Unfinished Tales - Part Three - I - The Disaster of the Gladden Fields

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The actual text of this chapter is fairly brief - the notes are just as long! It is the account of the fate of Isildur after Sauron's fall, in more detail than was given in LotR. There are various details that give insights into more or less important facts concerning Middle-earth.

I'll start the discussion by tossing a few words into the ring: the Elendilmir - an interesting jewel with an interesting history, especially including its rediscovery much later. Thangail and dírnaith - two battle formations in a context that is of interest to those who like military tactics.

Names of characters about whom I would like to have heard more: Elendur ("strength and wisdom... majesty without pride, one of the greatest, the fairest of the seed of Elendil..."); Ohtar (Isildur's esquire, who risked a reputation as a coward to obey his lord and bring the shards of Narsil to safety); Estelmo (the sole survivor, Elendur's esquire).

I would like to have more information about the Dúnedain's emergency rations: not miruvor or lembas, but like them.

And finally I would like to mention a fascinating bit of information that climaxes in this sentence:

Saruman in his degradation had become not a dragon but a jackdaw.

After the notes there is an appendix: "Númenórean Linear Measures". Practical application is found in the origin of the word "Halfling" for Hobbits. How interesting and/or helpful is this information to you?

Has this chapter influenced or changed your opinon of Isildur? Is there a character (or several) that interests you? I look forward to hearing your thoughts!


Due to the briefness of this chapter, we will move on to the next one soon, unless discussion reaches such a feverish pitch that we need more time...

[Inziladun]

I enjoy this chapter.

The insight into Númenórean military tactics is rare in the books, and that much more appreciated. It's said here that they used their stature to their advantage in fighting the Orcs, and the Noldor-like quality of their arms and armour is notable; another sign of their being the closest among mortals to the Eldar.

As for Saruman being a jackdaw, that is defined as

a glossy, black, European bird, Corvus monedula, of the crow family, that nests in towers, ruins, etc.

Dragons find huge hoards of treasure and sit on them. Birds flit around looking for bits and pieces, mostly to use in nest-building, but sometimes snatching things up for apparently no reason.
Saruman as a tower-dwelling collector of shiny things he doesn't necessarily need (or even want) lends to an apt comparison there.

The Elendilmir is an odd thing. Why was Isildur wearing it in battle? Why did he not, as with the shards of Narsil, entrust it to Ohtar and his companion? Forgetfulness in the moment of stress?

I do admire Isildur for one thing, though. He earlier (according to the words of his scroll as recounted by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond) had thought the Ring suitable as an "heirloom" for Arnor. Yet, he shows that he indeed fully realized the peril of it at that point at the Gladden Fields, and it apparently never crossed his mind to try and give it to Ohtar to be carried away. The argument is there that maybe Isildur was incapable of giving the Ring up. However, I think he could have done it, had he desired to do so enough. He had not had it in his possession for very long, and Sauron was vanquished and far away. I think Isildur knew he stood a good chance of dying before he could reach any help, and the thought of doing so in the wilderness, where the Ring was unlikely to be found for at least many long years, was the main reason he retained it when he left. Indeed, what other reason did he have for leaving? Why not die with the rest of his men?

[Dilettante]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I do admire Isildur for one thing, though. He earlier (according to the words of his scroll as recounted by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond) had thought the Ring suitable as an "heirloom" for Arnor. Yet, he shows that he indeed fully realized the peril of it at that point at the Gladden Fields, and it apparently never crossed his mind to try and give it to Ohtar to be carried away. The argument is there that maybe Isildur was incapable of giving the Ring up. However, I think he could have done it, had he desired to do so enough. He had not had it in his possession for very long, and Sauron was vanquished and far away. I think Isildur knew he stood a good chance of dying before he could reach any help, and the thought of doing so in the wilderness, where the Ring was unlikely to be found for at least many long years, was the main reason he retained it when he left. Indeed, what other reason did he have for leaving? Why not die with the rest of his men?

Good point! Perhaps Isildur had the Ring just long enough that it was starting to take hold of him, but not quite long enough that he still had his own will. Maybe he saw what it was starting to do to him and realized what a terrible thing it would be, so he ran away with it in an attempt to keep his men and his descendants from the same fate.

[Galadriel55]

I must say I really loved the narrative of the chapter. The story is glossed over briefly in LOTR, and I was so happy to uncover a separate mini-tragedy in it as well. When I was reading it I had oh so many points to make, but now I can barely remember them.

I wasn't really thinking about the technical details and explanations for things such as the Elindimir. However, I quite enjoyed the dimension it added to the story (the bitterness of Saruman's treachery, for example).

