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Old 02-11-2003, 10:06 PM   #1
lindil
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Sting * * Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.5 -- >end [the remaining sections] * *

3 down 2 to go!

[ed note: I have not double checked but there seems to be in something of chronological mess with the dragon and balrog sections pulled out of the main flow of the story.]

The Closing Portions

FG-C-01
down all the ways from {north} [south], {east} [west], and {west} [east], seeking the Square of the King.

FG-C-02
... even Gothmog lord of Balrogs{, son of Melko}
Gothmog as Melko/Morgoth's son occurs only here and in two other places in BoLT, never later.

FG-C-03 KO
Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered, for such were the words of {Annon the prophet of old} [the prophecy of the North][,saying: ] /*BoLT1 'Great is the fall of the hidden rock!'*/; but Tuor speaking wildly for ruth and love of the king cried: …
There is no mention in any text later than FG that the prophecy of the North specifically mentioned the fall of Gondolin, naming the city itself.
In BoLT 1 the story of the Prophecy of the North is given, ending with:
... and he foretold to them many of the evil adventures that after came to them, warning them against Melko, and at last he said: 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', and none there understood for Turondo son of Nólemë was not yet upon Earth.
Lindil mentions the powerful effect of Turgon's cry here and wishes to retain it.
In no later account is there any mention of a prophecy of the fall of Gondolin in either the giving of the Prophecy of the North or the story of the fall of Gondolin. The tale of the prophecy in QS77 only relates:
Much it foretold in dark words, which the Noldor understood not until the woes indeed after befell them;
but no actual words of this prophecy are given at all. Then follows the curse laid on the Noldor which Tolkien added to the prophecy, and that is given in full.
Is the omission of the mention of Gondolin here purposeful, or the result of compression? The difficulty is to understand how Turgon and his people could have named his city Gondolin if this prophecy was well known. Normally in tales of the coming of a prophecied doom something happens, then someone recalls an obscure prophecy, and then for the first time the dread meaning of the prophecy is understood. This could be brought in here allowing a little fan fiction.
I will postulate that the prophecy, spoken in Quenya, actually ended with "Great is the fall of the hidden rock!" Tolkien does tell us in "The Later Quenta Silmarillion", 12, that Turgon really named his city in Quenya as Ondolindë 'Singing Stone' (a metaphor for carved stone), but this was translated into Sindarin as Gondolin, and then interpreted by a kind of pun as Gond dolen 'Hidden Rock'.
So during the sack, Turgon remembers suddenly the Quenya words of the prophecy and calls out in Sindarin, "Great is the fall of Gondolin!" Those who hear him now understand: their city is the hidden rock of the Prophecy of the North!

FG-C-03
Then said the king: [']Great is the fall of Gondolin['], and men shuddered{, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly for ruth and love of the king cried: …
There is no mention in any text later than FG that the prophecy of the North specifically mentioned the fall of Gondolin, naming the city itself.

FG-C-04
{Glingol} [Glingal] was {withered} [melted] to the stock and {Bansil} [Belthil] was blackened utterly, and the king's tower was beset.
Rewording

FG-C-05
There came they at the last lessened by wellnigh a tithe to the tunnel's opening /*Q30 far beyond the walls and in the North of the plain where the mountains were long distant from Amon {Gwareth} [Gwared]*/, and it debouched cunningly in a large basin where once water had lain, but it was now full of thick bushes.
Additional details

