Relationship Elves and Men

It accured to me, that every single interracial (pardon that expression but no better came to my mind ;-) ) relationship between Elves and Men is always kind of one sided. Specificly if you look at it from the gender point of view.
It is always a elv woman and a mortal men as far as I have read the books. Starting from Luthien and Berens over Tuor and Idril to Arwen and Aragorn. The elv part is ever the female part.
Maybe one of you has some kind of explaination.
I read once in a book of Irish myth that the men of the Tuath'an (an elv kind of race living under the soil or so of Ireland) regarded the human woman to be ugly and clumsy...

Thanks.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I suppose that's just the way things turned out. I could write a short essay here about representation of themes, Elvish/Mannish personalities, Male-Female roles and the question of forty-two (etc); however I don't really think it's fitting on this question... it would certainly be a very abstract speculation.

=] I suppose we can look for a reason at each case. (I've noticed this myself, by the way, as I expect have most people. Don't think it's ever come up before though.)

In each Union of Elves and Men (if you're looking for a better expression than 'interracial', Ascaalphion :rolleyes : ) -- namely those of Beren=Luthien, Tuor=Idril, Aragorn=Arwen -- there has actually been a common factor; the Man (in this case using both senses of the word) has been a warrior. He has won through, and at the end won his bride.

In the case of Beren and Luthien, where both of them won through together, this still does work out as Beren had to get to Doriath in the first place... I suppose it actually could have been a human woman in this case, with Luthien (obviously with a different name) being male; the story wouldn't really have worked properly at all though, certainly not fitting in with the overall infrastructure of the mythology.

Tuor and Aragorn, of course, Tuor performing the sort of task he did (realise that we're talking about classic literature here; not a modern Hollywood film [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) and Aragorn being a king (and a captain and soldier as well -- and the heir of Elendil and Isildur, one who must take up their task), had to be men. The characters of Arwen and Idril fitted in with this and with the whole structure of things when you think about it, which is vitally important. The story of Beren and Luthien did work a lot better with their respective sexes being as they are, and thus it was important for them too for the purposes of fitting in with it all.

Yes, so I'd say that's probably what it is. Just the way it worked out.

[ August 31, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

I think I get your point Gwaihir and its a good one.
But my question is why has never a male elv conquered a human bride? Could it be possible that Tolkien created and saw the Elvs as a more "female" race? (I think i will get a few angry replies on that statement.. ;-) ).

[Liriodendron]

Or could it be that elves are supposed to be better than men (as a race) So no elvish male would want a lowly, second class citizen (in the era that these books were written, women were second class citizens [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) like a human female. A superstar/warrior human male, could be considered "good enough" for the crossing of species though.
Also, elvish males don't really seem to have as much "longing and lusting" for the opposite sex in their psyche, as human males. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Comments! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[ August 31, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[Arestevana]

I think this is an excellent question, but unless someone comes to this thread who has spoken to Tolkien himself on the subject, you are not likely to get a direct answer. I do agree with Gwaihir in that it might have been 'just the way it worked out'. It is not often that you find a woman racing off to rescue helpless men, and even if unintentionally, Tolkien's books do fit the basic story line of many fantasies in the sense: Hero with quest, Hero kicks butt, Hero wins fair lady's heart. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I also think you have a point, Ascaalphion, When you mention Elves as a more 'female' race. I'm not saying Tolkien saw them that way, but it does seem easier to think of an elf: graceful, peaceful, quiet, delicate; as being the woman, rather than the rough, bloodstained mortal. So maybe that's a little extreme, but you get the picture. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Liriodendron]

I think of elvish males as fair (attractive) but FELL! Fell.... as in strong, stern, formidible, highly skilled warriors, certainly not "feminine"! I don't see the "elf as a nancing sissy" bit in Tolkien's ME. (that's just my opinion of course! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) Elvish males don't seem very preoccupied with lust maybe, or maybe they were during their late teens and twenties!? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I reject the notion of elvish males as feminine though. No sir, I do not go for that! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Maikadilwen]

You seem to forget about Aegnor and Andreth.
Though not ever officially a couple, they certainly did love each other.
A Noldorin prince and a mortal woman. Imagine the headlines. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ August 31, 2003: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Liriodendron]

Please! Clue me in! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I couldn't find Andreth in my "Complete Guide to Middle Earth", though Aegnor is there.

