The Grey Havens

[TheLostPilgrim]

A question:
Bilbo, Frodo, Gimli, Gandalf, Legolas and Sam pass over to the Grey Havens, right? What exactly are the Grey Havens? What is the nature of the lad? I'm VERY new to LOTR so I'm a little clueless about some of this stuff. Also, would going to the Grey Havens or "Undying Lands" mean that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli have eternal life? What about Legolas, Galadriel and the other Elves who went? Or Gandalf--Would he still have retained physical form and remained "Gandalf" or would he have returned to being Olorin, the Maia spirit? I would think such spirits are eternal, right? And even as Olorin, Gandalf would have his own personality and identity?

And lastly, why were the Elves fading? Why were so many leaving Middle Earth? And did any Elves remain in ME at least into the Fourth Age and beyond?

[Inziladun]

Welcome, TheLostPilgrim!

You bring a lot of good questions, let's see if I can avoid being too confusing.

The Grey Havens were merely a harbour maintained by Círdan and the Elves with him as a point of departure for Elves in Middle-earth to return to the Undying Lands.
The Havens themselves were really nothing special, and they would have been accessible to anyone. They were guarded by the Elves though, so unauthorised entry was not allowed.

As for the Blessed Realm itself, it seems clear that mortals going there by some grace did not acquire immortality. I don't know if you've read The Silmarillion, but there it is said that the life-potential of the "speaking peoples" of the world was the sole province of the One who'd made them, and could not be permanently altered by any of his other creations without his approval. Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would, at the end of their natural lifespan, die.
The immortals like Elrond and Galadriel, would fulfill their own potential as Elves, living as long as the world itself survived.

Olórin was, for all intents and purposes, Gandalf in personality and bearing. Since the Maia were capable of altering their physical forms at will, I see no reason why he could not have appeared to the Hobbits and Gimli in the "Gandalf" form as long as they lived. He was indeed "eternal", at least as far as he was an "angel", a created being of a higher order than Elves, Men, or Dwarves.

The issue of the Elves is bit complex. They had to leave Middle-earth to make way for the Dominion of Men, an event in the plan of the One from earliest creation. Also, since they were immortal, they could never truly be content in mortal lands, at least not forever. Witness the way in which Legolas, born and raised in the Old Forest far from the Sea, became obsessed with sailing after he encountered it in person.
The Elves weren't forced to leave, though it was made clear to them that if they remained in ME they would ultimately fade to the point of a mean existence in caves and hidden places, forgetting their own natures over time. If any did stay beyond their chance to sail West, that would have to have been their fate.

[TheLostPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Welcome, TheLostPilgrim!

You bring a lot of good questions, let's see if I can avoid being too confusing.

The Grey Havens were merely a harbour maintained by Círdan and the Elves with him as a point of departure for Elves in Middle-earth to return to the Undying Lands.
The Havens themselves were really nothing special, and they would have been accessible to anyone. They were guarded by the Elves though, so unauthorised entry was not allowed.

As for the Blessed Realm itself, it seems clear that mortals going there by some grace did not acquire immortality. I don't know if you've read The Silmarillion, but there it is said that the life-potential of the "speaking peoples" of the world was the sole province of the One who'd made them, and could not be permanently altered by any of his other creations without his approval. Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would, at the end of their natural lifespan, die.
The immortals like Elrond and Galadriel, would fulfill their own potential as Elves, living as long as the world itself survived.

Olórin was, for all intents and purposes, Gandalf in personality and bearing. Since the Maia were capable of altering their physical forms at will, I see no reason why he could not have appeared to the Hobbits and Gimli in the "Gandalf" form as long as they lived. He was indeed "eternal", at least as far as he was an "angel", a created being of a higher order than Elves, Men, or Dwarves.

The issue of the Elves is bit complex. They had to leave Middle-earth to make way for the Dominion of Men, an event in the plan of the One from earliest creation. Also, since they were immortal, they could never truly be content in mortal lands, at least not forever. Witness the way in which Legolas, born and raised in the Old Forest far from the Sea, became obsessed with sailing after he encountered it in person.
The Elves weren't forced to leave, though it was made clear to them that if they remained in ME they would ultimately fade to the point of a mean existence in caves and hidden places, forgetting their own natures over time. If any did stay beyond their chance to sail West, that would have to have been their fate.