FG-C-06
The Way of Escape was closed according to "The Wanderings of Húrin", and therefore Christopher Tolkien omitted the mentions of it in the Q77 fall of Gondolin. But it is possible that, though closed from the outside, it was still able to be opened from the inside and that JRRT intended this. If the Way of Escape material is to be omitted then:
{Thereat rose a dissension, for a number said that it were folly to make for Cristhorn as Tuor purposed. "The sun," say they, "will be up long ere we win the foothills, and we shall be whelmed in the plain by those drakes and those demons. Let us fare to Bad Uthwen, the Way of Escape, for that is but half the journeying, and our weary and our wounded may hope to win so far if no further."
Yet Idril spake against this, and persuaded the lords that they trust not to the magic of that way that had aforetime shielded it from discovery: "for what magic stands if Gondolin be fallen?"}
If kept, then some changed wording and additional matter from Q30:
Nonetheless a large body of men and women {sundered from} /*Q30 who would not come with*/ Tuor {and fared to Bad Uthwen, and there into the jaws of a monster who by the guile of Melko at Meglin's rede sat at the outer issue that none came through}. /*Q30 , but fled to the old Way of Escape that led into the gorge of Sirion and opened it anew, were caught and destroyed by a dragon that Morgoth had sent to watch that gate, being apprised of it by {Meglin} [Maeglin]. But of the new passage {Meglin} [Maeglin] had not heard, and it was not thought that fugitives would take a path towards the North and the highest parts of the mountains and the nighest to Angband.*/ /*FG Thereat*/ {But} the {others} /*Q30 fugitives*/ …
I find no reference anywhere to a collapse of the Way of Escape, merely: "the Dry Gate was blocked and the arched gate was buried." CT states in note 28 to "Wanderings" that his dropping the Way of Escape was based on this single and singular statement. I can't find any other passage bearing on the issue. CT's invention of a purposeful closing by Turgon makes good sense in the context.
But you are right that an attempt to use the Way might have been made, if it was still openable. So we have to decide, with no evidence either way that I can see, *Sigh!* whether it was permanently closed, perhaps by forced collapse of the tunnel, or whether Turgon had only closed the outside wall, but left it able to be broken open from inside again if there was need or he wished the gate to exist again.
Possibly the principle of not rejecting anything that JRRT wrote that is not contradicted by his own writing applies here. He relates that the gate was closed in one place, but that the Way of Escape was used in another, and there is no real contradiction if the Way was reasonably easy to re-open from the inside: say a day's work with pickaxes and shovels for a large tast force and removal of a binding spell? "We made it, we're out! My, what big teeth the exit has!".

FG-C-07
Then was all the Earth spread with the grey light of that sad dawn which looked no more on the beauty of Gondolin; but the {plain was full of mists} /*Q30 fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North, fell upon the vale in mournful mists*/ − and that was a marvel, for no mist or fog came there ever before{, and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king}. Again they rose, and covered by the vapours fared long past dawn in safety, till they were already too far away for any to descry them in those misty airs from the hill or from the ruined walls /*Q30 ; and thus was the escape of Tuor and his company aided, for there was still a long and open road to follow from the tunnel's mouth to the foothills of the mountains*/.
Rewording
My logic was that in recasting the FB sentence in Q30 JRRT replaced FG "the plain was full of mists" with Q30 "fell upon the vale in mournful mists" and FG "and this perchance had to do with the doom of the fountain of the king" is replaced by Q30 "The fume of the burning, and the steam of the fair fountains of Gondolin withering in the flame of the dragons of the North". The Q30 sentence thus replaces the original with the two elements reversed, but I felt it reasonable and in accord with the principles to re-insert into the the Q30 sentence the missing informaton that this had never happened before, as there's nothing to indicate that information was dropped for any reason other than general compression. Q30 is certainly better here as well as being later: smoke from burning would have been contributing to the "mist" and there is no need of a "perchance" to relate the true mist to the turning of the fountain(s) to steam. We can re-add the somewhat redundant "the plain was full of mists" alongside its replacement. It really doesn't matter.

FG-C-08
… and very weary and cumbered with /*Q30 many*/ women and children and sick and /*Q30 many*/ stricken men, …
The addition of "many" twice is only necessary as a change in wording by JRRT in the later Q30 version. I was also going to change "stricken" to "wounded" following the Q30 corresponding sentence, and then noticed that "wounded" does occur three sentences later in FG material that can still be considered part of the material summarized by the Q30 sentence, and so accepted this later use of "wounded" to equal the word "wounded" in Q30. Pedantic and somewhat silly and artificial considerations! Yet for each Q30 sentence I had to decide to what extent it was a summary of FG and to what extent original addition, and whether different wording was a result of it being a summary or a true later change. That's the way the game has to be played. The decisions must be made. Fortunately most of them don't matter: any mixture of wording from the two sources reads equally well.

FG-C-09
Thus were they come to {Cristhorn} [Cirith Thoronath], which is {an ill} /*Q30 a dreadful*/ place by reason of its height …
Rewording

FG-C-10
Yet so many did the valour of the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] draw off to the assault ere the city could be taken that these were but thinly spread, and were at the least here in the {south} [north]/*Q30 , and it was not thought that fugitives would take a path towards the North and the highest parts of the mountains and the nighest to Angband*/.
Insertion to be placed here if the Way of Escape passage is omitted, otherwise it has already been used.

