"People do not decide to become extraordinary.... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Mithalwen · 01-11-2008, 03:51 PM

They decide to accomplish extraordinary things."

“You don’t have to be a fantastic hero to do certain things – ... You can be just an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated.”

I found these quotations today as I had thought change my signature to commemorate the life of the mountaineer, Sir Edmund Hillary (to whom both are attributed). It has often been mentioned that the characters in Tolkien's works are predominantly of exalted birth and born to some high destiny. Other discussion have centred around the role of fate.

But these words made me think of hobbits and Sam in particular. Hobbits are not a particularly noble race but Sam alone (of any character of any significance) is not high status in his own culture. He will end up so in an admirable piece of social mobility but his achievement is not through the machinations of destiny or holding to the concept of nobless oblige, but becasue his determination to look after his master is sufficient motivation. I am not sure it makes him less of a hero - at least not in my eyes. Any thoughts or am I rambling again?

The Might · 01-11-2008, 05:26 PM

In many cases yes, they did go from rags to riches.
But... for example others like Arvedui or Aragorn were destined for such great deeds.
As Malbeth said, Arvedui would either become King of Gondor and of the Reunited Kingdom or all would have wait for another chance to come.

Lord Gothmog · 01-11-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

I am not sure it makes him less of a hero - at least not in my eyes.

Nor it would seem in the eyes of Tolkien.

From the ever-quoted letter 131 to Milton Waldman.

Quote:

I think the simple 'rustic' love of Sam and his Rosie (nowhere elaborated) is absolutely essential to the study of his (the chief hero's) character, and to the theme of the relation of ordinary life (breathing, eating, working, begetting) and quests, sacrifice, causes, and the 'longing for Elves', and sheer beauty.

In the case of Aragorn and others of similar stature, they did have a motivation to "decide to accomplish extraordinary things." This could be seen as being "Born to a high destiny", or simply wanting to "Live up to the stories of their forefathers". But in the case of Frodo he was thrust into the role of a "Hero" by accident while Sam ignored all other things in his life for the simple task of 'helping his Beloved Master' (I use the term Master in the same way that it is done in the book, that of employer and Master of the House.) In so doing, he became a greater hero.

Lalwendë · 01-13-2008, 11:32 AM

Aragorn was motivated by the possibility of becoming King, a sense of duty, the prize of winning his fair maiden, any number of things. Sam was motivated because he loved his friend, and that's as much motivation as anyone needs.

I like this idea, Mithalwen, maybe you could compare Sam to Sherpa Tensing? And it's odd (to me, at any rate...) how the achievement of conquering Everest came in the same decade as Lord of the Rings...

I'm sure if you decide to "become extraordinary" then everyone would laugh at you for being terribly presumptuous and maybe a little bit pretentious and would secretly be crossing their fingers that you fall flat on your face.

Or is this just an English thing?

smeagollives · 02-13-2008, 06:07 PM

I think Tolkien talked about the "enoblement of ignoble" one times. He said every one of us would be able to do great deeds. You just must be willing to make the right choices when confronted with it.

@Lalwendë: Well i am from Germany... and i think i am special (even extraordinary)... just as everybody else is. I think most people accomplished a thing or two in their lives which they can be proud of.

I think it is a good thing to decide to become extraordinary. You mustn't be a hero, just extraordinary your own way.

You english love understatement, don't you? I think you do not like big words.

Mithalwen · 02-15-2008, 01:45 PM

I am sorry that I have neglected this thread - I am afraid work and domestic duties have been taking priority.

Smeagollives, I think you slightly misunderstand what Lal is saying. This is not to deny that each individual is unique and precious - Tolkien I am sure would not intend that. Through Sam's eyes as he considers the dead Southron soldier in Ithilien we see the recognition that the enemy consist of individuals who, to quote Tim Collins, "did not plan to die this day".

What I am sure Tolkien, and Sir Edmund, would have deplored is the cult of vacuous fame - people seeking fame for its own sake in a shameless fashion. Look at the people who fill "celebrity" magazines - apart from the sports people who are genuinely talented in their field it is virtually a freak show.

Sam does not set out to be famous though he is not ignorant of fame. He is an admirable character - but and ordinary hobbit. He is achievement is the result of his determination to stick with his master. It is not blind devotion - he knows the score and carries on anyway. He is " an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated". Even Frodo, who is unusual according to the norms of his kind, does not set out to be extraordinary though it is an extraordinary thing he does.

There are a few characters in Tolkien who do set out to be extra ordinary in the "Look at me" kind of way Lal was suggesting. They don't generally make good ends.

Rikae · 02-20-2008, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I'm sure if you decide to "become extraordinary" then everyone would laugh at you for being terribly presumptuous and maybe a little bit pretentious and would secretly be crossing their fingers that you fall flat on your face.

Or is this just an English thing?

I suppose it may be an English thing. In the US, it's pretty much accepted (and expected) that everyone wants to "become extraordinary". If one doesn't, one is seen as kind of pathetic and boring...
(I, of course, already am extraordinary.

