a GREAT idea for a story

[Fingolas]

Thanks Maril,

I’ll take a look at your suggestions. They look like good ones. Martin and Cherryh seem like good bets. Although the title, “Cyteens”, does seem a little juvenile. I suppose this was written back when attaching “Cy” to everything connoted being on the cutting edge.

As an aside… I caught the tail end of a commercial on television the other day. It was for an upcoming show. Dinotopia. I seem to remember seeing these books somewhere along the way but I haven’t noticed them down at my local bookstore in recent trips. Of course the commercial featured a lot of special effects, (mostly CG), and it looked like it was well done, but it didn’t delve into the plot at all. I was wondering whether or not this series had any meat to it or is it just a depthless tale woven around the concept of humans and dinosaurs living together. Does anyone out there know anything about this series?

[Birdland]

I read Dinotopia, by James Gurney back in the 80s. If I remember rightly, an archaeologist and his son discover a lost island populated by humans and sentient dinosaurs, who live together in a kind of symbiotic society.

I remember little of the plot. Mostly it dealt with the society and how it worked, though it did end with a cliff-hanger of the father disappearing to the center of the earth.

The illustrations by Gurney are incredibly beautiful, and worth getting a good hardcover edition, if you decide you like it.

There are two books, with a third soon to be or already released.

Another lost book. (sigh) Being young and broke back in the 80s played heck on my book collection. "Must eat. Sell books!"

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Starbreeze]

How about David Gemmell's books? Has anyone read any of them? I personally feel that his books don't fall into the category of "cheap Tolkien wannabe" (sorry, I'm not going to let that one drop!) I feel that his work is another type of fantasy book altogether.
Nephredil, good luck with publishing your books. If you do publish it in English let me know the titles and I'll try and find a copy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Nevtalathiel]

Marileangorifurnimaluim, I would also recommend Ursula K. Le Guin, but I haven't read any of the others so I can't comment, holiday reading for after i finish my exams i think! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[JenFramp]

OK..refering back the Terry Brooks discussion...Tolkien definitley set the stage for fantasy novels am i right? I mean someone had to start it..I guess he sort of set precedence for that style of fantasy novels..I am not sure though where the ideas of elves and dwarves came from? Aren't they older than Tolkien? But Hobbits are entirely his creation, and hobbits are the most important part of his story..Has anyone else used hobbits in their stories?

I think it's okay to use Elves, Dwarves and such but it is NEVER okay to steal anyone's plotline. It's like stuffing messy chocolate in your mouth, not wiping your face and proclaiming that you didn't eat the chocolate. I almost bought a Terry Brooks book the other day, but my gut told me not to. Not that I'm against Terry Brooks.

Has anyone read Mary Brown's books?

Oandanel

[Nevtalathiel]

If you want to find out more about the roots of elves, there's some more stuff at ELVES AND WHAT OF THEM???, but it's a bit spread out!

[Olorin_TLA]

Robin Hobb - a great author! Very original, not fitting into the cliched fantasy formats.

She's 3 series of books out, the first 2 being tirlogies and the 3 one still ongoing.

The nbames of the first (I think [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) books in each group are "Assasin's Apprentice" "The Liveship Traders" and "The Tawny Man" - her writing is really amazing, really sucks you in, very powerful and emotional stuff. Highly recommended ot everyone, by me. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Lost One]

Guy Gavriel Kay is a possibility. His Fionavar series is the most 'Tolkienian', but not too heavily so. His later fantasies move into a sort of medieval or renaissance world that never existed.

[Diamond18]

I thought that Craig Clark article was very amusing (especially the part about Éowyn [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img])

Some more good fantasy to consider is Neil Gaiman, definitely not your run-of-the-mill-swords-and-sorcery-Tolkienish-copy-cat stuff. I've read Neverwhere, Stardust and American Gods. All are highly recommended (though, to give fair warning, Rated R for graphic violence and sexuality).

And then, The Sevenwaters Trilogy by Juliet Marillier: Daughter of the Forest, Son of Shadows and Child of the Prophecy. Though the idea of a trilogy seems to be overdone, they are very good books. Very little magic, actually. Excellent characters.

[miellien]

Has anybody else read the "Chronicles of Thomas Covenant" by Stephen J. Donaldson? Yes, there is a quest involving a trip under a mountain and wizard-like characters, but I think the ties to the "real world" set it apart.