FG-C-11
Then arose {Thorndor} [Thorondor], King of Eagles, and he loved not {Melko} [Morgoth]{, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwë in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not}.
The tale of why Thorondor hates Morgoth should be kept it as does not contradict anything else, but though it would fit in this place in an independent story of the fall of Gondolin, in the legendarium as a whole it should be related much earlier, possibly when Thorondor aids in rescuing Maedhros, but probably best just before he scars Morgoth and rescues the body of Fingolfin.

FG-C-12
… and {Thorndor} [Thorondor] himself, a mighty bird, descended to the abyss and {brought up the body of Glorfindel} /*Q30 bore up Glorfindel's body*/; …
Rewording:

FG-C-13
.. Tuor let raise a great {stone-cairn} /*Q30 mound of stones*/ over Glorfindel just there beyond the perilous {way} /*pass*/ by the precipice of Eagle-stream, and {Thorndor} [Thorondor] {has} let not {yet} any harm come thereto, {but yellow flowers have fared thither} /*Q30 and there came after a turf of green and small flowers like yellow stars bloomed there*/ and {blow} ever {now} about that mound {in those unkindly places} /*Q30 amid the barrenness of stone*/; but the folk of the Golden Flower wept at its building and might not dry their tears. /*Q30 And the birds of {Thorndor} [Thorondor] stooped upon the {Orcs} [Orks] and drove them shrieking back; and all were slain or cast into the deeps, and rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears.*/
Rewording. Also FG claims Thorondor is still protecting the cairn and flowers still blow there. This might be allowed to stand on consideration that possibly that tale was written down at the mouths of Sirion before the breaking of Beleriand, but I think it is best to omit. Also Q30 adds here an account of how the eagles slew all the Orks, which I take to be an addition to FG, not a retrospective account of the Eagles' part in the battle. JRRT is explaining why no word of the fugitives came to the army or to Morgoth: because the Eagles pursued and slew all the Orks. Doubtless it was believed the Eagles alone were to blame for the slaughter of the Orks and Balrog and so no search was made for fugitives in that region.

FG-C-14
... and from the speed and wariness with which Tuor led them{; for of a certain Melko knew of that escape and was furious thereat}.
An omission as we have just been told in Q30 that "rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to Morgoth's ears":

FG-C-15
But after {a year and more of} wandering{,} in which many a time they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks, {once more the summer came, and nigh to its height} they came at last upon a stream, and following this came to better lands and were a little comforted.
In the latest version of TY we find:
510 Midsummer. Assault and sack of Gondolin, owing to treachery of Maeglin who revealed where it lay.
511 Exiles of Gondolin (Tuor, Idril and Eärendil) reach Sirion, which now prospers in the power of the Silmaril.
That the fugitives arrive at Sirion's mouth in the year following the sack of Gondolin first appears in the "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" and is never changed after. The much lengthier chronology in FG must be modified.
I made an unwarranted assumption here! FG states: "But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of willows in years after and fared away to sea, when spring set celandine in the meads and they had held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel, ..." I used this to date to the spring the Q30 "feast in memory of Gondolin" and subsequent removal to the Sea. All annals which mention the fall of Gondolin place the arrival of Tuor and the fugitives at the mouth of Sirion in the following year. So either the FG timing of over a year for the wandering in the mountains or the FG spring dating for the departure from the Land of Willows must be removed. Or both? I see nothing to push definitely one way or the other. I suspect that one reason JRRT did have the fugutives escape to the north rather than the south was that a northern route led them into wilder territory on the edge of Dorthonion which Morgoth held. That might support the year of wandering. But that still seems a large space of time to wander in, particular if they are in part being guided by Eagles. *Sigh!* Even eight months of wandering seems a lot, but that would still get them to Nan-tathren in plenty of time to leave again in the spring. Aesthetically I like the note about the spring, so will leave that for now as there is no other logic I can see to pull one way or the other otherwise.
We have, it seems, a simple choice:
1. compress the year of wandering, or 2. change the season of the journey to Sirion. I'd rather not change both, though others may differ. Each has points in its favor:
1. a. If we compress the wandering, we make the arrival at Sirion the next year more plausible, because otherwise we have only at most a few months for them to dwell in Nan-tathren and go to the havens; b. We keep the aesthetic point of their leaving in spring.
2. a. There's nothing specific in later writings that denies a year of wandering; I don't think that the TY material can be considered to do this; b. the passage from which comes the mention of spring is already contradicted by the 'in years after', making me perhaps a little more inclined to cut this.

