Could the Three be made again?

[Losthuniel]

this ws a random thought that occured to me during a boring Mother's day brunch: (looking at this theoretically) could the elves make the Three again? i havent read the Sil, so im not that knowledgeable on the subject, but do you think they would be able to do it again? (soryy, i know its a dumb thought, but it wouldnt leave me alone until i posted). dont get to ****ed off at me for my dumbness.

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Losthuniel ]

[piosenniel]

(soryy, i know its a dumb thought, but it wouldnt leave me alone until i posted). dont get to ****ed off at me for my dumbness.

I honestly don't know the answer to your question. But please don't apologize or call yourself 'dumb'. The question was a good one. This is a good place to ask it, since I'm sure a knowledgeable person will come forth with the answer,or for that matter, many answers!

I am looking forward to the answer myself!

[Legolas]

This question brings with it others. Where would the power for the Three rings come from? How many elves are actually left in ME? How many of those have knowledge of the craft? Of what use would the rings be?

[Evenstar1]

By "three," I'm assuming you mean the 3 silmarils (of which I, too, know extremely little). But, yeah, if they could make them once, why couldn't they make them again? Or steal them back from Morgoth? After all, he's a prisoner of Earendil, right?

[Losthuniel]

i was talking about the elven rings, but thats an interesting thought about the Silmarils. i havent read the Sil (finished i should say, im reading it)and i dont kno what happend to the Silmarils or Morgoth. what were the Silamrils supposed to be anyway?
ps: o, ur so nice poisenniel. i feel so loved : )

[Mhoram]

An excellent question. Theoretically i'd have to say yes they could be. It seems the only thing required to make such amazing works as the rings and silmarils is the knowledge how and a spirit strong enough.

The Silmarils were made by Feanor himself, the greatest elf ever and the rings were made by one of his grandsons with the help/knowledge of Sauron. So it wouldn't really be a likely thing to happen but if an elf, or perhaps even man, was born with a spirit as strong as these great elves of the past...and the knowledge was provided to him by some means..yes it could happen. An idea for a fan fic but nothing more.

Evenstar1: Morgoth doesn't have the Silmarils any more. Gotta read the Silm [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

I thought that it said in the Sil that even Feanor himself could not have remade the Silmarils. I'm in the middle of a move and my books are packed up so I can't check for myself, but I think it says that when the Valar are asking for them after the death of the Trees.

As for anybody else making them, they could not because the Trees were no more. The Light had to be captured from the Trees themselves.

As for reforging the Three Rings, the Rings had not been lost, they still had them. The Rings had just lost their power because the One Ring was gone. Even the Elven Rings seemed to require Sauron's existance to function properly.

The Elves were also leaving, so what good would they be anyway.

[Losthuniel]

the question is: why did the elven rings need Sauron's ring to be intact to function proplerly? and could only elves use them? becuz, the one ring could be used by anyone, as long as they had the strength to do it. is the case the same for the elven rings?

[Mankáno]

The three rings were not destroyed, they just lost their power.

I hardly doubt that they would be able to make them again, or make another set.

Celebrinbor, the maker was dead and nobody in Middle Earth had his skills, he was second only to Feanor, and I suspect that even Celebrinbor maybe wouldn't have been able to reproduce his work (taking what was said by Feanor and Yavanna that for there are some works that can only be done once).

The question of why the three were bound to the one ring is a good one, and it has no answer.

the three weren't made by Sauron, he never even touched them, and apparently, the relation between the three and the one wasn't known even by the wise.

During the Elrond council, Gloin asked what would happened with the elves rings if the one was destroyed and Elrond said he didn't know that he thought they would lose their power, but he didn't know for sure.

All I can think, and this is my own idea as I haven't read anywhere is that even being very different in power, malice and objectives, the elves, ring, the one ring and all the other ring were in essentially the same, worked the same way.

The three were not made by Sauron, but Celebrinbor used his own skills enhanced for what he learned from Sauron. So, even though Sauron never touched them, he knew about their making, he knew how they worked and somehow, he could master the one ring to control them, using his superior skills and power.

[Kuruharan]

There was some sort of connection between the Three and the One because if Sauron obtained the One, then he could read the thoughts and see the designs of the wearers of the Three. How exactly that connection was made I don't know because, as Mankáno said, Sauron never touched the Three.