Hey while we're at it lets bash WarCraft III and any other Tolkien-related things, oh wait better yet lets bash Tolkien because it wasn't his "original" idea in the first place! I've read the book and even though it is similar to Tolkien's work it's not the same. It's kinda like playing WarCraft III and having the races join forces to kill Archimonde (also similar to Sauron). And after that the undying Ner'zhul. And now its Ner'zhul inhabiting Arthas's body. What else can we bash?

There's so many plots that involve going after an very Evil person (or thing). It doesn't mean that the work is stolen. Similar is not the same as a copy!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I remember reading the Shannara books when I was a youngster (well, the first three at any rate). At the time I noticed how, shall we say, 'similar' they were to Tolkien (particularly The Sword of Shanara to LotR). I commented upon this to my friends, and was told, quite pointedly, "Well if you don't like it, don't read it!"

As I had already read LotR twice very recently, I was starved and ploughed through them all. Kind of like Methadone, I suppose. . .

I have also read the Covenant series (twice) and I recall enjoying them immensely. I have recently seen that Donaldson has begun another four-book series in which he is going to complete the Chronicles. I must admit to being a bit wary of this, but as Donaldson is one of the few truly original imitators of Tolkien, I can hope for the best.

Has anyone read Donaldson's other epic fantasy series The Mirror of Her Dreams? Again, I recall reading the two books of that (twice) and very much enjoying them.

Also liked the first series of books by David Eddings.

To bring this back to Tolkien: I wonder if I would have liked and/or read any of these books had it not been for Tolkien? So much of the experience of reading these was, for me, to bring back the enchantment of reading about Middle-earth. Is imitation really such a bad thing, when undertaken by someone who is a competent writer and who loves LotR the way I do? Worse, is writing an imitation any different from fanfic or RPGs?

[Imladris]

Worse, is writing an imitation any different from fanfic or RPGs?

This is not my opinion about imitiations such as Shannara but I suspect that the reason so many Tolkien fans are upset with the Shannara series is because the author is getting payed for it. We don't....alas. *cough*

My own thoughts are these: though the Shannara series are definitely Tolkien-esque, they were (I should say "it was" since I didn't finish reading the first book) definitely more....creepy, than LotR. That is the reason I put it down....actually. (I was young!)

As for imitation in general -- there are poets around who imitate other poets in homage...and, to me, there is nothing wrong with that as others have more than likely pointed out before me.

And the elves were similar as well... not only did they have the same characteristics, and live in a place almost identical to Lothlorien, but the four kindreds were NAMED IN TOLKIEN'S ELVISH: Eledhel (Star Elves), Moredhel (Dark elves), Glamredhel (Mad? Elves) and the Eldar.

I think that one of the things we have to remember is that Tolkien wrote his books as a myth. As such, they are turning into myth. Which means, I believe, you have free liscense to build off those myths, just like C.S Lewis "stole" the classic myth of Cupid and Psyche for his book Till We Have Faces.

Building off the foundations we are...yes....

Tolkien himself took a lot from Beowulf, etc.

[Lalwendë]

I wonder if I would have liked and/or read any of these books had it not been for Tolkien?

Good question. Once I had finished reading all my brother's Tolkien books, I nicked his Shannara books, too. Then I bought the Thomas Covenant books, which he in his turn pinched from me. Yet both of us came right back to Tolkien as the one writer we liked above all others. I think we were both so bereft after having finished Lord of the Rings, that we were looking for the same experience from other books, and found all others somehow wanting.

I've said elsewhere on the 'Downs that I don't seem to actually like fantasy fiction all that much. This statement is obviously not true, one look at my bookshelves would tell you otherwise, but I find that it is only a particular type of fantasy which I enjoy. However, I think that now, far removed from my first impressions of Tolkien, I may actually get much more enjoyment from some of those books which I found so 'unsatisfying' at the time. I often scan books for my boss (who uses special software to do his reading), and much of this is fantasy - I can't help but read some of it and find myself enjoying it.

I do believe I would never have picked up those books if it hadn't been for Tolkien. In a way, I've been looking for that same 'mind blowing read' for the past umpteen years, and in some cases, have almost found it, but I very much doubt I ever will.

But I do have an example of someone who arrived at fantasy from another angle. A good friend of mine, a big comic fan, reads just about any fantasy he can get his hands on - I'd say he consumes it, he reads so much - but, although I have never dared ask (I don't want to offend him if I am wrong!), I strongly suspect he has not read Lord of the Rings.