FG-C-16
Now he led them even till they came down to Sirion which that stream fed{, and then both Tuor and Voronwë saw that they were not far from the outer issue of old of the Way of Escape, and were once more in that deep dale of alders. Here were all the bushes trampled and the trees burnt, and the dale-wall scarred with flame, and they wept, for they thought they knew the fate of those who sundered aforetime from them at the tunnel-mouth}.
A omission required if the previous Way of Escape section is dropped.

FG-C-17
Now here goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the Pools of Twilight{, even where Tulkas after fought with Melko's self. Tuor had fared over these regions by night and dusk after Ulmo came to him amid the reeds, and he remembered not the ways}.
Omission of probably invalid material. Tulkas seemingly did not accompany the host of Valinor in the later versions of the War of Wrath and there is no indication that any battle occurred in this area in the later versions; indeed the whole tale seems changed.
Also in the new version of Tuor's story he has not previously been near this region.

FG-C-18
Yet came they at last to the great pools and the edges of /*Q30 {Nan-Tathrn} [Nan-Tathren]*/ that most tender Land of Willows; …
Add Elvish name

FG-C-19
Here might be inserted a slightly modified version of the Fragment of the alliterative Lay of Eärendel found in The Lays of Beleriand (HoME 3), II Poems Early Abandoned.
This would appear as a retrospective summary of the story from the actual fall to this point in the tale.

FG-C-20
{Here they abode very long indeed, and Eärendel was a grown boy ere} /*Q30 There,*/ /*FG when spring set celandine in the meads {and they had held} /*Q30 , they made a*/ sad {festival in memorial}*/ /*Q30 feast in the memory of Gondolin and those that had perished, fair maidens, wives, and warriors and their king; but for Glorfindel the well-beloved many and sweet were the songs they sang.*/
Omission for chronological reasons and insertion from Q30.
FG brings in here the decision to remove to the Sea, and then a festival before they depart. Q30 has a festival and then the decision to remove to the Sea, which we must follow as this is Tolkien's most latest ordering. But FG also brings in a notation as they prepare to depart and begin to hold the feast, that it is spring. This note about the season should appear first, and so is inserted here also.

FG-C-21
/*Q30 And there Tuor in song spoke to {Eärendel} [Eärendil] his son of the coming of Ulmo aforetime, the sea-vision {in the midst of the land}*/[.]
Immediately follows with omission to agree with Tuor

FG-C-22
Here should be inserted the poem "The Horns of Ylmir".
This poem is found in The Shaping of Middle-earth (HoME 4), III The Quenta, Appendix 2.
Lines 13 to 66 are a poem about a violent rising tide complete in itself. The poem was called The Tides and was annotated Dec. 4 1914 and On the Cornish Coast.
Later JRRT added lines 1-12 and 67-74 to provide a frame to present the original poem as a vision seen by Tuor when he heard the horns of Ulmo in the Land of Willows. The new beginning and conclusion are tightly bound to the BoLT version of the Tuor story where Tuor first hears Ulmo's horns while standing knee-deep in the grass of the Land of Willows at twilight and senses no more the sounds, sights and odors of that land. He is transported in his mind to a rocky seacoast and sees, hears, and smells the sea. Then he awakens and finds himself still in the inland grasses among the willows.
In the new Tuor Ulmo's meeting with Tuor occured inland but right on the seacoast as a storm arose. Only after Ulmo gave Tuor his message did he blow on his horn, but not in long playing of musics but in "a single great note". Since Tuor in this version is already on just such a stormy seacoast such as he saw in his vision in the previous version, the vision called forth in the new version must be changed. Now instead Tuor sees all the waters of the world, then the depths of the Sea, and then the coast of Valinor under Oiolossë, suddenly awakening to the thunder of the storm.
The poem of course can be used without the introductory and concluding lines, making only the emendation of "roaring" to "rolling" as given by CT in this note for line 21 and the nomalizing change of Ylmir to Ulmo. This is certainly the most conservative solution.
I do however have some suggestions for possible modification of the introduction and conclusion.