When before UT this was a few odd facts put together, after this chapter it became a story.

[Guinevere]

As Esty said, the story itself is really short, but as I kept switching to the notes it took me quite a long time to read! In addition, I looked up places on the map several times. There are a lot of geographical descriptions! (Also in the appendices c & d of the last chapter which I finally managed to read as well.) However, these notes add greatly to the feeling of reality.

I wondered a bit about these orcs beeing completely ignorant of Sauron's destruction two years afterwards... compared to the text in RotK :

even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them;

As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope

What moved me most in the story is the poignant dialogue between Isildur and Elendur, and I have much more sympathy for Isildur after reading this.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I wondered a bit about these orcs beeing completely ignorant of Sauron's destruction two years afterwards... compared to the text in RotK

Ah, but destroying Sauron doesn't destroy all evil. It is shaken by his fall - it is not organised, not backed up, it lacks motivation beyond personal gain or survival, etc. - but it's still there. That host of orcs was by no means something ME-threatening; just a band of scattered orcs that grouped together two years after their great loss.

[Formendacil]

Continuing my catch-up of the UT CbC...

"The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" is one of my favourite pieces in Unfinished Tales. I'm not entirely certain why, though I suspect several of the reasons have already been mentioned on this thread:

1. Characters like Elendur, Ohtar, Estelmo, about whom I'd like to hear more.

2. Details of Númenórean technology and culture from the turn of the Age. This is the closest look we'll ever get to the great armies of the late 2nd Age (even though it's technically the beginning of the Third). Isildur's company probably looks, in miniature, not that much different from Ar-Pharazôn's army that landed in Umbar.

3. The Elendilmir's story. The glimpse into Saruman's backstory (which is also touched on in a number of the other Unfinished Tales) is fascinating, and as a Canadian monarchist, I've always felt a special affection for the dwindled north-Kingdom of Arnor and any scrap of information about it--less frequent than information about Gondor--is welcome.

4. Tolkien's original footnotes. It makes for dense reading if you try and read them alongside the text, but they make for a fascinating case of a "primary text" with "editorial notes"--and the information within them is very welcome, and they WOULD muck up the main text if he tried to work them all in.

Mostly, however, I think what I like about "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" is how it turns Isildur into a sympathetic character. It's been a very long time now since I first read Unfinished Tales, but I can vaguely remember the days before I had, and in those days I didn't really care for Isildur and the story of his loss--and the loss of the Ring--seemed a distant happening, hardly the tragedy that the loss of Arnor's king and and the malevolence of the Ring should have made it. This piece changes that perception completely.

EDIT: An additional thought, that I mean to include: in this tale, one of the footnotes makes mention of what must surely be the sort of blade that the Hobbits acquire in the Barrow-downs:

Originally Posted by Footnote 28

This was of a kind called eket: a short stabbing sword with a broad blade , pointed and two-edged, from a foot to one and a half feet long.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

The actual text of this chapter is fairly brief - the notes are just as long! It is the account of the fate of Isildur after Sauron's fall, in more detail than was given in LotR. There are various details that give insights into more or less important facts concerning Middle-earth.

I'll start the discussion by tossing a few words into the ring: the Elendilmir - an interesting jewel with an interesting history, especially including its rediscovery much later. Thangail and dírnaith - two battle formations in a context that is of interest to those who like military tactics.

Names of characters about whom I would like to have heard more: Elendur ("strength and wisdom... majesty without pride, one of the greatest, the fairest of the seed of Elendil..."); Ohtar (Isildur's esquire, who risked a reputation as a coward to obey his lord and bring the shards of Narsil to safety); Estelmo (the sole survivor, Elendur's esquire).

I would like to have more information about the Dúnedain's emergency rations: not miruvor or lembas, but like them.

And finally I would like to mention a fascinating bit of information that climaxes in this sentence:

After the notes there is an appendix: "Númenórean Linear Measures". Practical application is found in the origin of the word "Halfling" for Hobbits. How interesting and/or helpful is this information to you?

Has this chapter influenced or changed your opinon of Isildur? Is there a character (or several) that interests you? I look forward to hearing your thoughts!


Due to the briefness of this chapter, we will move on to the next one soon, unless discussion reaches such a feverish pitch that we need more time...

