The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-30-2004, 05:04 AM   #1
Gothmog
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gothmog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Posts: 443
Gothmog has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gothmog
Ecthelion vs 100 trolls???

As always, this question might be answered in some other thread, but I haven't found it...

I've heard a rumour about a fight between Ecthelion and 100 trolls where Ecthelion slew them all. I want to know: is this true? And if it is, when did that happen? were can one read about this event?

I hope you can clear this up and and help me erase the questionmarks...
Thanks for your help!
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches.
Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom
~Lurker...
Gothmog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2004, 11:03 AM   #2
Hookbill the Goomba
Alive without breath
 
Hookbill the Goomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 6,153
Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Tolkien

I am sorry to say, Gothmog, but I think you have been deceived, for Ecthelion 1st was the steward of Gondor who rebuilt the tower in Minas Tirith.

Quote:
The seventeenth Ruling Steward of Gondor, who succeeded his father Orodreth to the Stewardship. He is most famous for rebuilding the White Tower that surmounted the city of Minas Tirith, which was afterwards known as the Tower of Ecthelion. He ruled in Gondor for just thirteen years, and was succeeded by his son Egalmoth.
The encyclopaedia of Arda, entry on Ecthelion I "The Steward who rebuilt Minas Tirith’s White Tower"
No other account is given of his actions.

Ecthelion II on the other hand was;

Quote:
the son of Steward Turgon, and was a wise and foresightful Man. He put his efforts into strengthening his realm against the approaching danger of Sauron, who had openly revealed himself in the last years of Turgon's Stewardship. He was aided in this work by Gandalf, and by a mysterious stranger named 'Thorongil', who was later known to be none other than Aragorn. Ecthelion was succeeded as Steward by his son Denethor II, who ruled Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring.
There is nothing about slaying Trolls... not 100 of them anyway.
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once.
THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...
Hookbill the Goomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2004, 11:43 AM   #3
NightKnight
Lost among the Stars
 
NightKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden)
Posts: 2,696
NightKnight has just left Hobbiton.
Hookbill, you seem to have forgotten an Ecthelion, the one in Gondolin. I haven't heard anything about him fighting trolls, so if any such material exists it must be in HoME. In BoLT however, it is said that Ecthelion and his men killed more orcs in a single attack than all other elves in all other wars altogether, and there might very well have been some trolls there.
__________________
There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.
NightKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2004, 01:41 PM   #4
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Ecthelion of the Fountain was the slayer of Gothmog
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2004, 01:48 PM   #5
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Auspicious Wraith
 
Eomer of the Rohirrim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,988
Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Eomer of the Rohirrim is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Gothmog , the rumour wasn't quite that Ecthelion was in a fight with 100 trolls and killed them all. Rather, in a single battle (might have been the fall of Gondolin) he killed 100.

I believe the reference is in HoME (if it exists at all, that is). It may not be true.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond
Eomer of the Rohirrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2004, 02:35 AM   #6
Gothmog
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gothmog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Posts: 443
Gothmog has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gothmog
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, Hookbill the Goomba. I meant Ecthelion the elf, Ecthelion of the Fountain from Gondolin.

When was the attack when Ecthelion and his men "killed more orcs in a single attack than all other elves in all other wars altogether"? At the attack of Gondolin?

Quote:
Ecthelion of the Fountain was the slayer of Gothmog
Yes I know drigel, but as you can see: I'm back I'm still a little angry with him though...
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches.
Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom
~Lurker...
Gothmog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2004, 08:30 PM   #7
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Yep, at the battle for Gondolin. A grand day that (with the exception of the whole death of loads of Elves thing...:'() - many new records in slayage set. For instance, Balrogs were practically invincible prior to this, but Ecthelion and all the other brave Elves soon showed that they could be killed...en masse.

Hooray for Elves!!!
__________________
"For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2004, 03:45 AM   #8
NightKnight
Lost among the Stars
 
NightKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden)
Posts: 2,696
NightKnight has just left Hobbiton.
Yes, it's in BoLT 2. The Fall of Gondolin is a really great story.
__________________
There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.
NightKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2004, 08:06 AM   #9
Gothmog
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gothmog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Posts: 443
Gothmog has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gothmog
Thanks for all your help. Hasn't read BoLT yet, there's not enough time But soon... I keep on going through The Hobbit, LoTR, Sil and Tales of the ME (is it called like that in english?? I've got the swedish version) instead

Quote:
For instance, Balrogs were practically invincible prior to this, but Ecthelion and all the other brave Elves soon showed that they could be killed...en masse.
Excuse me for my neverending questioning (and now I go off-topic, IN MY OWN TOPIC!!! ) Was there more than 2 Balrogs killed at the assault of Gondolin? Did anyone else then Ecthelion and Glorfindel manage to slay one?

