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Old 09-17-2003, 07:11 PM   #121
Alaksoron
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Yet another thing. Saruman stopped being called 'White'. He called himself 'Saruman of many colors'. Also, Galadriels husband was Haldir, not Celeborn. and I am very disappointed tha they never mentioned the third wizard, Radagast, in the movies.
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Old 09-17-2003, 07:18 PM   #122
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I like this question, did anyone else think that Elrond in both of the films has serious "issues" and seemed so angry not at all the patient well of wisdom that i had imagined from the books. Also Faramir disappointed me as i imagined him as a anti Boromir and a "wizards pupil"... i know he repented and saw sense at the end of TTT but he was a major disappointment.
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Old 09-17-2003, 08:24 PM   #123
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Alaksoron, Galadriel's husband was indeed Celeborn. Haldir was just a border scout, along with his brothers.

I think that Elrond did indeed have some major issues in both of the movies, and I thought that by the time of the Trilogy he was resigned to the fact that Arwen and Aragorn were in love and planned to marry. I may just be imagining that, though.
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Old 09-17-2003, 08:41 PM   #124
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I thought Elrond overplayed the part of "Over protective father" in TTT
He did seem kind of angry didn't he. Hmm.
Added drama maybe? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
I mean, Arwen is how old, exactly, and has the right to make her own decisions. Maybe Peter liked the idea of Thingol and his ruling for Luthien. How Beren needed to prove himself. Wait a minute, Aragorn needed to prove himself too.
But listend to me, blathering like it's daylight...
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Old 09-18-2003, 01:36 AM   #125
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Arwen was mentioned in Rivendell actually...it was only a short mention but I found it sufficient to get the general picture about their relationship. Unfortunately PJ obviously didn't.
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Old 09-20-2003, 03:29 PM   #126
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In the book, Elrond sang at Rivendell. Arwen was not in the books save for a brief mention in ROTK. In the books, Aragorn was older than Viggo Mortensen portrayed him. In the book, Frodo got drunk and stood on top a table and sang at The Prancing Pony in Bree. No, I'm afraid the movies were horribly incoherent with the books, and the majority of Peter Jacksons changes to the story were degrading to the plot. It's depraving people who don't read the books and just watch the movies. I am sad and dissatisfied.
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Old 09-20-2003, 03:37 PM   #127
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Remember the particular orc in the movie who killed Boromir? They added him in. the books didn't glorify any particular orc.
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Old 09-21-2003, 12:11 PM   #128
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Welcome to the Downs, Alaksoron. Have fun posting here. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I disagree with you about the films, but that discussion is best left for another thread (and it is one that has been had many times on the Movies forum [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). One point though:

Quote:
the books didn't glorify any particular orc.
I would say that Ugluk (and, to a lesser extent, Shagrat and Gorbag) are "glorified" in the Books at least to the same extent that Lurtz is "glorified" in the first film, if not moreso. They are given personalities - indeed they are characterised to a greater extent than any Orc in the films. Ugluk, for his many failings, is portrayed in the Book as an effective Orcish leader who is doing his best to carry out his orders. Lurtz is portrayed in much the same way. In fact, if anything, he is less "human" than Ugluk in that he seems incapable of forming anything that the most basic of sentences. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 09-21-2003, 12:28 PM   #129
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I was kinda dissapointed with the way that they changed Arwen in the movies. In the books, she was simply the daughter of Elrond, and lover of Aragorn (not to mention Queen of Gondor!). But in the movies, she was some "Warrior Princess" that rescues Frodo, stands up to the Nazgul, and saves the Day!
Also, the Lothlorien Elves seemed VERY depressed when the fellowship arrived. And Galadriel seemed scarier in the movies.
Not to mention, the Kingdom of Rohan, as good as it was, seemed like a very insignificant Kingdom in the Movies. that's all for now!
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Old 09-22-2003, 12:54 PM   #130
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I found the way they portrayed Galadriel and Lothlórien fascinating...they way it was a kind of place of fear as Boromir had thought it...and the way Galadriel was searching their minds not only at their meeting but on their way in too.
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Old 09-26-2003, 07:54 AM   #131
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To be honest they had to make the most of any female characters they could in the Films...not saying it was right by any means but they had to open the films more to a female audience. While Arwen is confined mainly to the ROTK and the appendices especially, the films certainly increase her status. I was so upset not to see Glorfindel at the Fords of Bruinen, and they cut him out completely just to add a slice of Liv Tyler galloping on a horse...come on Peter what are u playing at!!!!