Thank you for answering my questions...As to yours, I have never read The Silmarillion. I should though.
The fate of the Elves sounds rather cruel...That if they stayed they'd forget their own natures and be relegated to caves and hidden places. They were the most beautiful of ME's peoples, and seemingly the wisest and purest in nature.
However, you make it sound like if they did go to the Undying Lands they would retain the full beauty and glory of their nature...Am I correct in reading it that way?

I feel sort of sad that Frodo and the other non-immortal members of the Fellowship could not be granted eternal life...I would think that would be a just reward for their troubles, sorrows and sacrifices in helping to save Middle Earth. Knowing that Gandalf would continue to exist forever is comforting, though (he is, next to Bilbo, my favorite character in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings)

Which leads me to another question: What happens to regular spirits (as in the spirit of a Hobbit or a Dwarf, etc) when they die? I know Saruman's spirit was left to wander Middle Earth as a powerless shade forever, I suppose as punishment for his continued treachery and malice.

But what of lesser spirits, where do they go when the physical body dies in Tolkien's cosmology? And what about Smeagol? I wonder if his poor soul ever found peace....

[Galadriel55]

I second Inzil's welcome. Have a pleasant stay at the Downs, TheLostPilgrim!

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Which leads me to another question: What happens to regular spirits (as in the spirit of a Hobbit or a Dwarf, etc) when they die? I know Saruman's spirit was left to wander Middle Earth as a powerless shade forever, I suppose as punishment for his continued treachery and malice.

But what of lesser spirits, where do they go when the physical body dies in Tolkien's cosmology? And what about Smeagol? I wonder if his poor soul ever found peace....

The spirits, or fear (singular fea) of the Elves are bound to the world. They may not leave it. After death they are summoned to a place called Mandos in the Undying Lands, where, after some time, most of them are allowed to reincarnate. Some of them don't heed the call, though, and I believe their spirits wander aimlessly around Middle Earth (but I might be mistaken with this point).

Men are not bound to the world. Their fear leave it upon death to go to the One. Mortality is a gift to them from him - the lves don't get to leave the world, even when they get tired.

I believe there was some discussion on a different thread about what exactly happened to Saruman's fea. There were many arguments, but one thing in common was that he was not allowed to return to the Undying Lands. Gandalf was the opposite - when he died on Zirakzigil his fea went to Valinor (the Undying Lands), and was sent back to finish his mission.


I hope this answered some of your questions without making your head hurt. It must sound very confusing. I really suggest reading The Silmarillion. It contains many answers to your questions, as well as much history behind LOTR - the legendary Feanor's story, for one, and Gondolin for another, as well as many others.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

The fate of the Elves sounds rather cruel...That if they stayed they'd forget their own natures and be relegated to caves and hidden places. They were the most beautiful of ME's peoples, and seemingly the wisest and purest in nature.

It might seem a bit cruel, but then again it wasn't as if they had no choice and were doomed to that fate regardless.

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

However, you make it sound like if they did go to the Undying Lands they would retain the full beauty and glory of their nature...Am I correct in reading it that way?

Oh yes. In the Blessed Realm they would keep all their gifts and knowledge.

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

I feel sort of sad that Frodo and the other non-immortal members of the Fellowship could not be granted eternal life...I would think that would be a just reward for their troubles, sorrows and sacrifices in helping to save Middle Earth.

Merely being allowed as mortals to travel to an immortal place was a tremendous reward, and something, as far as I know, that was not given to any other "outsiders" at any time before or after.

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Which leads me to another question: What happens to regular spirits (as in the spirit of a Hobbit or a Dwarf, etc) when they die? I know Saruman's spirit was left to wander Middle Earth as a powerless shade forever, I suppose as punishment for his continued treachery and malice.

The fate of the spirits or souls of the mortals is an open question. Of Men (and Hobbits) there is no clue. The Dwarves believed that their own spirits remained in the world and were gathered by their maker, Aulë the Vala, and sent to Mandos, the location in the Blessed realm to which the spirits of slain Elves returned also. No definitive answer is given as to whether that was true, though.

Saruman was a special case. He was not mortal, but an immortal "angel" of the same order as Gandalf. He was indeed exiled as a punishment for his deeds in Middle-earth, though ultimately I think he would have been recalled to the Undying Lands to "face the music" , so to speak.

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

But what of lesser spirits, where do they go when the physical body dies in Tolkien's cosmology? And what about Smeagol? I wonder if his poor soul ever found peace....

Like I said, that's just not made clear. Even the Elves who sat at the feet of the Valar in the Blessed Realm didn't have the answer for that one.

x/d with G55

[Kath]

Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would, at the end of their natural lifespan, die.

