Why bring the women and children? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Bandobras Took · 10-22-2004, 01:58 PM

Why did thaodin bring the woman and kids to helms deep? It would only put them in danger! why did they not just stay there? He knew the Uruks would be going to helms deep and not Edoras!*Grrr* I don't get this guy!

Boromir88 · 10-22-2004, 02:14 PM

Actually it depends upon Movie Theoden, and Book Theoden. Book Theoden knew there was fighting at Helm's Deep, so he gathered his men and went to Helm's Deep, he sent the Women and Children of Edoras to Dunharrow. But, there were still women and children hiding in the caves when Theoden and company got to Helm's Deep (as we get to hear of Gimli's tale of fighting in Aglarond).

Movie Theoden, however, if you remember he was going to Helm's Deep to avoid fighting. As Grima says in the movie, "Theoden will expect an attack on the city, he will retreat to Helm's Deep." So Movie Theoden, thinks Edoras is going to be attacked, so he evacuates the whole city and takes them to Helm's Deep, not anticipating an attack.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-22-2004, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So Movie Theoden, thinks Edoras is going to be attacked, so he evacuates the whole city and takes them to Helm's Deep, not inticipating an attack.

It is also easier to defend ...

... as long as your enemy doesn't have 10,000 Orcs and gunpowder.

Both Helm's Deep and Dunharrow were traditional refuges for the people of Rohan in times of war.

Nimrodel_9 · 10-23-2004, 04:38 PM

In the Movie: If Theoden were to leave the woman and children at Edoras by themselves, they would be attacked and killed or captured. Leaving them would be complete disaster.

Orophin · 12-23-2004, 06:40 PM

If you are talking about the movie Theoden I think that he was afraid to leave all of the women and children in a place that was not easily defendable even if the men were there. They were safer at helm deep. Even though they were almost killed. In one way it doies seem like ot is bringing them closer ot danger.

Turin · 12-24-2004, 03:50 AM

It is yet another example of poor logical thinking by the writers- not thought out properly.

There are NO excuses!

12-24-2004, 03:55 AM

In the movie, Theoden realises that now Saruman has lost control of him, he will attack. Their fighting past has proved that Helm's Deep has a) places to hide for the women and children, and b) a better defence rate than Edoras (even though it's on a huge hill, it's made of straw, essentially.. easily burnt down, I should wonder) So logic dictates that they go to Helm's Deep. And they have to take the innocents with them.. again, it's common sense. There's places to hide, plus you wouldn't exactly leave them on their own, defenceless, in an arsonist's dream (Edoras), would you?
And ow I'm just reiterating what ^^^ said perfectly well..

Boromir88 · 12-24-2004, 09:19 AM

The movies treated Helm's Deep as a retreat. So if Theoden says he's retreating to Helm's Deep (expecting an attack on Edoras) there is no sense in leaving the women in Edoras. Or even taking the women to Dunharrow, because people would wonder why Theoden isn't going to Dunharrow with them. This way, the women, children, and soldiers, expecting Edoras to be attacked, retreat to Helm's Deep.

Helm's Deep was also made as a retreat in the books. Remember, the women and children there too? Also, Erkenbrand sent back 1,000 soldiers, waiting for the attack. Only thing is, Theoden knew he was going to war, so that's why he sends the women and children from Edoras to Dunharrow.

The thing that doesn't make sense to me, is Helm's Deep is closer to Isengard then Edoras. So if Theoden was trying to retreat from a fight (which he was expecting Edoras to fall under attack), why go even closer to the enemy? That's the thing I can't understand, unless Theoden thought that Saruman would not have enough to lay siege to Helm's Deep.

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-24-2004, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turin

It is yet another example of poor logical thinking by the writers- not thought out properly.

Given the perfectly logical explanations here, please elaborate.

Legolas · 12-25-2004, 10:06 AM

Quote:

It is yet another example of poor logical thinking by the writers- not thought out properly.

Quote:

why did they not just stay there? He knew the Uruks would be going to helms deep and not Edoras!*Grrr* I don't get this guy!

The Uruks went there because they knew Theoden was fleeing to Helm's Deep. Had Theoden (or his people) not left Edoras, the Uruks would have gone to Edoras instead, plundering, sabotaging, and burning the entire town just like they had done in other settlements in Rohan. Edoras would've been especially susceptible to such an attack...they could've come at it from all sides, and it would be difficult to defend.

It would have been suicide for anyone to stay in Edoras.