And another thing, Elves in Helm's Deep, whatever next, one of the better touches i believe but i was so sad when one of them died! Almost cried.

This should really be in the Movies bit shouldnt it but good question all the same! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 09-26-2003, 06:12 PM   #132
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Mmm ... let's first post about the looks and then the actions they perform.

Gandalf : looks great, acts like the books

Saruman : looks are only so-so (I wouldn't be enthralled by him - shouldn't he look friendly at least?); too much a servant of Sauron compared to the books (e.g. when he asks Sauron what he wants). In the books, he thought of himself as a serious contender 'allied' to Mordor.

Elrond : looks : awful! Agent Smith. Acts : not wise and omniscient enough. The entire elf exodus is wrong to me. The flashback in TTT doesn't help.

Arwen : looks : great! That is Arwen Undomiel! Acts : Aaargh. Why? Oh good lord, why? She was perfect in the books (i.e. absent).

Glorfindel : why was he cut? Such a great character?

Aragorn : looks : great! Acts : great, except on some occasions. The fall over cliff & flashback sucked, and his 'evil' approach against Frodo on Amon Hen wasn't good either. One of the two characters in the movies that are as good or better than the book version.

Boromir : Wonderful. My favourite character from the books (because he's really believable as getting corrupted by the ring to save his city and then getting redeemed again). I cried in the books when he died, cried in the movie when he died. His death was the one scene that was BETTER in the movie than in the book. I loved it & him.

Legolas : looks : well, an elf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Acts : well, legolas is the blandest member of the fellowship. Does nothing, has no real lines (except the Balrog one) ... and here even his meaningfull friendship with Gimli is reduced to stupid one-liners ... I wonder howPJ is gonna screw up the Gulls & the Sea.

Gimli : nice looks but the dwarf=short jokes are getting old. Where's the end of the Helm's Deep game with legolas?

Faramir : looks : ok. Acts : Biggest PJ mistake as yet. No gonna elaborate.

Frodo : immature as said before. When I first looked at him I thought : oh no, 9 MORE hours of looking at this guy???

Sam : good. Same chap as in the books

Pippin : too stupid.

Merry : really good actually. Rascal but more grown up than Pip.

Ents : didn't look entish to me.

Grishnack : Please! Why didn't he go for the ring when pursuing the hobbits but did hepursue them for eating them? Where's the point in changing that? Books tell about the intrigues between three orc kindreds (Mountain, Isengard, Red Eye). Movies give us hungry orcs. Weeha.

Grima : as good as the book. But why didn't Theodred die at the Ford?

Theoden & the Riders : about what I expected ,except that Theo changed compared to the book.

Eowyn : Cool character. hope PJ doesn't screw the Dernhelm part.
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Old 09-27-2003, 07:17 AM   #133
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Quote:
I was so upset not to see Glorfindel at the Fords of Bruinen, and they cut him out completely just to add a slice of Liv Tyler galloping on a horse...come on Peter what are u playing at!!!
To try to stick up for the poor guy just a little bit [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] , I'd say that he cut Glorfindel because he was only really involved in the storyline at the fords. So he was one character too many I suppose. And what a great chance to expand the role of Arwen to warrior princess!
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Old 11-14-2003, 03:18 PM   #134
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(Sorry, I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but have read most of them. I hope to contribute more later, but I want to start with: )

Aragorn - I agree with despising the movies' reluctant character. I have other issues with movie-gorn.

The books portray him as dark and grim. Wise in old lore, strong in character, thinking, meditating. Crafty in woodcraft, knowing trails, knowing very well the movements, techniques, and thinking of any and all of his enemies at all times. In command! Confident, yet humble.

In the movie version, I do not get the confidence or grimness. Nor the strength. Especially Mortenson's voice. It is too weak and thin to me. Where are the broad shoulders?