"Noldorin Elf of the House of Finrod, fourth son of Finfarin. He returned to ME with the host of Fingolfin because of his friendship with Fingon, and settled on the northern slopes of Dorthonion with his brother Angrod. Aegnor was slain by the fires from Thangorodrim during Dagor Bragollach....

Now his name is Sindarin for "fell fire", seems like he was named after his life was over.... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I also have overlooked her completly but I found this:

"Andreth

Saelind.

Wiseheart.

Born in F.A.year 361. Died in ? ( 455 ?)

Daughter of Boron of the house of Bëor.

Andreth was sister to Boromir.

1 Age.

Is suggested by Tolkien that she probably died when Melkor broke the siege of Angband in the ruinous Battle of Sudden Flame ( F.A.455.), for all the Northern realms where the people of Bëor dwelt was devorstated and conquered by Melkor. but she would then be a very old woman.( 94 ). Andreth was unwed and childless. By the Elves she was called Saelind whitch means Wise-Heart for she was wise in thought and learned in the lore of Men and their histories. She had in her youth long dwelt in the house of Belemir where she had learned the lore and language of the people of Marach from Adanel, the wife of Belemir.

Andreth had a close friendship with Finrod Felagund who often during the long siege of Angband would visit Andreth to converse with her for he found her more willing to impart him in the knowledge of Men than most of the wise among Men were. Andreth was deeply in love with Finrods brother Aegnor, the love was returned but never fulfilled since Aegnor from motives of wisdom departed. But truely he was an equal victim of the tragedy. ( The time of the Birth and dearth of Adanel and Andreth does not correspond with time of their families. Tolkien removed time 90 years back while he wrote the tales where these two women appear.)"

[tinewelt]

just personal opinion, but I believe that the main reason that there has never been a union between a male elf and a Woman is because of the "self-image" factor of the elves. If you notice, in all 3 of the unions, The elven "father" is the primary obstacle and protester of the union. They of course feel that elf maidens and princesses are on a higher level of signifigance and importance. Vise versa, they would never allows themselves to be seen as less kingly or as equal to the Atani. I guess it's kind of like a "jet" marrying a "shark". lol [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Namarie~

[Nils]

Liriodendron,

You can find the story in Morgoth's Ring.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

In this case, I suppose, it would have fit in.

It probably wouldn't have been very significant, though. Each of the unions was vitally important to Middle-Earth, key things that determined large portions of Arda's fate for Elves and Men.

[Nils]

There were also 3 Elven Fathers. I wonder if there is any connection.

[Finwe]

I think that the reason that most Half-Elven unions were of a male Human and a female Elf was that women are more inclined to sacrifice for their love. Now I'm not saying that men don't do it at all, but it's more likely that a woman would give up her immortality to be with the one that she loves. Also, Elven women didn't have as many duties as the men did, so in a sense, they were expendable. Aegnor couldn't go racing off and falling in love with a mortal woman because, quite frankly, he was needed somewhere else. Luthien and Idril weren't needed on the borders of their parents' kingdoms, guarding against Orcs, so in a sense, they had the leisure to fall in love with a mortal.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Actually, that last observation is a definite factor that I have been trying to put my own finger on. Not an overly large one I would guess, when you think about it, but it is there.

This, however

Now I'm not saying that men don't do it at all, but it's more likely that a woman would give up her immortality to be with the one that she loves.

I do not agree with. Can not a man be equally devoted to his wife than can his wife to him? Of course. The wives of Earendil and Aragorn seem to follow after these men, but it is out of devotion for Elwing and Arwen -- and because they are men, and men of destiny what's more -- that the Bright and the Elf-stone go ahead in the first place.

And Elwing and Arwen were women of destiny.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I agree with Gwaihir, it is not a question of elven men wanting or not to give up immortality. It is only Iluvatar who can change the destiny of His Children. In the case of Aegnor and Andreth, he knew that his destiny would not be changed. As Finrod says in the Atharbeth, that is only going to happen to a few number of couples:

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purposes of Doom.'
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; HoME 10

[Liriodendron]

Well that's real cheerful! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

You want cheerful, eh? Tolkien isn't a particularly good choice in that respect.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

I have also remebered a marriage between a half-elven man and a woman: Elros and his wife [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Ok, let's look at it this way. What if Beren, Tuor and Aragorn were Elves and Luthien, Idril and Arwen mortal? I just can't imagine a noble Elven lord going through all the trouble the dirty, hairy smelly noble men went through [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Maybe it's just me...