FG-C-23
[The] {the} voice of Ulmo's conches drew the heart of Tuor{,} that his sea-longing returned with a thirst the deeper for years of stifling{;}[,] /*Q30 in his heart and in his son's. Wherefore*/ {and all that host} /*Q30 the most part of the people*/ arose at his bidding, and {got them} /*Q30 they {removed} [journeyed] */ down Sirion to the Sea.
Rewording

FG-C-24
{Now the folk that had passed into the Eagles' Cleft and who saw the fall of Glorfindel had been nigh eight hundreds − a large wayfaring, yet was it a sad remnant of so fair and numerous a city.} But they who arose from the grasses of the Land of Willows {in years after} and fared away to sea, {when spring set celandine in the meads and they had held sad festival in memorial of Glorfindel,} these numbered but three hundreds and a score of men and man-children …
Omissions for reasons of chronology. Tuor and the fugitives no longer spend years in the land of Willows and the FG festival in memorial of Glorfindel held after the decision to go to the Sea must correspond to the Q30 feast in memory of Gondolin where songs are sung for Glorfindel already included from the fuller Q30 account, though there it is held before the decision. The reference to celandine in the spring is deleted in this passage and inserted where the festival is now located.

FG-C-25
Nor {Bablon, nor Ninwi, nor the towers of Trui, nor} all the many takings {of Rûm} that {is} are greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon {Gwareth} [Gwared] in the kindred of the {Gnomes} [Elves] …
Omission of anachronistic listing of cities as could not exist as part of the original tale, except as a very late marginal note.

FG-C-26 True ending of the tale of Tuor
Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea /*Q30 , and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before*/. There they take the name of {Lothlim} [Lothrim], the people of the flower, for {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] is a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the {Lothlim} [Lothrim] {Eärendel} [Eärendil] grows in /*TE-N(i) the Isle of Sirion in*/ the /*TE-N(i) snow-white stone*/ the house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.'
{Then said Littleheart son of {Bronweg} [Voronwë]: 'Alas for Gondolin.'
And no one in all the Room of Logs spake or moved for a greatwhile.}
All following material is placed in BoTL, in the Sketch, and in Q30 as part of the introduction to the tale of Eärendil, not as part of the story of Tuor. Either position can work. Which is best depends on how much material we have on the youth of Eärendil before Tuor sets sail. I think we won't find much more than Christopher Tolkien did, and will probably end up following his lead in including these final events and Tuor's departure as an epilogue to the Tuor story rather than the prologue to the Eärendil story.

FG-C-27 Of Gil-galad
/*PG {Ereinion} [Rodnor] Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond and come to Sirion's Mouth, was /*QS77 named*/ King of the Noldor there. He was styled Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height.*/
Christopher Tolkien adds at this point in Q77 a passage partly editorial:
And when the tidings came to Balar of the fall of Gondolin and the death of Turgon, Ereinion Gil-galad son of Fingon was named High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth.
The sources of this, so far as I can trace are all in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 13):
In an isolated note found with the genealogies dated August 1965, published in PG:
His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.
From SF under the note The Names of Finwë's descendants, 5, under the discussion of Galadriel:
Galad also occurs in the epessë of Ereinion ('scion of kings') by which he was chiefly remembered in legend, Gil-galad 'star-of-radiance': he was the last king of the Eldar in Middle-earth, and the last male descendant of Finwë^47 except Elrond Half-elven. The epessë was given to him because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or moonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height. (47 He was the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod.)
Gil-galad is no longer the son of Fingon sent to Círdan at the Havens, and I expect it was the connection to the Havens which led Christopher Tolkien to introduce Balar here. Details of Gil-galad's mother best belong in the story of Túrin. I suggest the following might be a suitable enhancement/correction of the QS77 sentence.

FG-C-28
/*QS30 Yet by Sirion and the sea there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath[.]/*AB2 The Silmaril brought blessing upon them and /*Elessar Idril wore the Elessar upon her breast*//*AB2 , and they were healed, and they multiplied*/ /*QS77 ; and from Balar the mariners of Círdan came among them*/, and they took to the waves and {the making of fair ships} /*QS77 the building of ships*/ /*AB2 and built a haven*/, dwelling ever nigh unto the shores /*QS77 of Arvernien*/, /*AB2 upon the delta amid the waters*/ under the shadow of Ulmo's hand. /*AB2 Many fugitives gathered unto them.*/*/
A mixture of sources for the foundation of the new havens.
I do not know the original source of either of the two addition from QS77 I have inserted. The first is too reasonable to reject, and the second is, I think, Christopher Tolkien's way of getting the name Arvernien found in Bilbo's "Song of Eärendil" in LR into QS77 text. It otherwise only appears on the QS77 map.