The actor who portrayed Aragorn in the BBC Radio Adaptation of LotR, Robert Stephens, had an excellent voice conveying the depth of wisdom, character, and strength of Tolkien's Aragorn.

(I wish I could do justice to my opinion with book quotes, etc., but no time.)

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: Theron Bugtussle ]
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Old 11-14-2003, 08:56 PM   #135
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Squatter's discourse
Quote:
...so that I can concentrate on Gimli...
was excellent!
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Old 11-15-2003, 04:10 PM   #136
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I think that in the movie, Aragorn was one of the ones that was portrayed the best. He had the authority and kindness that I saw in the book. Viggo Mortensen is a phenominal actor, and I was very pleased with his acting.

Elijah Wood was spectacular as Frodo in the movie. Even though he was a lot older in the book, they wouldn't have gotten the same response if they would have casted someone that age. People could relate to him because of his age in the movie. Elijah brought the intensity and determination that I saw in Frodo in LotR.

Galadriel had the same essence in the book as in the movie. She was wise and powerful, and that power could be a little scary. There are moments in Aragorn and Gandalf where their power comes out frightening, too. But that is just a part of being so powerful. I know I am using powerful a lot, I just can't think of a better word. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gandalf was beautifully portrayed in the movie. The characters (book and movie) were not different to me. When I think of Gandalf, I see Ian McKellen.

Saruman was amazing in the movie. In the books his desperation to have power was overwhelming and I think that was portrayed in the movies.

Hugo Weaving had another performance I admired. His portrayal of Elrond was very good. If you recall in the books, Elrond knew what had to be done, and he tried to make it happen. The movie showed that to me as well.

I loved Glorfindel in the books, so I was very upset when they replaced him with Arwen in the movies. Glorfindel had so much history in LotR, it was a shame to exclude him from the movie.

I was also extremely disheartened when Tom Bombadil was excluded from the movie. Tom Bombadil showed the vastness of the characters in Middle-earth and was a very loveable character. He also brought out how insignificant the tiny hobbits really were (not that they were unimportant, just a small number in the hugeness of the world). I missed Tom Bombadil in the movie. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

That is my opinion on the matter, agree or disagree. Until next time
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Old 11-17-2003, 02:55 PM   #137
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(My response here may not be so much on a single character as on the movie's (TTT) treatment of Theoden and how he was 'liberated' by Gandalf. -T. Bugtussle)

1. Movie: Gandalf and the three hunters stride into the Golden hall. The three hunters (Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli) smack Theoden's guard around while Gandalf speaks to Theoden and Wormtongue.

Book: They may get a cold reception, but no fisticuffs. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

2. Movie: Gandalf more-or-less "exorcises" the spirit of Saruman from Theoden. Uses mind or spirit power, brandishes his wizard's staff several times, overcoming the possession spell. Very "Dungeons and Dragons!" [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Not at all the spirit of Tolkien...

Book: Gandalf has brief words with Wormtongue, then speaks gently to Theoden, helps him out to the open and encourages him to breathe the fresh air, feel the sun, feel strength from his sword, etc. Through good counsel and speaking the truth, he counters the foul lies and whisperings that have held Theoden under the spell of the "propagandist's grip." [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] More subtle, less flashy. More in tune with Animal Farm and 1984 than D&D and fantasy video games.

3. Movie: Once freed from Saruman's spell, Theoden remains a fatalistic, near-craven pessimist, who runs from a fight with Saruman's forces, fleeing straight to Helm's Deep. Both Gandalf and Aragorn see this as cowardice and stubbornness, with a near-hopeless outcome.

Book: Theoden himself proposes he lead his army against Saruman. Goes to Helm's Deep when he finds the Ford of Isen has been lost already. Hopes to rescue Erkenbrand's remaining forces. Both Gandalf and Aragorn are proudly willing to stand with this magnificent leader. Gandalf, in his own way, seeking additional aid, and Aragorn, willing to put his future kingship on the line in a fight for moral support of his allies.