)

But, trying to remain somewhat on-topic, I'll add that Sam's humility, and the fact that his upward-mobility is not planned, make him a deeply un-American character. Which is, in my book, a good thing. (Actually, one of the main things that always strikes me as wonderfully different about Europe is that people there don't seem to be quite as consumed with insatiable ambition as Americans are.)

Rikae · 02-20-2008, 06:27 PM

I'll just add -- I wouldn't even say characters like Aragorn really "decide to do extraordinary things", at least not directly. All the "good guys" insofar as they are good, actually seem to lack ambition entirely and simply seek to fulfill their responsibilities. I never had the impression that Aragorn, for instance, cared much for being king for its own sake, he did what he had to do out of, presumably, a combination of love for Arwen and duty to defend the people of Middle-Earth.

01-11-2008, 03:51 PM	#1
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,530	"People do not decide to become extraordinary.... They decide to accomplish extraordinary things." “You don’t have to be a fantastic hero to do certain things – ... You can be just an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated.” I found these quotations today as I had thought change my signature to commemorate the life of the mountaineer, Sir Edmund Hillary (to whom both are attributed). It has often been mentioned that the characters in Tolkien's works are predominantly of exalted birth and born to some high destiny. Other discussion have centred around the role of fate. But these words made me think of hobbits and Sam in particular. Hobbits are not a particularly noble race but Sam alone (of any character of any significance) is not high status in his own culture. He will end up so in an admirable piece of social mobility but his achievement is not through the machinations of destiny or holding to the concept of nobless oblige, but becasue his determination to look after his master is sufficient motivation. I am not sure it makes him less of a hero - at least not in my eyes. Any thoughts or am I rambling again? __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

01-11-2008, 05:26 PM	#2
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,237	In many cases yes, they did go from rags to riches. But... for example others like Arvedui or Aragorn were destined for such great deeds. As Malbeth said, Arvedui would either become King of Gondor and of the Reunited Kingdom or all would have wait for another chance to come. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

01-13-2008, 11:32 AM	#4
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,750	Aragorn was motivated by the possibility of becoming King, a sense of duty, the prize of winning his fair maiden, any number of things. Sam was motivated because he loved his friend, and that's as much motivation as anyone needs. I like this idea, Mithalwen, maybe you could compare Sam to Sherpa Tensing? And it's odd (to me, at any rate...) how the achievement of conquering Everest came in the same decade as Lord of the Rings... I'm sure if you decide to "become extraordinary" then everyone would laugh at you for being terribly presumptuous and maybe a little bit pretentious and would secretly be crossing their fingers that you fall flat on your face. Or is this just an English thing? __________________ Gordon's alive!

02-15-2008, 01:45 PM	#6
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,530	I am sorry that I have neglected this thread - I am afraid work and domestic duties have been taking priority. Smeagollives, I think you slightly misunderstand what Lal is saying. This is not to deny that each individual is unique and precious - Tolkien I am sure would not intend that. Through Sam's eyes as he considers the dead Southron soldier in Ithilien we see the recognition that the enemy consist of individuals who, to quote Tim Collins, "did not plan to die this day". What I am sure Tolkien, and Sir Edmund, would have deplored is the cult of vacuous fame - people seeking fame for its own sake in a shameless fashion. Look at the people who fill "celebrity" magazines - apart from the sports people who are genuinely talented in their field it is virtually a freak show. Sam does not set out to be famous though he is not ignorant of fame. He is an admirable character - but and ordinary hobbit. He is achievement is the result of his determination to stick with his master. It is not blind devotion - he knows the score and carries on anyway. He is " an ordinary chap, sufficiently motivated". Even Frodo, who is unusual according to the norms of his kind, does not set out to be extraordinary though it is an extraordinary thing he does. There are a few characters in Tolkien who do set out to be extra ordinary in the "Look at me" kind of way Lal was suggesting. They don't generally make good ends. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

02-13-2008, 06:07 PM	#5
smeagollives Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 41	I think Tolkien talked about the "enoblement of ignoble" one times. He said every one of us would be able to do great deeds. You just must be willing to make the right choices when confronted with it. @Lalwendë: Well i am from Germany... and i think i am special (even extraordinary)... just as everybody else is. I think most people accomplished a thing or two in their lives which they can be proud of. I think it is a good thing to decide to become extraordinary. You mustn't be a hero, just extraordinary your own way. You english love understatement, don't you? I think you do not like big words.

02-20-2008, 06:27 PM	#8
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,499	I'll just add -- I wouldn't even say characters like Aragorn really "decide to do extraordinary things", at least not directly. All the "good guys" insofar as they are good, actually seem to lack ambition entirely and simply seek to fulfill their responsibilities. I never had the impression that Aragorn, for instance, cared much for being king for its own sake, he did what he had to do out of, presumably, a combination of love for Arwen and duty to defend the people of Middle-Earth.