Linnahiril Tinnufinwen · 01-05-2005, 03:02 PM

In response to Boromir's question of why Theoden would move his people closer to Isengard, I believe that Theoden, at least in the movie, was unaware that the enemy knew he was going to Helm's Deep, or that they even knew it exsisted. I know that it is perhaps silly on Theoden's part to think that the enemy was so oblivious, but this is the impression that I got from the movie. Theoden takes his people from Edoras and transports them to Helm's Deep because he was under the impression that Sauruman would attack Edoras, and not know anything about Helm's Deep at all. The Orc armies would arrive at Edoras, and the Rohirrim would be gone, and Sauruman would not know where they had gone to.

10-22-2004, 01:58 PM	#1
Bandobras Took Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Green Dragon Inn Posts: 22	Why bring the women and children? Why did thaodin bring the woman and kids to helms deep? It would only put them in danger! why did they not just stay there? He knew the Uruks would be going to helms deep and not Edoras!Grrr I don't get this guy!

10-22-2004, 02:14 PM	#2
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,559	Actually it depends upon Movie Theoden, and Book Theoden. Book Theoden knew there was fighting at Helm's Deep, so he gathered his men and went to Helm's Deep, he sent the Women and Children of Edoras to Dunharrow. But, there were still women and children hiding in the caves when Theoden and company got to Helm's Deep (as we get to hear of Gimli's tale of fighting in Aglarond). Movie Theoden, however, if you remember he was going to Helm's Deep to avoid fighting. As Grima says in the movie, "Theoden will expect an attack on the city, he will retreat to Helm's Deep." So Movie Theoden, thinks Edoras is going to be attacked, so he evacuates the whole city and takes them to Helm's Deep, not anticipating an attack. Last edited by Boromir88; 10-22-2004 at 07:46 PM.

10-23-2004, 04:38 PM	#4
Nimrodel_9 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Utah Posts: 786	In the Movie: If Theoden were to leave the woman and children at Edoras by themselves, they would be attacked and killed or captured. Leaving them would be complete disaster. __________________ .:A friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart:.

12-23-2004, 06:40 PM	#5
Orophin Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lothlorien Posts: 48	If you are talking about the movie Theoden I think that he was afraid to leave all of the women and children in a place that was not easily defendable even if the men were there. They were safer at helm deep. Even though they were almost killed. In one way it doies seem like ot is bringing them closer ot danger. __________________ Yrch!

12-24-2004, 03:50 AM	#6
Turin Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Birmingham, England Posts: 37	It is yet another example of poor logical thinking by the writers- not thought out properly. There are NO excuses! __________________ Master of Doom!!!

12-24-2004, 03:55 AM	#7
Legoli Guest Posts: n/a	In the movie, Theoden realises that now Saruman has lost control of him, he will attack. Their fighting past has proved that Helm's Deep has a) places to hide for the women and children, and b) a better defence rate than Edoras (even though it's on a huge hill, it's made of straw, essentially.. easily burnt down, I should wonder) So logic dictates that they go to Helm's Deep. And they have to take the innocents with them.. again, it's common sense. There's places to hide, plus you wouldn't exactly leave them on their own, defenceless, in an arsonist's dream (Edoras), would you? And ow I'm just reiterating what ^^^ said perfectly well..

12-24-2004, 09:19 AM	#8
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,559	The movies treated Helm's Deep as a retreat. So if Theoden says he's retreating to Helm's Deep (expecting an attack on Edoras) there is no sense in leaving the women in Edoras. Or even taking the women to Dunharrow, because people would wonder why Theoden isn't going to Dunharrow with them. This way, the women, children, and soldiers, expecting Edoras to be attacked, retreat to Helm's Deep. Helm's Deep was also made as a retreat in the books. Remember, the women and children there too? Also, Erkenbrand sent back 1,000 soldiers, waiting for the attack. Only thing is, Theoden knew he was going to war, so that's why he sends the women and children from Edoras to Dunharrow. The thing that doesn't make sense to me, is Helm's Deep is closer to Isengard then Edoras. So if Theoden was trying to retreat from a fight (which he was expecting Edoras to fall under attack), why go even closer to the enemy? That's the thing I can't understand, unless Theoden thought that Saruman would not have enough to lay siege to Helm's Deep.

01-05-2005, 03:02 PM	#11
Linnahiril Tinnufinwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: California Posts: 77	In response to Boromir's question of why Theoden would move his people closer to Isengard, I believe that Theoden, at least in the movie, was unaware that the enemy knew he was going to Helm's Deep, or that they even knew it exsisted. I know that it is perhaps silly on Theoden's part to think that the enemy was so oblivious, but this is the impression that I got from the movie. Theoden takes his people from Edoras and transports them to Helm's Deep because he was under the impression that Sauruman would attack Edoras, and not know anything about Helm's Deep at all. The Orc armies would arrive at Edoras, and the Rohirrim would be gone, and Sauruman would not know where they had gone to. __________________ The world is a great book, of which they who never stir from home read only a page Last edited by Linnahiril Tinnufinwen; 01-05-2005 at 03:11 PM.