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09-03-2015, 12:00 PM | #1 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
Abbreviation used in the text (which was not mentioned so far, as far as I know):
AT-M Athrabeth, manuscript Base text is the typescript of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, which is found in the Morgoth's Ring, the 10th volume of The History of Middle-earth. Quote:
1. In the later versions of the genealogies Adanel is sister of Magor, Hador's grandfather. 2. & 3. These changes are taken up from the manuscript of "Athrabeth" which adds additional information on the House of Bëor. Quote:
Now, concerning the change I made, it might be (probably is) a little too liberal, but Argon is (along with Amrod/Amarthan) the only prince of the Noldor to have died before the year in which the debate takes place. In addition, it would be nice (in my opinion) to insert a reference to a character that was otherwise 'lost' in the published Silmarillion. Quote:
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It was only after the death of Fingolfin that Finrod changed the name of his father from 'Arfin' to 'Finarfin'. If we follow this notion, then all references to 'Finarfin' as mentioned by the characters in the dialogue must be either removed or changed. I have chosen the later. Quote:
Again, the problem of chronology. At the time of the debate, Hador was pretty young (18 or 19) and it seems to me unlikely that the name of the House of Marach was changed to that of the House of Hador at such an early time in Hador's life.
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Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-03-2015 at 11:29 PM. |
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09-06-2015, 03:39 PM | #2 |
King's Writer
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It seems you did skip all the introduction. That is not as I would handle it. I would rather keep all of the introduction.
To your changes 1., 2. and 3. I agree. I agree that we have to skip the death of Fingolfin from speech of Finrod, but I find it to much of a liberty to introduce Argon here instaed. Arfin/Finarfin: I can understand how you arived at these changes, but I do not agree that the change is neccessary. If we would do it here, we would consequently have to change each and every name of the main charchters at least once in the long run of the Translation from the Elvish. With the main Charchters that might be possible, but with such small roles as Finarfin? I think we would leave our readers completly irritated. If we look into the published Silmarillion the names are rather stable. And I think that is an neccessity of readability or better understandability. Again I think that we have to use more of the Authors Note that introduced the Tale of Adanel. In the moment I am still in thought about how to do that, but I am sure that we should not take up the Tal of Adanel into the body of the text of the Athrabeht. It was Tolkiens explicite decision to let Andreth refuse to tell Finrod about the Fall of Men. In his commentray he gave the addition of the tal as a result of Númenorian editing. And it seems to me the best way to keep that destinction. Last but least I think that we have to discuss the passages where the time frame is hinted at. Two passages, I think, give at least the expression of a much longer time that elapsed between the awkening of Men and conversation of Andreth and Finrod. I will search the passages later and post them here for discussion. Respectfuly Findegil I agree that we have to change the Hador to Marach at the start of the Tale of Adanel. |
09-07-2015, 06:18 AM | #3 | ||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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09-07-2015, 07:34 AM | #4 | |
King's Writer
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Okay, I have at long least done my home work for this discussion. You will find in the following editorial marks as we used before and the editing as odl members are used to. To distiguish the points discussed here from that of other chapters I used AFA-ZZ to mark all points of interest.
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AFA-01: I tried to avoid the naming of the Tale of Adanel as an Appendix, therefore I intorduce this sub-heading and a similar one for that Tale under AFA-10. AFA-02: Under this reference we should discuss the complete intorduction and how much of it we would use. AFA-03 and AFA-04: As the Manuscript is the later text, I think we should use what is provided of it. AFA-05: This is Arvegils change 1. It is a bit strange to me that this was not changed in the small genalogical table provided by Christopher Tolkien. But things become clearer when we read in HoME 11. There Adanel is named a daughter of Malach Aradan and with this the sister of Magor. AFA-06 and AFA-07: These were Arvegils145 changes 2. and 3. but i think I edited them a bit diffrent. AFA-08: Even so I my self found the addition of Argon to liberal, I see now a strong need for a replacement for Fingolfin. It read very stange to mention Feanor as the only named dead. Alternativly we could either put some colloquila phrase like 'and many beside him' or we must skip the mention of Feanor as well. AFA-09 and AFA-10: These are the passages that suggest a longer time between the Fall of Men and the cinverstation between Finrod and Andreth. I agree somewhat hestitatingly to Arvegil145 that they might stand. AFA-11: Only the title. I skipt naming it appendix. AFA-12: Even if the style is bit awakward, I found the Note 9 useable as in intorduction supossedly written by the later editor of our book looking back to the through the ages of Middle-Earth. AFA-13: Since we have no reference we must provied one here. AFA-14 and AFA-15: Since we revaled in the introduction that we are dealing with a Numenorean source I think we could let the name House of Hador stand. But this can be disputed. Respectfuly Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-08-2015 at 08:51 AM. |
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09-08-2015, 06:58 AM | #5 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I agree with pretty much everything - but I still think that House of Finarfin should not be used - it is a matter of consistency, even though some readers might find it confusing.
House of Hador (in the beginning of the Tale of Adanel) - same thing.
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09-10-2015, 07:12 AM | #6 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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09-10-2015, 10:25 AM | #7 |
Wight
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Well I have to study all the post of this thread with more time. Only say faster that the introduction, I managed inserting it in the chapter Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar , to start the "tale" more "literaturist".
I'll follow the posts. Greetings |
09-10-2015, 08:23 PM | #8 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Sorry for being impatient, but I only have 4 weeks of free time, so I'm kind of rushing headlong!
But are we finished with the Athrabeth or is there something more to add (or exclude from) it?
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09-10-2015, 08:45 PM | #9 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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If we are finished with this I propose to start a thread on the chapter Of the Coming of the Elves. Since, as Findegil says, there are many points of dissension concerning that chapter - and as if that was not enough, the chapter is a mess, a mosaic of many different sources.
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09-12-2015, 04:21 PM | #10 |
King's Writer
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Arvegil145, didn't you say that you have read a lot in this part of the downs, before you started to post? Begin finished with a chapter would mean that a consensus would have been found about the discussed points. I can not see that this is the case with some of the points in the Athrabeth. Ba the way, I will not consider a agreement between you and me as sufficient.
Respectfuly Findegil P.S.: If you like to have our input to your 'Silamrillion-project', you have to accept our slow speed. From my experience, it will not fasten the process to put more and more texts for discussion out here. But I can not and will not force you not to post what ever you like. Last edited by Findegil; 09-13-2015 at 08:16 AM. |
09-13-2015, 11:06 AM | #11 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Well, what about Aiwendil and Maedhros? Have you contacted them? I think too, that there should be more than 2 people to form a consensus on certain problematic points.
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08-17-2017, 06:09 PM | #12 |
Quentingolmo
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Hi guys! I thought I'd add my 2 cents about the Athrabeth, to give a kinda third opinion and hopefully resolve some of the debates by allowing for more opinions.
I agree with Findegil on his point that it should be Finarfin, and not Arfin. This is too specific a linguistic gymnastic, and I think keeping the names the same throughout is better. However, I would favor Arvegil's option to keep it as "Arfin" whenever Finrod speaks, with a footnote using the quote from the shibboleth, presumably from the same author as the one who wrote the commentary on the Athrabeth. This is simply canonical fact that Finrod would have referred to him as Arfin, as FIngolfin was still high king ofthe Noldor. As for the question of including Argon in the list of the dead, if we were to add the lines about him from the Shibboleth into the story of the first battle of the Noldor, then I see no reason why his mention would cause canonical ire. It replaces the (already at the time of writing) contra-canon statement about the death of Fingolfin, and keeps the sense of the understanding of loss, while still being entirely canonically accurate. |
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