What was the actual End? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Luinëcolloien · 10-17-2002, 12:38 PM

In a lot of Tolkien's writings, and in a lot of writings about Tokien's writings, there is reference to 'The End.' By this I mean the real End. For example, someone said that 'even after the Ring was destroyed, there was still a shapeless shadow of evil lurking until The End' and somewhere in the Silmarillion it says about the awakening of Elves that these creatures would be immortal, and not die, unless being slain or of grief, and would live until The End. (that's not the exact quote, sorry). I was just wondering if anyone actually knows what The End was. What happened, are there any writings of it? Opinions appreaciated, thanks for reading!

Legolas · 10-17-2002, 02:13 PM

Dagor Dagorath, the final battle, will take place. Manwë will defeat Morgoth and Arda will be unmade.

Quote:

Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.

After 'the End':

Quote:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

About what *exactly* happens in that last battle, I won't say. I think you should read it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Turambar · 10-17-2002, 03:07 PM

This site has one version of The End. As Legalos says, read it - especially the third last paragraph --and note who has the starring role. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ]

Galorme · 10-17-2002, 03:10 PM

I can give you a few things that will happen. The sun will crash into the world, and Morgoth shall decend. The men who were enchanted around the enchanted isles shall awake. The silmirils shall come forth from the sky, from the sea, and from the earth, and their light shall rekindle the trees. The elves will be old, and wise, and they will be very unlike they are now, being at last old. And the armies of the Valar will fight the armies of morgoth, and the Maia shall fight Maia, and man shall fight man, and the spirits that the elves have become shall fight the wraths and spirits of Morgoth. Morgoth will return as a beast of power. He shall be faced with Fionwe and Turin, and at the hands of Turin's black sword he shall perish. But the world will reach its end, and the lifespans of the elves also, and they will die, the death that they have long envied of men.

And all things on Arda shall perish, save the Valar and the Maia, and the souls of men shall be gathered in the halls of Eru, and there they shall make a great music. And each shall see in the song themselves, and how their actions changed the world, and made it better and furthered the beauty of Creation. And Eru will see that all he has created enhanced the glory of himself, and seeing that the new song is enhances, he shall give it being. And the world will be made anew.

Feel free to chalange me on any part of that, it is a mishmash of old legends, discarded stories, and combinations of storys based on assumptions. But I think it gives a pretty good account of what will happen.

HerenIstarion · 10-18-2002, 02:22 AM

Turambar, you've lost your starring role in later rewriting, as well as Alkalagon the Black did. As for the real end, it's simple:

and they lived happily ever after

Diamond18 · 10-18-2002, 10:19 AM

Oh yes, Helen...I like that end the best! (But of course, Túrin's idea of living happily ever after would have to start with some heady vindication followed by being counted among the gods!) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Turambar · 10-18-2002, 10:21 AM

LOL at "Helen". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Diamond18 · 10-18-2002, 10:31 AM

Ack, typo! I'm sorry...I'd change it but you already caught it...you nasty man. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Turambar · 10-18-2002, 10:35 AM

Sorry -- I wasn't really giving you guff for a minor typo -- it's just that H-I has been here forever and it looked funny to see him called. "Helen". The face that launched a thousand Vingilots . . . [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-18-2002, 10:43 AM

I'd heard of the Dagor Dragollach but I never knew that's what happened. I'm amazed! Is the story reliable? And did JRRT tell people about it or was it found out after his death?

***Mithadan*** · 10-18-2002, 02:56 PM

The tale woven by Galorme is, as was said, a combination of versions of the Dagor Dagorath crafted by Tolkien at various times. Some have suggested that JRRT abandoned the idea completely in favor of Middle Earth becoming our world after the departure of the Elves. Others say that the concept of a Battle to End All Battles is consistent not only with Judeo-Christian beliefs but the beliefs of other religons and that even though Middle Earth becomes Earth, that Tolkien still held to the idea as woven into present day myths.

HerenIstarion · 10-19-2002, 01:21 AM

oh, I made a mistake, the real end must read as follows:

and they all lived happily ever after

never mind, Diamond 18 [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 10-19-2002, 05:42 AM

Dagor Dagorath, sorry.

So what does that tell us about the fate of Men, if Turin appears again?

the phantom · 10-21-2002, 05:46 PM

Thanks for the link Turumbar! I'd never read that before. Turin is my favorite character so I liked the ending.
To answer Eomer, it still doesn't tell us anything about the fate of men, since Turin is considered a God (that's so cool, go Turin!!). The reading says "But of men in that day the prophesy speaks not...".
Maybe our fate and destiny is up to us, since Turin conquered doom.

Legolas · 10-21-2002, 08:34 PM

I guess we threw out the read-it-yourself concept.

I think, especially with something like this, it is best for the person to read Tolkien's version to experience it the way it was intended to be experienced.