## If it's not to late to comment.....

The info about Meneldil is very helpful. There is one major puzzle - the chronology. In the notes we are given the following dates of birth:

Amandil 3029
Elendil 3119
Isildur 3209
Elendur 3299

So far, so good - within TDotGF, the dates raise no problems. But read the Akallabeth, and it looks very much as though 3119 was meant to be the birthdate of Amandil - not of Elendil. Otherwise, the dating in the "Annals of the Kings & Rulers" is difficult (not quite impossible) to reconcile with the statement in Akallabeth that Amandil had been a "playmate" of Ar-Pharazon. According to the AK&R, Pharazon was born in 3118 - a year before Elendil, son of Amandil.

As the difficulty arises from the notes to TDotGF, & would not exist if we did not these dates, to mention it is (I think) O-T (if barely). (There are further problems, but that is quite enough to be going on with )

I would like to have known the name of the third survivor of the disaster.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

## If it's not to late to comment...

It's never too late to add to a discussion here! Welcome to the Downs - we hope to see more of your interesting posts!

[Tuor in Gondolin]

It's remarkable how much more likeable/human this chapter
makes Isilidur then PJ's cartoonish picturing in the prologue of
the movie FotR. Ditto for the awful depiction of Numenorean
defending against an orc attack. The book section description
hearkens to Harold's shieldwall against that Bastard William.

I'd thnk such a "rehabilitation" of Isildur was much of the point
of Tolkien's writing this section.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

It's remarkable how much more likeable/human this chapter makes Isilidur then PJ's cartoonish picturing in the prologue of the movie FotR. Ditto for the awful depiction of Numenorean defending against an orc attack. The book section description hearkens to Harold's shieldwall against that Bastard William.

I'd thnk such a "rehabilitation" of Isildur was much of the point of Tolkien's writing this section.

## The account of Isildur in the films was very unfair - it was so one-sided, as if that failure were all there was to him. And to make Elrond the speaker of some of the harsher remarks (several of them not even in the texts) was worse. Which is not a criticism of Hugo Weaving's Elrond, BTW: I think he played the part superbly - even with all the "Arwenisation". IMO it's very important that "Isildur took the Ring, as should not have been", for reasons that were, to say the least, excusable: he had excellent reasons for making a terribly misguided decision. To present him as a stubborn fool leaves out some essential details of his choice. If he's been as PJ pictures him, the grievousness of the decision he made would have been far less.

This section shows (what the Akallabeth had shown already) that there is much more to Isildur than his failure to destroy the Ring. I wish Tolkien had written about the time between the death of Elendil, & the point at which TDofTGF begins. At least there are glimpses. I thought the info about Meneldil was especially interesting - the notes to the text gives him a character & a date of birth, whereas previously he was no more than a name with a death-date. One person we don't hear about is Isildur's Queen - something is said of his other relatives, but I don't remember that anything is said of her. Maybe she died before Year 2 T. A. This section would be superb in a film - one largely about the Second Age, say. The story has buckets of pathos, plenty of action, suspense, heroism, emotional ambiguity - it's memorable and vivid, even on the page. All the characters are multi-dimensional - not one is a cardboard cut-out.

Thanks for pointing out the similarity between William of Normandy & the Orcs - I never noticed it before

[Faramir Jones]

Welcome to the Downs, Saurondil!

I certainly agree with you and the others that this story gives Isildur more depth as a character, something I was glad about when I first finished reading it. He now realises that he was wrong to keep the Ring, and believes that one of the keepers of the Three Rings would be a better guardian of it.

I particularly liked the depiction of Elendur, Isildur's eldest son, and the fact that Aragorn II was held by those who knew the former to greatly resemble him.

The depiction of Meneldil was particularly interesting; because his character, combined with the death of Isildur and his three eldest sons, explains the beginning of the division between Gondor and Arnor. While Meneldil might have accepted his uncle as overlord, he was unlikely to have so accepted his cousin Valandil, a minor, younger than him, and born in Middle-earth; so he would have behaved as an independent ruler. As Arnor declined and Gondor increased in power and influence, Meneldil's descendants and successors would have continued this policy.

[Saurondil]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Welcome to the Downs, Saurondil!

I certainly agree with you and the others that this story gives Isildur more depth as a character, something I was glad about when I first finished reading it. He now realises that he was wrong to keep the Ring, and believes that one of the keepers of the Three Rings would be a better guardian of it.

I particularly liked the depiction of Elendur, Isildur's eldest son, and the fact that Aragorn II was held by those who knew the former to greatly resemble him.

The depiction of Meneldil was particularly interesting; because his character, combined with the death of Isildur and his three eldest sons, explains the beginning of the division between Gondor and Arnor. While Meneldil might have accepted his uncle as overlord, he was unlikely to have so accepted his cousin Valandil, a minor, younger than him, and born in Middle-earth; so he would have behaved as an independent ruler. As Arnor declined and Gondor increased in power and influence, Meneldil's descendants and successors would have continued this policy.