Which rather begs the question ... why go? For Frodo the answer is clear, less so for the others.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kath

Which rather begs the question ... why go? For Frodo the answer is clear, less so for the others.

Well, Bilbo was the one in Middle earth most loved by Frodo, and as the Professor noted in Letter 246, he was also a Ring-bearer in need of healing similar to Frodo.

I think Sam went because of his devotion to Frodo, maybe to erase any traces of evil left by the Ring on him, and a desire to be in the most "Elvish" place in the world when he died.

And Gimli? Friendship with Legolas, and a desire to see Galadriel again.

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

A question: What exactly are the Grey Havens?

I'd add that the elven Kingdom of Lindon was one of the last major nations of elves, of which the Grey Havens was just a port city. At the end of the 2nd Age, Gil Galad's armies were comparable in size to Elindil's, the armies of Elves and Men in that conflict were roughly equal.

Still, towards the middle of the Third Age, the Witch King's wars and the following plague messed up the north west. By the end of the Third Age what had been well developed well populated civilized areas were but a shadow of what they once were. Most of the elves had departed West.

[narfforc]

'The Doom of the World,' they said, 'One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares you came indeed to Aman, the Blessed Realm, little would it profit you. For it is not the land of Manwe that make it's people deathless, but the Deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land; and there you would wither and grow weary the sooner, as moths in a light too strong and steadfast.'

This was the warning given to the The Numenoreans , I have always wondered how this statement affects Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli, and I believe it is the reason they could only go as far as Tol Eressea.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by narfforc

(...) This was the warning given to the The Numenoreans , I have always wondered how this statement affects Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli, and I believe it is the reason they could only go as far as Tol Eressea.

If you mean the 'grow weary statement' Tolkien explained this in the text Aman in Morgoth's Ring: very basically the idea was that Men would not actually wither and grow weary the sooner (the length of their lives could not be altered by the Valar), but would only seem to -- so, Men who desired the limited immortality of the Elves (as certain Numenoreans did) would rather feel like short-lived creatures in Aman! even living their whole lives there -- compared to the Elves, Men already did feel short-lived, but in Aman they would be comparing themselves to the Elves, the land they lived in, and other creatures there.


The weariness basically hails from the unfulfilled desire to become 'immortal', which was not the purpose of Bilbo, Frodo, or Gimli's sojourn to Aman, of course.

[narfforc]

Thanks for that Galin I must remind myself to read that again and it does fit in somewhat with Tolkien's Letter 325 which reads thus......As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time-whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

[Galin]

Of course some might interpret the text Aman differently, but here is part of why I say Men will only seem to wither more swiftly...

'If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World, and therein the Eldar had health and lasting joy, what shall we say of Men? No Man has ever set foot in Aman, or at least none has ever returned thence; for the Valar forbade it. Why so? To the Númenóreans they said they did so because Eru had forbidden them to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would 'wither even as a moth in a flame too bright.'

'Beyond these words we can but go in guess. Yet we may consider the matter so. The Valar were not only by Eru forbidden the attempt, they could not alter the nature, or 'doom' of Eru, of any of the Children, in which was included the speed of their growth (relative to the whole life of Arda) and the length of their life-span. Even the Eldar in that respect remained unchanged. Let us suppose then that the Valar had also admitted to Aman some of the Atani, and (so that we may consider a whole life of a Man in such a state) that 'mortal' children were there born, as were children of the Eldar. Then, even though in Aman, a mortal child would still grow to maturity in some twenty years of the Sun, and the natural span of its life, the period of cohesion of hroa and fea, would be no more than, say, 100 years. Not much more, even though (...)'

'But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy...'

JRRT, Aman and Mortal Men

As I say, we appear to have a comparative 'swiftness' here, not an actual change in span, although reading the whole text is best of course -- and here 1 Valian Year = 144 Sun Years, which explains the statement that a Man's whole life would last little more than 'one half-year' -- that is, little more than one half of a Valian Year.

[Inziladun]

You know, after reading the last few posts, it seems all the more appropriate that the Elves who remained in Middle-earth were destined to "fade" over time.

If Men couldn't have it both ways, going back and forth from the mortal to the immortal, as explained by the Eldar of Eressëa to the Númenóreans, why should the Elves have that privilege? The Eldar belonged in the Blessed Realm and Men belonged in Middle-earth.