[Evenstar1]

Hmmm. Wait a minute. I'm a little lost. Can anyone explain to me what exactly WAS the power of the 3 Elven Rings? (Or the 7 Dwarf-Rings, or the 9 Men-Rings, other than to potentially bind the wearer to Sauron's will?) I don't remember any specifics on the nature of any of those "powers" in LOTR (and yes, Mhor, you're right: I DO need to read the Sil!) Please enlighten me, O Wise Ones!

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm. Wait a minute. I'm a little lost. Can anyone explain to me what exactly WAS the power of the 3 Elven Rings?

The Three were meant to resist the effects of time. Rivendell and Lothlorien were preserved in a kind of 'time bubble'; the land aged slowly and was more or less untouched by the blemishes of ageing. In fact they existed almost as seperate universes, explaining why Sam couldn't figure out what day of the month it was after he had left. Lothlorien and Rivendell probably defended themselves as such -- bending time in favour of their own warriors.
I believe the Three could also play mind tricks on people -- we saw this on Frodo. Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf because with it, Gandalf could 'broadcast' emotions to people and therefore do his work more efficiently.

How exactly that connection was made I don't know because, as Mankáno said, Sauron never touched the Three.

Was it something to do with Sauron's knowledge of the Rings and how they worked? Sauron helped make the Sevn and the Nine, so he knew their secrets and could key his ring into sync with them. Then, knowing how these rings worked, perhaps he could guess the workings of the Three -- he had worked with Celembrimbor, he knew his style -- and bind his ring with them like that.

Or perhaps it was more simple. The Rings of Power must all have had some common attributes (they were all rings for a start -- there was probably more).

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Legolas]

Also, with the three rings, I believe each carried with it certain powers that allowed the bearer to control the natural element his/her ring was named for...

Nenya - water
Vilya - air
Narya - fire

[Losthuniel]

could only elves use the Three? would a man useing one of the elven rings have the same effect as an elf? wat do u think?

[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: Losthuniel ]

[Mankáno]

I think that as the one ring, they gave power according to the power of who was wearing them. Maybe someone like Aragorn could use that power but I doubt many others.

[Losthuniel]

yet another random thought (if i didnt have random thoughts, i wouldnt think): Celebrinbor died, yes? well, elves go to the halls of Mandos, until they are ready to return to earth. so when celebrinbor returns, he has all his original knowledge of the Rings, then would it be possible for him to reamke them?

[Kuruharan]

When Elves return they go to Valinor, not Middle earth. Glorfindel was the lone exception.
When Celebrimbor gets out of Mandos he will retain his knowledge, but being in Valinor he will have no reason to remake the rings.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Following on from that post... does anyone know specifically why Glorfindel was allowed out of the Undying Lands? I'd be interested to know, if anyone can help me. Never really wondered why before, for some reason.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

This has been brought up before, though I can't recall where. One of these rambling discussions. One theory is that Tolkien goofed, used the same name twice, and then made up an explanation to cover it. Just like the two versions of The Hobbit was covered, very cleverly too, by blaming it on Bilbo attempting to lay claim to the ring.

[Arwen Imladris]

One thought about the rings, didn't Sauron help the elves develope the craft? He did not actually touch the rings, but he was involved somehow. I think that somewhere the some elf says that the elves will never be tricked into helping Sauron again. Does that have anything to do with the rings?

[Losthuniel]

thanx Kuruharan for covering some holes in my scant knowledge. i havent finished the Silm, so chalk it up to ignorance, if i say things that appear to be obvious. and that probably does have something to do wiv it, Arwen Imladris, but ya wouldnt want to ask me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Am I right in saying that you haven't yet read the appendixes, Arwen? I suggest you do. It'll explain your question, plus a lot more; it's also got a few interesteing odds and ends that are well worth reading, a timeline of the history of the second and third ages, and the royal lines of Rohan, Gondor, and Arnor.

To answer your question... O

One thought about the rings, didn't Sauron help the elves develope the craft? He did not actually touch the rings, but he was involved somehow. I think that somewhere the some elf says that the elves will never be tricked into helping Sauron again. Does that have anything to do with the rings?

Sauron could, in the days of the early Second Age when the Rings of Power were made, change form and if he wished appear charming and noble. The Elves in those days did not know who he was, believing him to be charming and noble, as he appeared.
Tricking the Elves of Hollin like this, he soon gained their trust, and aided them much in the work that went into creating the Rings of Power. He proved a valuable aid in the forging of the Lesser Rings. Then, when Celembrimbor and his craftsmen proceeded onto the Rings of Power, Sauron helped them forge the Seven and the Nine. That's why his influence fell on them, and they became filled with evil.
The Three were the only Rings that Sauron never touched; he helped Celembrimbor work out how to make them, but he didn't play a part in their actual forging. This is why they don't contain any traces of evil in them.