Once again, thank you!
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches.
Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom
~Lurker...
Gothmog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2004, 08:19 AM   #10
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
Yep, quite a few were killed. BUT: when Tolkien wrote this, Balrogs were different from the one in LotR, because they weren't as powerful, as they weren't Maia. Later Tolkein said that there would be only 3 or 7, at most, Balrogs, becuase if you had armies of them, as there were in BoLT, and they were as powerful as the Balrog of Moria, then they would taken over the world.
__________________
"For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2004, 08:25 AM   #11
Lord of Angmar
Tyrannus Incorporalis
 
Lord of Angmar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: the North
Posts: 833
Lord of Angmar has just left Hobbiton.
Ecthelion didn't kill 100 trolls, though he did kill more than his share of Balrogs and orcs. You may be thinking of Hurin, who supposedly killed 70 trolls at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (although whether or not all 70 of the creatures he slew were trolls is highly debatable).
__________________
...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.
Lord of Angmar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 10:04 AM   #12
Gothmog
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gothmog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Posts: 443
Gothmog has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gothmog
No, I wasn't thinking of Hurin. Actually this question popped up in my head when I was reading an other thread, the one about the strength of a troll (Just how hard is it to kill a Troll?). Somebody wrote something about Ecthelion killing 100 trolls, but they weren't sure there either...

Olorin, are you sure they wasn't as powerful as the "Moria-Balrog"? And maybe there wasn't armies but if you read Sil. you get the impression that they were more than 3...maybe even more than 7.

Regarding their strength: in the beginning of sil. (Valaquenta) Tolkien writes (translated from swedish, please ignore my errors)
Quote:
And terrible amongst these deamons were valaraukar, the scourge of fire which in Middle-Earth were called Balrogs, deamons of fear
(isn't deamons of might???)
It's also said that they joined Melkor before Arda was created. I don't think the Moria-Balrog was different or more powerful than the others, but the warriors were more powerful at the time of tha battle of Gondolin.
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches.
Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom
~Lurker...
Gothmog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2004, 10:19 AM   #13
Olorin_TLA
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor.
Posts: 420
Olorin_TLA has just left Hobbiton.
It makes sense to assume Durin's Bane was as powerful as other Balrogs; when Tolkien was revising the Silmarillion after writing LotR, he crossed out a mention ottwo of their being hosts of Balrogs, and wrote that there shouldn't be assumed to be more than 3 or 7. Also, in his writings about Glorfindel, one of the last things he wrote, he crossed out that he killed a Balrog and replaced it with "Demon", and contiuned to refer to it as a Demon and not a Balrog, anohter indication that the Balrogs had become much more powerful and rare in the post-LotR Silmarillion.
__________________
"For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!"

ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"
Olorin_TLA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2004, 06:40 AM   #14
Gothmog
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gothmog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Posts: 443
Gothmog has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gothmog
So it's really a question of what version you want to believe in: the original or the post-LotR... I stick with the version where Glorfindel killed a BALROG and no lesser demon

Otherwise, it must have been a powerful demon. It is said in Sil. that many songs were wrote about Glorfindel's fight with the-whatever-it-was and to make a fight that important, you need two great warriors
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches.
Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom
~Lurker...
Gothmog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2004, 06:58 AM   #15
Son of Númenor
A Shade of Westernesse
 
Son of Númenor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The last wave over Atalantë
Posts: 519
Son of Númenor has just left Hobbiton.
The Eye Wingin' It

I can't think of much else new to add to this debate, so I will provide you with the added insight of a few respected Barrow-downers. Heren-Istarion's post #33, in particular, helped me to understand the many facets of the general Balrog debate in its entirety. It certainly seems to be one of the more oft-contradictory and open-ended discussions contained in Tolkien's works.
__________________
"This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

Last edited by Son of Númenor; 05-08-2004 at 07:02 AM.
Son of Númenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2004, 01:28 AM   #16
NightKnight
Lost among the Stars
 
NightKnight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden)
Posts: 2,696
NightKnight has just left Hobbiton.
Gothmog, "Tales of the ME" is called UT, or Unfinished Tales, in English.
__________________
There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.
NightKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2004, 07:33 AM   #17
Gothmog
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Gothmog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Where I lay my head is home
Posts: 443
Gothmog has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Gothmog
Yeah, thanks NightKnight, I remembered that a few days ago... thought of editing my post, but it slipped my mind...Thanks anyway, I really I had all the books in the english version. As it is now, I've only got The Hobbit, LoTR and Sil. in english, so I have some problems quoting UT...

Speaking of troubles quoting, this is (I think) the correct quote from Valaquenta, not the gothmog-translation seen above (didn't have my eng. Sil. with me when posting that)

Quote:
Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
__________________
Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches.
Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch?

He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom
~Lurker...
Gothmog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:44 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.