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

Bilbo, Frodo, Gimli, Gandalf, Legolas and Sam pass over to the Grey Havens, right? What exactly are the Grey Havens? What is the nature of the lad? I'm VERY new to LOTR so I'm a little clueless about some of this stuff. Also, would going to the Grey Havens or "Undying Lands" mean that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli have eternal life?

The Grey Havens are the harbors on the northwestern coast of Middle-earth from which elves were departing west to Aman in the Third Age.

Tolkien addressed the matter of the mortals reaching Aman in a few of his collected letters, each explaining that the ringbearers (and Gimli) found peace there, but eventually passed away, just as all mortals had to.

"But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel. I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' of free will, and leave the world." (Letter 154)

"'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil." (Letter 246)

"As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing." (Letter 325)

_____________________

Originally Posted by Kath

Which rather begs the question ... why go? For Frodo the answer is clear, less so for the others.

I think this is answered well in the letters quoted above. Sam and Bilbo share the same 'clear' reason as Frodo - to give some relief to the mental wound from the Ring.

Gimli had grown so much in his love for elves, both Legolas and Galadriel, that it would've been a sad burden to stay behind in Middle-earth; he comes by a special favor granted Galadriel.
______________________

Originally Posted by TheLostPilgrim

The fate of the Elves sounds rather cruel...That if they stayed they'd forget their own natures and be relegated to caves and hidden places. They were the most beautiful of ME's peoples, and seemingly the wisest and purest in nature. However, you make it sound like if they did go to the Undying Lands they would retain the full beauty and glory of their nature...Am I correct in reading it that way?

The events of the books, late in Third Age, are meant to wrap up the age of elves and wizards, completing the transition of the world to the age of men. This was destined to happen. The elves had their 'time' in the world through the First Age onwards. I think it's shown that Middle-earth changes too quickly for their long lives. In their immortality, they find themselves strangers in a strange world where everything else ages and dies in endless cycles while they continued unchanged. As such, they try to preserve, embalm as much as they can, but in Aman, they will find that comes naturally.

{Sidenote: Upon awakening in the early days of Arda, most of the elves traveled directly to Aman (known as the Great Journey) and remained there. Only a portion strayed from the journey and stuck around Beleriand/Middle-earth, and later another portion returned for something special (long story, that!). If you enjoy this, you've got to read The Silmarillion!}

It is time for the mortal races to inherit the world, becoming its only primary stewards. Gandalf explains as much towards the end of Book 6, Chapter 5 'The Steward And The King.' After the situation in Gondor is resolved and Aragorn is made king, Gandalf takes him out onto Mindolluin one night. As dawn comes, Gandalf shows Aragorn all the land below which he is to rule, and charges him the responsibility.

And Gandalf said, 'This is your realm, and the heart of the greater realm that shall be. The Third Age of the world is ended, and the new age is begun; and it is your task to order its beginning and to preserve what may be preserved. For though much has been saved, much must now pass away; and the power of the Three Rings also is ended. And all the lands that you see, and those that lie around them, shall be dwellings of Men. For the time comes of the Dominion of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.'

'I know it well dear friend,' said Aragorn; 'but I would still have your counsel.'

'Not for long now,' said Gandalf. 'The Third Age was my age. I was the enemy of Sauron; and my work is finished. I shall go soon. The burden must lie now upon you and your kindred.''

This is one of the important underlying themes of the book - ultimately why such potent entities as the wizards and elven lords did not directly intervene or act against Sauron this time around, the purpose behind Manwe sending a few Maiar as old wizards (Gandalf, Saruman, the other three), and Gandalf's decision to put the Ring in the hands of a small, simple hobbit.

The wizards and elves (Elrond, Galadriel) could've attempted to accomplish these things on their own, but since their time was fading, the idea was to nudge the mortal races to grow in stature and save the world from evil on their own. The immortals wouldn't always be around to weld their strength everytime an enemy cropped up and threatened peace and life. The mortals would eventually have to fight their own battles.

A bit of 'grow up, son!' from Gandalf to Aragorn.

[The Mouth of Sauron]

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

That's logical.

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

Well, there had to have been settlements nearby, but I don't think habitation was the primary purpose of the Havens.


On a different note, going back to Frodo and Sam's motives for leaving, I think what's already been said does apply, but could there have been another factor for those two?

HOME XII has an interesting chapter on lembas, and there it is said that the Eldar did not allow mortals to use that waybread, except under very special circumstances. The Elves had been instructed from the first that if mortals ate too much of it, they would grow weary of mortality and long for "the fields of Aman, to which they cannot come".