Sorry for the rant [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

-Aredhel

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

The marriage between Elros and his wife was the same kind of marriage than the one of Aragorn and Arwen, only that in the case of Elros he was the half-elven and his wife was a woman. I don't remember they had any problem. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

I don't think Elros counted as a Half-Elf, since he chose to become a Man. I'm assuming that his marriage took place after his choice, making him just one nice catch for his wife! (Yes, I know I'm being very mean).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

In that quote from HoME 10, the word "Doom" is not used as negatively as we would see it nowadays - in Tolkien's works, it is often interchangeable with "fate". That would put the intermarriage between Elves and Men on a dramatic, but not quite so tragic level.

[Evisse the Blue]

I just can't imagine a noble Elven lord going through all the trouble the dirty, hairy smelly noble men went through

Well - look at it this way - can you imagine a Mortal woman going through this sort of trouble? IMHO, it's she who has to do so if she wants to convince the Elf man and his family that it's worth giving up one's immortality for her sake. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Finwë wrote:

I don't think Elros counted as a Half-Elf, since he chose to become a Man.

Elros was counted as a Half-elf, by Tolkien, irrespectively of which destiny he chose [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

The sons of Ëarendil were Elros and Elrond, the Peredhil or Half-elven.
Appendix A; LotR

Therefore, Elros was a half-elf who married a mortal woman [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Arothir]

Did Idril give up her immortality for Tuor?

[Maikadilwen]

Idril was 100% Elf and therefore couldn't give up anything.
The only reason Arwen (and Elladan and Elrohir) had a choice, is because they had mortal blood. Arwen chose to remain behind and not pass over the sea with Elrond and thus she became mortal.
Simple as that.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Did Idril give up her immortality for Tuor?

Arothir, actually it is said that Tuor was given the elvish immortality by Ilúvatar [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

You can read about it, here:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=000266

[Arothir]

Amarie, I knew about Tuor being numbered among the Elves. I just wondered what would happen if he didn't sail to Aman.

[Guinevere]

What an interesting thread! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I must say it also struck me that it`s always Elf maidens that fall in love with Human men and never the other way round (I haven`t read HoME and so knew nothing about Andreth up to now...but she seems to be the only exception)
Apart from the "high purposes of Doom" in the 3 official Elf/Man unions, there are 2 elf- maidens that fall in love with the hapless Turin: first Nellas, later Finduilas. (And he doesn`t even notice it!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] )
And there is the Elven ancestress of the lords of Dol Amroth...

I think perhaps it has also to do with the fact, that an older man can still be considered attractive even at the side of his Elven wife still looking young and unchanged (Aragorn was smart enough to move on before he became an old dotard [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ), but one somehow can`t imagine an ageing mortal woman as the spouse of an forever fair and young looking Elf man... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Didn`t Tolkien write the conversation between Finrod and Andreth much later in his life, when he might have had a different outlook?

[Liriodendron]

Hmmm, women and their appearance. You know, I think you've hit on something there! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I must admit, it would drive me totally insane to age (I mean REALLY age, gray braided coronet updo, crepe paper skin, slight shakes, etc) while the love of my life, my reason for living, the elf of my dreams...stayed youthful, attractive and virile looking. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] No, that wouldn't do at all! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Are there any cases of a human given imortality because they marry an elf?

[ September 06, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Tuor [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Liriodendron]

Ok! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I could do these conversations better if I would reread the Sil several more times. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Unfortunately I didn't care for the writing style. It was too dry to hold my interest. Maybe I'll just bow out here and let you all do your thing. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Guinevere]

Don't leave, Liriodendron, I love your comments! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Another thought I had on this topic: I guess mortal women had also less opportunity to ever meet an Elf. In ME they stayed mostly at home (if they were not leaders like Haleth...)In the first age Men went to fight Morgoth under the command of Elf-lords and were generally drawn towards the Elves. The Elves themselves were not so much concerned with Humans (except Finrod Felagund) and had no reason to go visiting their homes where they would have the opportunity to meet mortal maidens.

[Liriodendron]

Thank you Guinevere. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'll keep reading! I like your avatar very much. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]