I don't think imitation is necessarily a bad thing. What is important to me is whether the book keeps me reading, and does it make enough of an impression to make me want to read it again. Much of the best fiction is in its own way derivative or draws on what has gone before. I'm currently reading Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, which pastiches early Victorian and Gothic fiction and I have to say, it's a damn good book, and despite utilising these elements from another 'school' of fiction, it's one of the most original books I've read in a long while.

[Lobelia]

I bought The Sword of Shanarra when it first came out, read a little of it and threw it across the room in disgust (well, no, I wasn't that physical, but I refused to read any more). It was deliberate. The book came out not too long after Tolkien died and people were wanting "more of the same". (That was, of course, well before the HOME books started to be published.) According to Tom Shippey, it was actually commissioned by the publishers. I suppose the series must have something to it if people are still buying it after all these years, but I just can't bring myself to read the novels. There are plenty of first-class fantasy novels out there that don't pinch someone else's plotlines.

[Orophin]

I havn't read any of the wheel of time series but I have read loads of Terry Brooks books and they just are not as good as anything as tolkien wrote. The Only fantasy book that can really even touch The Lord of the Rings in my opinion is The Once and Future King by TH White. Now that's good fantasy.

[Iaurhirwen]

After a few months long absense, I'm back and ready with input

I have sitting on my overly filled bookshelf one of Terry Brook's books, but have never read it, being that is was in the middle of the series (how I ended up with only book four I'll never know . . . . ) But from what I have read here, it does seem to be a very cheap rip-off. Having not read it, I really can't comment though.

Thankfully, there are fantasy books out there that are not Tokien rip-offs or even Tolkien-esk. To whomever mentioned His Dark Materials I firmly agree that that is also a very good series and is has no connection to JRRT, as far as I can remember. Of course, I think it is also classified as sci-fi, but the line between sci-fi and fantasy is so faint in some places you really can't tell.

I would also like to recommend another seiries that I really enjoy. It's by Susan Cooper and the seires is entitled The Dark is Rising. Though it does have an evil dark power attempting to rule the world, it is extremely hard not to find a book that doesn't have at least a snippet of that element. Also, she takes a lot from Arthurian legend, and weaves it through her stories. Though they are generally for younger readers, I would recommend them to everyone.

P.S. Watching ABC's Lost right now. I love getting my daily dose of Dom!

[Lobelia]

[
I would also like to recommend another seiries that I really enjoy. It's by Susan Cooper and the seires is entitled The Dark is Rising. Though it does have an evil dark power attempting to rule the world, it is extremely hard not to find a book that doesn't have at least a snippet of that element. Also, she takes a lot from Arthurian legend, and weaves it through her stories. Though they are generally for younger readers, I would recommend them to everyone.


The DARK IS RISING series is, indeed, excellent. I remember when it first came out in Australia, staff and students alike at my school were fighting over who got to read it. Not remotely like Tolkien, but the author knows a lot about her mythology and was really good at presenting the "mood" of Buckinghamshire, as Tolkien was at his own part of England.

Lost One, Guy Gavriel Kay is also wonderful, but his later novels are really about our world, though set in an alternative world with different names for people, places and events in our history. Again, not Tolkien in style, but good stuff in its own right.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I loved The Dark Is Rising series. They're fascinating because while having a lot of arthurian elements to them, the idea is original and it keeps you guessing and wondering what will happen next.

I read Sword of Shannara a long time ago, and was very, very disappointed with it. Not only was it a rip-off of LOTR, it wasn't even a GOOD rip-off. It's a mystery to me why his books seem to be everywhere and why people actually read them. It sort of makes sense if they were published shortly after JRRT's death when people were really wanting more, but it still doesn't explain why they seem so well-liked now. I once met a lady who was a HUGE fan of Terry Brooks' writing, and she couldn't see how similar Sword of Shannara was to LOTR. She said she didn't really think it was...And I just grunted and left it at that because she was my dad's friend and a nice person. If she had been someone I didn't like, I think I would have been much more assertive.

Another recommendation for those who want some interesting fantasy...
Ursula K. Le Guin has just come out with a new book, Gifts . It isn't connected in any way with her Earthsea novels...and it is a very interesting and beautiful read. It's about this world where family groups each have their own particular gift of power: Some can communicate with animals, others can heal, and still others can kill, completely destroy, or cause a wasting sickness. The story is about two young people, a boy and a girl, who reject what their society has become. It's really fascinating, and it made me think. I believe it is a book for younger audiences (I found it in the teen section of my library) but there is nothing that would make it less interesting for adults who don't mind reading about younger people. This one gets a thumbs up from me, and I would recommend it to just about anyone.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A few comments here, especially on "Shannara".
A comment above is rather accurate, The Sword of Shannara does read like
Middle-earth lite. I've read several of the series, and especially surprising is his
lack of attention to maps (only one small one is used repeatedly, and his elves
seem indistinguishable from men). As a summertime, seashore read it's probably
a passable form of idle reading, but that's it. Especially irritating is the Gandalf
character copy.

