Cirdan - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mhoram · 03-08-2002, 12:10 AM

Quote:

1149.

In this year Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of Finwe
and went again to Middle-earth to bring Elwe and his people to
Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now
willing indeed; but Osse was grieved. For his care was for the
seas of Middle-earth and the shores of the Outer Lands, and he
came seldom to Aman, unless summoned to council; and he was
ill-pleased that the fair voices of the Teleri should be heard no
more in Middle-earth. Some therefore he persuaded to remain,
and those were the Eldar that long abode on the coasts of
Beleriand, the first mariners upon earth and the first makers of
ships. Their havens were at Brithombar and Eglarest. Cirdan the
Shipwright was their lord.

This is in the first age, time of the trees. This is before Olwe goes to Aman and before Elwe becomes King of Beleriand. So Cirdan is atleast as old as the brothers it would seem.

I ask this, is it possible that Cirdan was a Maia?

For one, he lives his entire life on the coast, hanging out with Osse?

Two, when Gandalf comes he gives him his ring, why is he so sure about Gandalf? Maybe because he knew him? Maybe he even hung out with Olorin during those times when Olorin was said to walk among the Elves as one of them.

Three, he passes up rightful kingship a zillion times.

Feedback.

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

Gwaihir the Windlord · 03-08-2002, 12:21 AM

No, I don't think so. He was just a very old, wise Elf, who happened to be Osse's best freind and so had a deep understanding with him.

Elves live forever as you know, unless they are slain. It seems that they usually are, at some point in their life at least; there wouldn't be all that many Elves from the First Age still around in Middle-Earth at the end of the Third, still less from the Awakening of the Elves itself. However by amazing good fortune Cirdan was one of them.

It's not just Maiar that can sense power, and use it. Some of the stronger Elves can do it just as well as some of the weaker Maiar. Elves, much more so than Men, are the closest being on Earth to the race of the Ainur, and accordingly they share certain aspects with them: immortality, beauty, 'magical' powers, great wisdom, strength of fea. Cirdan may have been an Elf that was even closer to the Ainur than normal; he was certainly very wise. He sensed something about Gandalf, that's for sure.
Perhaps he sensed that Gandalf's inner fire, his fea or spirit, was steady and strong, and wise bwyond all lore. His race's affinity to Gandalf's, and especially between these two (Cirdan being, as aforementioned, gifted in this way, and Gandalf being a very wise and good Maiar) things could be sensed.

That's all.

Orald · 03-08-2002, 01:32 AM

Quote:

there wouldn't be all that many Elves from the First Age still around in Middle-Earth at the end of the Third, still less from the Awakening of the Elves itself. However by amazing good fortune Cirdan was one of them.

Are you implying that Cirdan was one of the original elves to awake at Cuivienen?

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-08-2002, 01:43 AM

Círdan was definitely not Maia.

Quote:

Círdan was a Telerin Elf, one of the highest of those who were not transported to Valinor but became known as the Sindar, the Grey-elves; he was akin to Olwë, one of the two kings of the Teleri, and lord of those who departed over the Great Sea.
He was thus also akin to Elwë, Olwë's elder brother, acknowledged as high-king of all the Teleri in Beleriand, even after he withdrew to the guarded realm of Doriath.

Peoples of Middle Earth, History of Middle Earth, vol 12, ch. XIII

Mhoram · 03-08-2002, 03:14 AM

Durelen, see my thread about Finwe and Elwe's death in this forum, there I also give evidence that Cirdan was born at the most 524 Years of the Sun after the awakening of the Elves.

Aralaithiel · 03-08-2002, 03:44 PM

OK...I have only read the LOTR trilogy, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, and am starting Lost Tales I. Did Cirdan ever wed? I don't think so. I would appreciate some enlightenment.
Thanks!

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-08-2002, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Did Cirdan ever wed?

Círdan's personal relations are a mystery, since Professor Tolkien never really got into his character very much.
We had a hard enough time finding the reference that positively identifies him as Teleri and the kinsman of Olwë.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 03-08-2002, 09:42 PM

Durelen; I didn't mean that he was one of the very first originals (although o course he may have been), just that he was pretty damn close to it.