Frodo and Sam would seem to have eaten more of the lembas than any other members of the Fellowship, and they ate it alone as well, which was said to increase its virtue. Could that also have increased its other effects, causing Frodo and Sam to yearn for immortal lands?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

It's by no meams certain that Legolas and Gimli left via the Grey Havens. Rather Legolas "built a ship in Ithilien" and therefore probably sailed west via the Anduin.

Also I'm not sure that the Grey Havens were simply ports. Even in the Fourth Age there were still High Elves left in Eriador and it's possible that they used these Havens as a place to live.

I've also wondered if the Grey Haven's might have been a sort of "way station". Based on the description, most of the regualar boats were crafts of at least reasonable size, and so would need a decent size crew* (maybe 10 or so, or double that if elves tire and need to work in shifts). Since all trips from the Grey Havens are essentially one way, that means that each trip needs about a dozen people. Unless elves tend to get the call en-masse, or form alliances where the weary agree to wait until fellow elves get weary before they leave, this would mean that every now and then, an elf might need somewhere to wait till there was a sufficent party for a voyage (this seems not to have happened in the case of the Fellowship, but by that time elves were leaving fairly frequently, so finding five to seven others might not be hard.) The Grey havens might be there for just that purpose, an Elven community that, amongst other things, houses waiting elves until their turn comes up.

* Legolas in all probabilty did not take anyone except Gimli with him, but Legolas built his own boat, and presumably bult a smaller one, that only needed a crew of 2 (or 1 to allow him and Gimli to share the work) Even so, I imagine that, in terms of sheer labor, Legolas and Gimli had a somewhat more arduous and strenuous trip than most to the Grey Havens.

[Elmo]

I think they would have done what Nimrodel and Amroth tried to do and sail to Aman straight from the mouths of the Anduin.

[Guinevere]

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

Perhaps the smell of sea-air awakens in Elves some sort of latent affinity that gives them the ability to learn the craft of shipbuilding and the art of sailing quickly.

Maybe it's part of the music of Ulmo, which calls to all the Eldar.

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I only wonder how Legolas could have aquired the skill to build a seaworthy boat and manage to sail and steer it across the Sea! Sailing needs some practice! He had always lived in the woods and to my knowledge never spent any time at the seaside. But someone must have taught him...

Well, first consider that he had, by that time, been living in Ithilien for close to 120 years - plenty of time to learn the art from Gondorian shipwrights at Pelargir or Dol-Amroth. Having the sea-longing already awakened in him, he would have been anticipating the time when he would finally "follow the longing in his heart" and sail away -- and would have been looking to develop his learning.

Also, when it says "he built a grey ship in Ithilien", it doesn't need to be interpreted that he built it "single-handed". The learning, then, would be developed in his community. And that could well have been assisted by contact with Mithlond in the North (as well has Gondor) for, while Cirdan had left, nothing reports that ALL of the mariners chose to leave at that time.

Similarly, while it suggests that he took Gimli with him, it never says they were the ONLY two persons on the ship.

So, I suggest he took the 120 years to, among other things, develop a community of mariners (drawing on the ship learning of Gondor and Mithlond), build a sea-worthy ship, and (at the end) captain a ship on which Gimli was a passenger (and companion) but which was sailed by a band of Elves led by Legolas.

[Mithalwen]

HAd Cirdan left? I thought he stayed on after the Ringbearers..

Sailing does need practice but we know Elves are quick learners and Legolas had handled small boats all his lfe.

My cousin has been dinghy sailing since early childhood and was a qualified dayskipper in his teens and yachtmaster at 20 He is just 25 an officer in the Royal Navy and qualified to steer warships. And could have been a couple of years sooner had he joined straight from university. There have been a few teenage solo circumnavigators so it isn't impossible to gain a high level of competence young. Yes they have the benefit of technology now but I suspect that the main issue is the right to take the Straight road rather than technical competence.

[Galadriel55]

Plus, Legolas didn't sail the day Aragorn died. After he decided to forsake ME he probably took some sailing lessons, before going.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

HAd Cirdan left? I thought he stayed on after the Ringbearers..

This has been a matter of debate, but for myself, I currently fall on the side of Ciryatan leaving with Gandalf and the other bearers of the Three.

[Mithalwen]

We know Gondor had a shipbuilding tradition and it is possible that some of the Elves who decamped with Legolas may have all got the sea longing. It is possible that as they attempted to restablish the North Kingdom that there was a certain amount of sea traffic between Gondor and Lindon. I imagine it would be more efficient for cargo transport certainly.