FG-C-29
/*Q30 /*QS77 And it is said that in that time Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters waters, and spoke there to*/ {In Valinor Ulmo spoke unto} the Valar of the need of the Elves, and he called on them to forgive and send succour unto them and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth, and win back the Silmarils wherein alone now bloomed the light of the days of bliss when the Two Trees still were shining. Or so it is said, among the {Gnomes} [Noldor], who after had tidings of many things from their kinsfolk the Quendi, the Light-elves beloved of Manwë, who ever knew something of the mind of the Lord of the Gods. But as yet Manwë moved not, and the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell? The Quendi have said that the hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon upon their mis- deeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers; and the oath of Fëanor perchance even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim. For the light which lit the Silmarils the {Gods} [Valar] had made.*/
In the pleading of Ulmo there are stylistic differences and certain omissions from the Q30 version to the QS77 version, probably changes made by Christopher Tolkien himself for aesthetic reasons, and to be ignored unless someone can find other sources. Stick to Q30 here.

FG-C-30
/*TE-B Then began the love of /*TE-C Elwing*/ and {Eärendel} [Eärendil] as girl and boy. /*TE-E The mermaids*/, the /*TE-D Oarni*/, /*TE-E {come} [came] to {Eärendel} [Eärendil]*/ and /*TE-N(ii) {give} [gave] to {Eärendel} [him] a wonderful shining silver coat that {wets} [wetted] not. They loved {Eärendel} [Eärendil], in Ossë's despite, and {teach} taught him the lore of boat-building and of swimming, as he {plays} [played] with them about the shores of Sirion.*/ /*TE-D {Eärendel} [Eärendil] grew to be the fairest of all Men that were or are,*/ /*TE-N(iii) smaller than most men but nimbled-footed and a swift swimmer (but Voronwë could not swim).*/ /*TE-C And there was great love between {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and Tuor.*/*/
To be inserted at this point.
Mention of the Oarni and mermaids is only found in BoLT material. The Quenya word Oarni appears from the Appendix to BoLT 1 under Ónen to be from the root 'o'o and related to Ô, a poetic word for 'sea'. But this root and everything connected with it disappears in later writings, where the normal word for "sea" in Quenya is ëar from a stem AYAR-, itself explained as an extended stem from GAYA- 'awe, dread'. So it is difficult to even guess what word, if any, Tolkien would have used to replace Oarni. To further confuse the matter in TE N(viii) we find:
'The fiord of the Mermaid: enchantment of his sailors: Mermaids are not Oarni (but are earthlings, or fays? ** or both).'
However in TE D the two are equated, and in other texts it is either the Oarni or the mermaids who are named as Eärendel's friends.
Tolkien may in this note only mean that these particular hostile "mermaids" were not true Oarni but another kind of being. Therefore I keep both words. Since in late writings Tolkien claimed that most names of the Valar were not truly Quenya, but adapted forms from the language of the Valar, that is what we probably should take Oarni to be. In references to the Oarni outside of TE their gender is not
given. It may be that Oarni are of both genders.
On mermaids, anything written by Tolkien is not to be disregarded unless contradicted by later ideas or in error, etc. I don't know
that he did drop them. The late Eärendil information is so frustratingly sketchy, almost worse than the early material. Any scrap of
information is important. And they appear in four separate notes. I don't imagine Tolkien was talking about fish-tailed women if that is
what bothers. I see something along the lines of the Nereids and Okeanids of Greek myth. But who knows?