Overall, a very frustrating deviation by PJ from the wonderful JRRT!
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Old 12-05-2003, 06:26 PM   #138
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I think that for the movie, the Elves in Helms Deep was great. To me it seemed romantic that the Elves should stand and fight with men one more time before leaving Middle-Earth forever. Even though it was completely implausible in the book. At first when I watched TTT I was horrified!! The changes were huge!! Every time I watched it and Sam would say "... we shouldn't even be here..." I would shout out loud "Darn straight you shouldn't!" But after I watched the Extended Edition and the writers explained why they had to make such changes I felt better and realized that the movies are in reasonably good hands cause all of the writers and PJ care about the book and are, like us, fans.
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Old 12-07-2003, 10:36 AM   #139
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Quote:
Overall, a very frustrating deviation by PJ from the wonderful JRRT!
My thoughts precisely. In fact most of the major deviations look to me like the sort of misrepresentations that one might expect from inept fan-fiction, in which what the writer wishes had happened is played out in place of Tolkien's invariably subtler approach. For strangers to come with arrogant force into a king's hall and fight his trusted house-carles before his very throne undermines his authority and alienates the loyal members of his household at a time when his authority is already at a low ebb. In the scenes in Rohan, Théoden is cast almost in the role of a vassal king. This is not how Tolkien envisaged him, and it is certainly not how Aragorn saw him, particularly since Aragorn holds no official title at the time when these events take place.

Moreover, Aragorn's deference to Théoden in the book underlines both his humility and his respect for Rohan as an independent kingdom (which incidentally offers a stark contrast to Denethor's haughty dismissal of other peoples). Although not yet a king, he is laying the foundations of diplomacy and making it easier for Théoden to accept his status. This purpose would not be served by barging into Meduseld, shouting the odds and overruling the king in front of his thegns. This is just awful diplomacy and it would set up severe problems for the future, but it is also completely out of character for Aragorn, who is Tolkien's model of a good king. In joining in this farce, Gandalf can only appear as a meddler and a usurper of authority, so he, too, is undermined as a character. As for the scene in which Gríma is kicked out of Meduseld: it misses the entire point of his departure in the books, which shows him to be a traitor and coward and Théoden, Éomer, Aragorn et al to be noble and merciful. This scene was a sop to the writers' desire to see 'justice' (read punishment) done, and it lessens everyone involved apart from Gríma himself. The scene as written by Tolkien has Wormtongue choosing exile over redemption and loyalty, which increases the bitterness of his later suffering in Saruman's presence. Of course, we know now that we are not to see this in the next film, but since it was an important theme in the books, and will probably be replaced with more gratuitous fighting scenes, this is yet another example of clumsy adaptation.

I'm afraid that I can never accept the explanation that all of these changes were necessary. Too many of them seem to exhibit an arrogant belief that the script-writers are better at characterisation and storytelling than the man who wrote the story that they are adapting. Even if this were true, the aim of an adaptation is to capture the spirit of the story in a different medium, not to adapt the themes and spirit to suit what the writers would rather they had been. Where the changes made are clearly imposed by want of space I have no objections (although if space is at such a premium then writing new scenes and extending minor battles into huge set-pieces is even more deplorable), but this is not why the scenes in Rohan were re-written. If the authors of the screenplay really were better storytellers than Tolkien I might still be able to forgive their butchery, but clearly they are not. Therefore they only lessen the impact of their material, whilst simultaneously revealing their own lack of understanding.
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:22 AM   #140
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Essentially every character with the possible exceptions of Boromir, Pippin and Sam have been totally undermined by the movies. Gandalf is half-mad in the first film. I mean, jumping out from behind a door in the middle of a storm and screaming "Is it safe?" at the top of his voice? Catch a grip! He's lucky poor Frodo didn't drop dead of fright on the spot.

Boromir of course was an annoying little tick in the book as well as the film and actually seemed slightly better in the film. Although, this may have been the casting; Sean Bean has more charisma in his little finger than Figgy Mountainback has in his whole body.

Frodo is constantly let down in the first film by having other characters interfere in his story (both Arwin and Aragorn) leaving it as a mystery why anyone would have as much faith in him as Gandalf seems to. In TTT he makes it even worse by acting like an idiot and showing the Ring to the Nazgul. Luckily, the Nazgul and Faramir are idiots too and let him wander off into Mordor without any further ado.

