notes or something else?