## TY for the welcome

I thought it was a shame that one of Isildur's three elder sons could not have been spared - as (say) the third man to escape the slaughter with Ohtar & Estelmo. Tolkien can be quite pitiless in killing off his characters. (I also wanted to Hurin to escape, after all Morgoth put him through - but no...) That point about Meneldil is good - I never thought of the separation coming about like that.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Saurondil

## TY for the welcome

I thought it was a shame that one of Isildur's three elder sons could not have been spared - as (say) the third man to escape the slaughter with Ohtar & Estelmo. Tolkien can be quite pitiless in killing off his characters. (I also wanted to Hurin to escape, after all Morgoth put him through - but no...) That point about Meneldil is good - I never thought of the separation coming about like that.

At least he's honest. Like you, I was saddened, although I realised that in those days monarchs and their heirs really did lead their troops into battle, with the consequent risks of death, injury or capture. Even in real life, King George II of Great Britain and Ireland led his troops into battle as late as 1743:

[William Cloud Hicklin]

... actually as late as 1870.

http://personal.ashland.edu/~jmoser1/sedan.htm

[alatar]

I too had fallen into the 'PJ' movies are from source material' pit.

Now rereading the UT after a long time, I find Isildur quite reasonable. His flight even makes more sense than the silliness depicted in the movie. Though briefly depicted, you can kinda feel his pain as he leaves his son(s) behind.

And as Esty has noted, I found the battle formations interesting and realistic.

[Belegorn]

The last thing any prince wants to do is to have some captain have all the glory. That's the way to get himself ousted by said captain. Princes should always learn the art of war. Some of the French kings were not the greatest, well at least in some periods around the plague era, like when the English King captured the French King.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

As I'm rereading UT now, it's remarkable how much JRRT improved on Isildur in his later writings on him and the Gladdeen Fields, unlike PJ's cartoonish guy, in the movie getting lucky taking out Sauron and his almost Snidely Whiplash leering in deciding to keep the Ring and cheerfully abandon his men.

Projecting an alternate world where Isildur did throw in the Ring what happens? A more solid North Kingdom, with isildur and his older sons surviving. And what happens with the elves. Presumably the Three Rings lose their power at once. No propped up Lothlorien. And there's still the problem of the majority of Men in the east and South, corrupted by Sauron.

[Belegorn]

I would think like Aragorn to some degree Isildur would have to deal with the remnants of the enemie's forces and have various, "expeditions against enemies in the East" [Letter 244]. Of course, the Dúnedain were more numerous in that period compared to the very few remnants left in Aragorn's time. Things might be a bit easier with a power like Sauron gone for the Númenóreans.

I'd suppose the Elves would leave over a period of time, excepting the dark Elves.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

2. Details of Númenórean technology and culture from the turn of the Age. This is the closest look we'll ever get to the great armies of the late 2nd Age (even though it's technically the beginning of the Third). Isildur's company probably looks, in miniature, not that much different from Ar-Pharazôn's army that landed in Umbar.

This chapter gave an insight, however brief, of the battle tactics used by the armies of the west, and was again employed by Aragorn in the final battle before the Black Gate.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

EDIT: An additional thought, that I mean to include: in this tale, one of the footnotes makes mention of what must surely be the sort of blade that the Hobbits acquire in the Barrow-downs:

From my original readings of the Appendices, I always had it in my head that the north were more Númenórean in their thinking. My 1st reading of Unfinished Tales - The Disaster of the Gladden Fields footnotes had also confirmed what I had expected about the swords of Westernesse that the Hobbits acquired.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

From my original readings of the Appendices, I always had it in my head that the north were more Númenórean in their thinking.

I'm not sure if either quite was. The Northern line let the South basically become a sovereign state. I'd have been like, "I'm the High-King, don't get it twisted." The waning of the Dúnedain involved kin-strife and war in the South, also the fact that such was the way of Middle-earth, and also the splitting of the kingdoms. The Kingdom split, members of the kings-house split, in the North and in the South especially, and they split with custom not only mingling with lesser Men, but becoming more and more like them. In the South they were still great mariners and Gondor became a lesser version of Númenor. Although behavior in the South to members of the King's house led to relatives forsaking their lineage and mingling with lesser Men, sometimes they were killed off, or banished, or ended up like the 22nd King of Gondor and his immediate family.

[Snowdog]

It was just my initial thoughts back 30 some years ago. In actuality, both kingdoms in exile had their royal troubles, much like Numenor itself.