. One theory is that Tolkien goofed, used the same name twice, and then made up an explanation to cover it.

Somehow I don't think so, mate. Plenty of names have occured twice in ME; Tolkien would need no explanation to cover up the simple recurring of a name. Anyway they were both the same person from the start -- golden-haired, and very powerful.
Perhaps Glorfindel's love for Middle-Earth was stronger than usual, or somehthing like that.

[Tarthang]

Well I believe that someone having the knowledge and strength of Celebrimbor could have made new Rings had they wanted.
And because Sauron helped teach/develop the elvish smith's Ring-lore and aided in the forging of all but the three. Therefore his influence was present in all the rings, so when he made the One, he was able to gain control over the other rings and further strengthen his influence ove the rings powers and thereby gaining influence and control over the ring-bearers.
To the best of my knowledge, since Celebrimbor forged the three in secret, Sauron was not aware of them initally. But since Ring-lore (at least it seems a large part of it) came from Sauron, the One enabled him to be aware of them, and their capability's, which enabled Sauron to recognize the three's influence (and thereby undo such influence) so long as the One was available to him.

[Amarinth]

i had the impression, aside from sauron forging into the one ring the secret which celebrimdor forged into the three, that sauron ensnared the three with a spell.

can't get the exact quote right now, but i seem to remember sauron taking up the newly-forged one ring and speaking the spell "one ring to rule them all...", and celebrimdor becoming aware of this, nay, even hearing him from afar, so as to hide the three thereafter.

hmmm, i'm not quite sure i got that exactly right, though...

[Amarinth]

wait i remember some more...it was the elf-lords wearing the three and not celebrimdor who heard or became aware of sauron speaking the words.

[Kuruharan]

thanx Kuruharan

You're quite welcome! Glad to help! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Mankáno]

Two things, Christopher Tolkien said that his father did make a mistake with Glorfindel's name and when he realized that he thought that Glorfindel should be allowed to be back to life, the reason being that elves didn't have repeated names.

The other is that I have read too that elves were only allowed to return to Valinor, however, to my knowledge that doesn't come from any Tolkien's manuscript.

It is probably an interpretation since Aman and Eressea were taken away from Arda and the Halls of Mandos are there that it was unlikely the elves would return to Middle earth.

However there is a complicated explanation in Morgoth's ring (the history of Middle Earth, volue 10).

It says that the elves, if they return to life, do so through reincarnation, that is, they are born again. In those cases, it isn't a new Fea (soul) but the old one, however, when young they have not memomories of their past life and they learn new things, but when they become adults, their past memoirs come back to them and they are enriched by both life experiences. It says nothing about them being forced to return only to Valinor. I think it must be understood as Aman and Tol Eressea and the explanation to that theory is that since all elves abandoned Middle Earth, and the vehicle to return is a new birth, that wouldn't happen within Arda. There are not documented cases of elves that returned to life in Middle Earth, except for Glorfindel which isn't explained.

The other two cases of elves returning to life are Finrod and Miriel but both in Aman.

About Finrod, it's said somewhere (I think the Silmarillion) that he is with his father Finarfin in Valinor.

About Miriel, there is a story in History of Middle Earth that says she was allowed to return but chose to stay with Vaire (Mandos' wife) being the only living elf allowed to enter Mandos' house.

In any case, this part of the mithology is confuse, apparently Tolkien changed his mind many times and the scripts are contradictory and not clear. As he died without finishing his work, his son had to make a decision of what he wanted, and the problem was that apparently Christopher Tolkien found manuscripts after the Silmarillion was published.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well I believe that someone having the knowledge and strength of Celebrimbor could have made new Rings had they wanted.

Suprising this hasn't been brought up really... it is said in Silm that each being in Arda is permitted one great work in their lives. The Silmarils were Feanor's great work. The stars were Varda's. The Three were Celembrimbor's.
Just as Feanor could not have remade the silmarils, Celembrimbor couldn't have forged the Three again; at least he couldn't have forged them to have the same strength as the originals. Had he attempted the feat, the rings he produced would probably have been Rings of Power (not Lesser Rings) but they wouldn't have been anywhere near as powerful as the Three.