FG-C-31
/*QS30 In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him /*TE-C and Ulmo's conches far out west {over the sea} {call} [called] him louder and louder*/, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship Eärrámë, Sea-wing, /*TE-D with white sails*/. /*TE-D Ulmo beckoned to him at eve.*/ /*TE-E One evening he {calls} [called] {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and they {go} [went] to the shore. There {is a skiff} [was Eärámë]. {Tur} [Tuor] {bids} [bade] farwell to {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and bid{s} him thrust it off ***/ {and with Idril} he set sail [with Idril] /*TY [(and some say Voronwë with them)]*/ into the sunset and the West[.] /*TE-E {Eärendel} [Eärendil] {hears} [heard] a great song swelling from the sea as {Tur} [Tuor]'s skiff {dips} [dipped] over the world's rim. {His} [Great was his] passion of tears upon the shore.*/{, and} [And Tuor] came no more into any tale or song.
But /*QS77 in after days it was sung that*/ Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and joined with the {Noldoli} [Noldor] whom he loved, and in after time dwelt still, or so it hath been said, ever upon his ship voyaging the seas of the Elven-lands, or resting a while in the harbours of the {Gnomes} [Elves] of Tol Eressëa; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.*/
Follow immediately.
This final paragaph above should probably be in a slightly smaller font. It is found only in a footnote to Q30 but Christopher Tolkien omits part of it in QS77.
In TY final version under 525 is found:
... and departed into the West with Idril (and Voronwë?) and is heard of in no tale since.
I use this Voronwë reference "(Voronwë?)" in expanded form, for Tuor prophecies in "Of the Coming of Tuor to Gondolin: "far from the Shadow your long road shall lead you, and your hope shall return to the Sea." Voronwë had originally been a companion in Eärendil's final successful voyage, but dropped out when the story was changed so that Eärendil no longer returned to Middle-earth to learn from Voronwë that Elwing had vanished, the point at which Voronwë had originally joined him (with his son Littleheart?). The phrase "in after days it was sung that" I believe to be an editorial transition by Christopher Tolkien, but something like this is necessary to mark off the more legendary account of Tuor's final fate. Every other account (BoLlT, Silmarillion tradition, annal tradition) says only that nothing more was heard of Tuor after his last voyage.
Trying to get the other stuff into Q30 was the problem. On any of this mixed material, you or anyone are welcome rework it to read better and still include all the material. With multiple source passages I often stopped at the point, tired but happy, where I had finally managed to fit all the material in somewhere.


Suggested emendations to Fragment of an alliterative Lay of Eärendel

FG-LE-01
{But Wade of the Helsings wearyhearted}
Remove line 7a

FG-LE-02
Tûr to Tuor in line 8.

FG-LE-03
Tumladin to Tumladen in line 12.

FG-LE-04
Line 15 from:
of Cristhorn was cloven, the Cleft of Eagles,
to:
of the Cleft was cloven, Cirith Thoronath,

FG-LE-05
Melko to Morgoth in line 19.

FG-LE-06
Thornsir to Thoronhir in line 25.
Tolkien gave two replacement lines in the notes which avoid the Elvish name "Thornsir", but the second is incomplete and so these replacements cannot be used. The form Thornsir is puzzling as a contraction into one word of the FG form Thorn Sir. One would expect * Thornhir, just as Minhirath 'Between the rivers' presumably derives from min + * siriath. Also see Limhîr or Limhir 'clear / sparkling river' from lim + sîr in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), references in the index. Hence my suggested standard Sindarin form * Thoronhir. Possibly assimilation rules were different in early Gnomish.

FG-LE-07
thirty moons to thwarting mazes in line 26.
In the later chronology a timing of thirty (or even thirteen) months is utterly impossible.
One could use "three moons" perhaps, but the exact number of months taken to pass from the Cirith Thoronath to finding of Sirion is not stated elsewhere, and I would rather not invent a number here just for the alliteration. But in the FG account is found "wandering in the wastes" and "they journeyed long tangled in the magic of those wastes only to come again upon their own tracks". For this "thwarting mazes" does well.

FG-LE-08
Gods to Powers in line 30.
Tolkien generally ceases to use of "Gods" for the "Valar" in later narrative writing except when speaking particularly of Men or when untutored Men are speaking.

FG-LE-09
… the Vanished Isles to past the Vanished Isle in line 31.
Christopher Tolkien could not interpret the word, but "past" is a good guess from sense required, and the word seems to have been a short one. The "Vanished Isles", plural, is hard to understand. The Magic Isles are not vanished but accessible, though those who disembark there fall into enchanted sleep. But Eressëa could be entitled "Vanished Isle", singular, as no longer attainable from Middle-earth because of the enchantments placed on the Sea before it during the Hiding of Valinor. Turgon's mariners who sought to reach to Valinor would have been well aware of this. The plural form might be an error by JRRT or a misreading by CT.

FG-LE-10
… the sweet breezes to then the sweet breezes in line 35
As thought a possible reading by CT.

FG-LE-11
and the dew enchanted … to and the dew enchanted drenched their feet. in line 37.
This completion to the last half-line of the fragment is suggested by line 70 of "The Horns of Ylmir":
Where the long grass stirred beside me, and my feet were drenched with dew.