Aragorn just seems a bit of a drip; Logolas has the magical ability to transform himself into a CGI effect at will and Gimli has some sort of masturbation fetish.

Saruman's character, apart from becoming a class-A breakdancer, is sidelined to the point of wondering why he was in either of the first two films at all.

Galadriel suffers from whatever disease Legolas has, but at even less quality so she can only manipulate her own colour palette under stress.

Elrond has spent 8000+ years waiting for the chance to destroy Sauron and now that the chance has come he's utterly depressed and wants to run away. So much for the host of the last homely house and the last of the great lore-masters.

Gollum looks and sounds too much like Peter Lorrie and is generally not quite nasty seeming enough. Generally, though, he's not done too badly.

The first two films are utter, utter rubbish except visually. As a slideshow of Middle Earth's tourist attractions I can't imagine them being bettered. As a representation of the story they are worse than worthless. The thought that millions of people will think that this load of tripe was what JRRT wrote is an insult to his memory.

The worst thing is that all Jackson had to do was film the damn books. It was all there: he just had to compress and maybe re-order some events to make it filmable. But instead he started adding extra bits. And for every minute of new material we lost a minute of original material. The whole side-trip to Osgiliath was wasted time and budget; it advanced the plot not one iota while at the same time makeing Frodo, Faramir, and the Enemy look stupid. Likewise the embarrassing fight between Gandalf and Sauron and the tragicly unfeasible ending to the Seige of Helm's Deep which actually prompted some laughter in the cinema I saw it in.

Over and over again changes that achieved nothing were introduced and so we lost the Old Forest and the Dismissal of Saurman, the full Mirror of Galadriel, the Black Breath, the Ent's revenge on the Orcs, the Scouring of the Shire, not to mention some interesting material from UT that could have been included (eg, the Lord of the Nazgul's dealings with Wormtounge and Saruman).

In a word: "Bah!"
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Old 12-11-2003, 02:40 PM   #141
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Okay, I’m re-reading the books right now in anticipation of the RotK movie (I read them every year anyway). I love the movies if I forget everything I ever read from Tolkien because when I compare the characters I get a little crazy.

Let me say first that this has nothing to do with the actor’s performances. I think the performances have been amazing. It is the material they have been given that I have a problem with.

These are the changes that make me nuts:

Frodo – Tolkien repeatedly indicated through other characters that Frodo was thought to be the best Hobbit. In the book although he is scared, he still shows great courage and although the ring is trying to corrupt him he struggles to resist it until the very end. In the movie Frodo is scared but shows almost no courage. Where is his stand against the Nazgul both at Weathertop and at the Ford. All he does is whine. Also they are showing him be corrupted much to quickly. They could have shown the interior struggle through more physical changes without making him seem weak willed.

Sam – In the book Sam appears on the surface to be a little backward and shy, however he shows many times how sensible and resourceful he can be when tested. In the book Sam is Frodo’s loyal companion until close to the end when he must become even more. In the movie he comes across a bit of a bully and there is a tension between him and Frodo, and the choices Frodo is making, that you rarely felt in the book.

Theoden (and most of Rohan) – They have taken a kindly king of a powerful realm and made him a pompous, ineffectual ruler of a small, backward people.

Aragorn – In the book Aragorn may be torn between going with Frodo to Mordor or going to Gondor but he knows exactly who he is and has never turned from his true path. In actuality he has shown great fortitude in waiting for his time to claim his kingship. They portray Aragorn in the movie as turning from and not wanting to claim the thrown. Also in the book there is no relationship between Aragorn and Eowyn. Eowyn is enamored of Aragorn and wishes to love him as he is a king and is a way out of what she considers a lowly existence. He never turns from loving Arwen. The movie is playing up this relationship between two characters who hardly knew each other in the book.

Gollum – A great work of technology. However I never felt sorry for Gollum in the book. I did in the movie. I had to keep reminding myself that all he really wanted was the ring.

Faramir – He is never tempted by the ring in the book. What were they thinking of in the movie? They totally changed the essential make-up of his personality and character.

Although the movie takes liberties with other characters and makes many changes in what we have read, it is the changes to these characters which I object to the most strongly. I don’t think the changes were for the better.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:48 PM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Faenaduial ]
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