But for an hilarious read (and one written about the time of LOTR) try "The
Incomplete Enchanter" and its sequels, by L. Sprague De Camp. In it Chicago
psychologists get involved in the world of Norse mythology and Spenser's
The Fairy Queen.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Fingolas

I’ve just started reading this book and here is what has happened so far. It’s really, really great.

Our diminutive hero is living a quiet life in a bucolic setting. He and those around him are unconcerned with the affairs of the larger world outside of their sheltered and remote land.
One day a mysterious and imposing figure shows up and informs our hero that his simple life is about to be turned upside down. It seems an immensely evil “Dark Lord” in a far off land is searching for him, and means to pound the snot out of him and then kill him when he finds him. It seems that this Evil Lord is massing an enormous army, and is intent on taking over the known world and our little buddy is somehow tied up in all of this. The mysterious but obviously wise stranger tells our hero and his loyal sidekick that they must leave their little town and RUN!!! He makes plans to meet them later, lets them know that he will send a friend to look after them, and then heads off to parts unknown.
Our hero and his loyal sidekick aren’t quite sure what to make of all this until a dark and terrifying beastie shows up looking for them, at which point they decide to blow town and head for the rendezvous point. They pick up an extra friend along the way and head out. All the while being hunted by the evil creatures sent out by the Dark Lord. Many trials and travails are endured including rotten weather, narrow escapes, getting lost, and nearly getting caught by the Dark Lords evil minions. At one point a mean old tree nearly eats one of the party before he is rescued. At last they arrive at the rendezvous nearly done in. They spend a few days being nursed back to health, and then a conference is held to determine what is to be done about this pesky Dark Lord. It is decided that a group composed of our hero and his faithful sidekick, Men, Elves, Dwarves, and the Wise and Mysterious figure will go on a quest. They intend on marching right into the Dark Ones neighborhood and giving him the business.

This is as far as I’ve read so far. I can’t wait to see what happens next.

Why hasn’t anyone thought of this storyline before?

The Sword of Shannara is soooo original.
[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

looks like someone was trying too hard to be Tolkien... That's ok, i've read a book that sounded almost exactly like Ursula K. Le Guin's A Wizard of EarthSea... turns out the author came from the same city as her. Very weird.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Azaelia of Willowbottom

I loved The Dark Is Rising series. They're fascinating because while having a lot of arthurian elements to them, the idea is original and it keeps you guessing and wondering what will happen next.

I read Sword of Shannara a long time ago, and was very, very disappointed with it. Not only was it a rip-off of LOTR, it wasn't even a GOOD rip-off. It's a mystery to me why his books seem to be everywhere and why people actually read them. It sort of makes sense if they were published shortly after JRRT's death when people were really wanting more, but it still doesn't explain why they seem so well-liked now. I once met a lady who was a HUGE fan of Terry Brooks' writing, and she couldn't see how similar Sword of Shannara was to LOTR. She said she didn't really think it was...And I just grunted and left it at that because she was my dad's friend and a nice person. If she had been someone I didn't like, I think I would have been much more assertive.

Another recommendation for those who want some interesting fantasy...
Ursula K. Le Guin has just come out with a new book, Gifts . It isn't connected in any way with her Earthsea novels...and it is a very interesting and beautiful read. It's about this world where family groups each have their own particular gift of power: Some can communicate with animals, others can heal, and still others can kill, completely destroy, or cause a wasting sickness. The story is about two young people, a boy and a girl, who reject what their society has become. It's really fascinating, and it made me think. I believe it is a book for younger audiences (I found it in the teen section of my library) but there is nothing that would make it less interesting for adults who don't mind reading about younger people. This one gets a thumbs up from me, and I would recommend it to just about anyone.

Awsome! I have to read it now! i loved the first three earthsea books... the forth Tehanu: The Last Book of Earthsea was very,very,VERY drawn out. I was expecting something to happen with the dragons- turned- into- people folks and Ged or Ogion. But, so much for that. My favortie was the Farthest Shore... i loved the chapter about the Children of the Sea.