Aralaithiel · 03-09-2002, 04:13 PM

Well, based on that, I will assume that Cirdan never wed. He is going to be in my fan fic as being jealous of Legolas, and it would help if he wasn't ever wed. Cirdan kinda fancies the redhead! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Thanks guys! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

littlemanpoet · 03-09-2002, 09:25 PM

Watch out world, the spirit of Feanor rebodied in the red-headed high queen of all elves, who just happenes to be Irish/Cherokee (did I get that right?) can only mean that we are in for another War of the Silmarils (I'm figuring that Aralaithiel probably finds them in her fan-fic).

Anyway..... The Silmarillion says in Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie that those Teleri that Osse persuaded to remain in Beleriand, known as the Falathrim, the Elves of the Falas, the first mariners of Middle-earth and first makers of ships, and Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord. So he was a king of a part of the Teleri. I guess that makes him the third greatest of the Teleri after Elwe and Olwe.

Orald · 03-10-2002, 12:01 AM

Unless Luthien was greater, or any of the Finarfin's children(considering them half telerin), or even Elmo. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]

03-08-2002, 03:44 PM	#6
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	OK...I have only read the LOTR trilogy, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit, and am starting Lost Tales I. Did Cirdan ever wed? I don't think so. I would appreciate some enlightenment. Thanks! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-09-2002, 04:13 PM	#9
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Well, based on that, I will assume that Cirdan never wed. He is going to be in my fan fic as being jealous of Legolas, and it would help if he wasn't ever wed. Cirdan kinda fancies the redhead! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks guys! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-08-2002, 12:21 AM	#2
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	No, I don't think so. He was just a very old, wise Elf, who happened to be Osse's best freind and so had a deep understanding with him. Elves live forever as you know, unless they are slain. It seems that they usually are, at some point in their life at least; there wouldn't be all that many Elves from the First Age still around in Middle-Earth at the end of the Third, still less from the Awakening of the Elves itself. However by amazing good fortune Cirdan was one of them. It's not just Maiar that can sense power, and use it. Some of the stronger Elves can do it just as well as some of the weaker Maiar. Elves, much more so than Men, are the closest being on Earth to the race of the Ainur, and accordingly they share certain aspects with them: immortality, beauty, 'magical' powers, great wisdom, strength of fea. Cirdan may have been an Elf that was even closer to the Ainur than normal; he was certainly very wise. He sensed something about Gandalf, that's for sure. Perhaps he sensed that Gandalf's inner fire, his fea or spirit, was steady and strong, and wise bwyond all lore. His race's affinity to Gandalf's, and especially between these two (Cirdan being, as aforementioned, gifted in this way, and Gandalf being a very wise and good Maiar) things could be sensed. That's all.

03-08-2002, 03:14 AM	#5
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 363	Durelen, see my thread about Finwe and Elwe's death in this forum, there I also give evidence that Cirdan was born at the most 524 Years of the Sun after the awakening of the Elves.

03-08-2002, 09:42 PM	#8
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Durelen; I didn't mean that he was one of the very first originals (although o course he may have been), just that he was pretty damn close to it.

03-09-2002, 09:25 PM	#10
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,072	Watch out world, the spirit of Feanor rebodied in the red-headed high queen of all elves, who just happenes to be Irish/Cherokee (did I get that right?) can only mean that we are in for another War of the Silmarils (I'm figuring that Aralaithiel probably finds them in her fan-fic). Anyway..... The Silmarillion says in Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie that those Teleri that Osse persuaded to remain in Beleriand, known as the Falathrim, the Elves of the Falas, the first mariners of Middle-earth and first makers of ships, and Cirdan the Shipwright was their lord. So he was a king of a part of the Teleri. I guess that makes him the third greatest of the Teleri after Elwe and Olwe.

03-10-2002, 12:01 AM	#11
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Unless Luthien was greater, or any of the Finarfin's children(considering them half telerin), or even Elmo. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]