10-17-2002, 12:38 PM	#1
Luinëcolloien Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 31	What was the actual End? In a lot of Tolkien's writings, and in a lot of writings about Tokien's writings, there is reference to 'The End.' By this I mean the real End. For example, someone said that 'even after the Ring was destroyed, there was still a shapeless shadow of evil lurking until The End' and somewhere in the Silmarillion it says about the awakening of Elves that these creatures would be immortal, and not die, unless being slain or of grief, and would live until The End. (that's not the exact quote, sorry). I was just wondering if anyone actually knows what The End was. What happened, are there any writings of it? Opinions appreaciated, thanks for reading! __________________ (·.(·.·¤·.·).·) «Luinëcolloien» (.·(.··¤··.)·.)

10-17-2002, 03:07 PM	#3
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	This site has one version of The End. As Legalos says, read it - especially the third last paragraph --and note who has the starring role. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Turambar ] __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

10-17-2002, 03:10 PM	#4
Galorme Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London Posts: 337	I can give you a few things that will happen. The sun will crash into the world, and Morgoth shall decend. The men who were enchanted around the enchanted isles shall awake. The silmirils shall come forth from the sky, from the sea, and from the earth, and their light shall rekindle the trees. The elves will be old, and wise, and they will be very unlike they are now, being at last old. And the armies of the Valar will fight the armies of morgoth, and the Maia shall fight Maia, and man shall fight man, and the spirits that the elves have become shall fight the wraths and spirits of Morgoth. Morgoth will return as a beast of power. He shall be faced with Fionwe and Turin, and at the hands of Turin's black sword he shall perish. But the world will reach its end, and the lifespans of the elves also, and they will die, the death that they have long envied of men. And all things on Arda shall perish, save the Valar and the Maia, and the souls of men shall be gathered in the halls of Eru, and there they shall make a great music. And each shall see in the song themselves, and how their actions changed the world, and made it better and furthered the beauty of Creation. And Eru will see that all he has created enhanced the glory of himself, and seeing that the new song is enhances, he shall give it being. And the world will be made anew. Feel free to chalange me on any part of that, it is a mishmash of old legends, discarded stories, and combinations of storys based on assumptions. But I think it gives a pretty good account of what will happen. __________________ Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!

10-18-2002, 02:22 AM	#5
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,301	Turambar, you've lost your starring role in later rewriting, as well as Alkalagon the Black did. As for the real end, it's simple: and they lived happily ever after __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

10-18-2002, 10:19 AM	#6
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	Oh yes, Helen...I like that end the best! (But of course, Túrin's idea of living happily ever after would have to start with some heady vindication followed by being counted among the gods!) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-18-2002, 10:21 AM	#7
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	LOL at "Helen". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

10-18-2002, 10:31 AM	#8
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,561	Ack, typo! I'm sorry...I'd change it but you already caught it...you nasty man. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-18-2002, 10:35 AM	#9
Turambar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Non-Stop Home Posts: 859	Sorry -- I wasn't really giving you guff for a minor typo -- it's just that H-I has been here forever and it looked funny to see him called. "Helen". The face that launched a thousand Vingilots . . . [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ In the upper air the fireflies move more slowly.

10-18-2002, 10:43 AM	#10
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	I'd heard of the Dagor Dragollach but I never knew that's what happened. I'm amazed! Is the story reliable? And did JRRT tell people about it or was it found out after his death? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-18-2002, 02:56 PM	#11
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,310	The tale woven by Galorme is, as was said, a combination of versions of the Dagor Dagorath crafted by Tolkien at various times. Some have suggested that JRRT abandoned the idea completely in favor of Middle Earth becoming our world after the departure of the Elves. Others say that the concept of a Battle to End All Battles is consistent not only with Judeo-Christian beliefs but the beliefs of other religons and that even though Middle Earth becomes Earth, that Tolkien still held to the idea as woven into present day myths. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

10-19-2002, 01:21 AM	#12
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,301	oh, I made a mistake, the real end must read as follows: and they all* lived happily ever after* never mind, Diamond 18 [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

10-19-2002, 05:42 AM	#13
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,992	Dagor Dagorath, sorry. So what does that tell us about the fate of Men, if Turin appears again? __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

10-21-2002, 05:46 PM	#14
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 6,121	Thanks for the link Turumbar! I'd never read that before. Turin is my favorite character so I liked the ending. To answer Eomer, it still doesn't tell us anything about the fate of men, since Turin is considered a God (that's so cool, go Turin!!). The reading says "But of men in that day the prophesy speaks not...". Maybe our fate and destiny is up to us, since Turin conquered doom. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

10-21-2002, 08:34 PM	#15
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,850	I guess we threw out the read-it-yourself concept. I think, especially with something like this, it is best for the person to read Tolkien's version to experience it the way it was intended to be experienced. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

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