FG-LE-12
The words in the lay "all this have others in ancient stories / and songs unfolded, but say I further" are a problem in my suggested setting at the festival. If used here, as a sample of festival song, then the final lines, 32-38, should be dropped. Another possiblity is to place it just after the arrival in Nan-tathren (where the fragment ends) without particular explanation. It just appear as a poetic fragment giving a retrospective summary of the parts of the tale previously related. If we break up the Fall into chapters, it could start one of them. These all just suggestions. It should be fitted in somewhere I feel.


Suggested changes to the poem "The Horns of Ylmir"

FG-HY-01
{It was in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green −
I was fingering my harp-strings, for a wind had crept unseen
And was speaking in tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
Were whispering reedy whispers as the sunset touched the meads,}
The first four lines are incompatible and must be dropped.

FG-HY-02
{Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −}
[To sea musics ringing magic that the wind and wave can weave −]
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
In the twilight {by the river on} [on the sea-strand through] a hollow thing of shell
He {made immortal music, till} [blew one long and piercing note −] my heart beneath his spell
Was broken in the twilight, and the {meadows} [storm-cold] faded dim
{To} [On] great grey waters heaving round the rocks where sea-birds swim.

FG-HY-03
Till the tides went out, and the Wind {ceased} [died], and did all sea musics {died} [cease]
And I woke to silent caverns and empty sands and peace.
Then the magic drifted from me and that music loosed its bands −
Far, far-off, conches calling − {lo!} [now] I {stood} [stand] in the sweet lands,
And the meadows {were} [are] about me {where} [with] the weeping willows {grew} [too],
Where the long grass {stirred} [stirs] beside me, and my feet {were} [are] drenched with dew.
Only the reeds {were} [are] rustling, but a mist {lay} [lies] on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'{Twas} [Tis] in the Land of Willows that I {heard} [hear] th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of {Ylmir} [Ulmo] calling − and shall hear them till my death.
The conclusion I emend differently by changing most of it from past tense to present tense. Tuor now proclaims his current situation in the Land of Willows where again the sea-longing has come upon him.

[ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ February 11, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]
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Old 01-21-2004, 05:32 PM   #2
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Okay, it's time to get to work on the last section. I will look things over as soon as I get a chance (which should be sometime tonight or tomorrow). But if anyone has any comments, please speak up.
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Old 01-21-2004, 05:44 PM   #3
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I'm the first to admit that I would need to re-read the entire thread to see if there are things that I have overlooked in it.
The insertion of those two lays: Eärendil and the Horns of Ylmir, I'm not sure if those changes can be seen in this thread or if they require a different separate thread for each of them.
Admitting that I'm not the most suitable person to revise a Lay, I was hoping if someone like Aiwendil would take a major rôle in the Lays.

Quote:
§ 99 At length they had fallen in with a band somewhat too numerous, and Voronwë had dragged her thence but by the luck of the Gods, for all else with them perished, and their foe burned Tuor's house; yet found not the secret way.
I wonder at the choice of the word Gods. It somehow bothers me the use of the words Gods,wouldn't the Ñoldor or Tuor would have rather said Valar or Ainur. See change FG-18
Quote:
Tolkien almost entirely drops "Gods" as a English translation in later writings. One would normally change "Gods" to "Valar", but the Elvish form Gar Ainion specifically refers to the Ainur, that is, not just to the Valar but also to the Maiar and to the Ainur who remained outside Eä. The English translation should be equally wide. "Place of the Holy Ones" would be a full translation, but is perhaps too cumbersome.
A small thing actually.

Quote:
Fire-drakes are about it and monsters {of iron}FG-D-10 fare in and out of its gates, and great is that sack of the Balrogs and Orcs.
Because of the acceptance of the mechanical monsters, I think that we can use the deleted phrase of iron in here.

I deleted the other thread.
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Old 01-22-2004, 08:06 AM   #4
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I agree that we should not the "luck of the gods" in §99 "luck of the {Gods}[Valar]" should go. Also in the passage of FG-C-29 Manwe is named "Lords of the Gods" which we should equally emend to "Lord of {Gods}[Valar]".

I did not read the complete emendations to the two poems jet. I hope to do so with the original poems at hand.

I only like to add a thought to what was already mentioned: Since we will not find too much material for the "Tale of Eärendil" I’ think we could even make the chapter break early than Christopher Tolkien did in Sil77. And the fitting point in my few would be when the fugitives reach Nan Tathren. The Recapitulation of the story in the lay of Eärendil would than be placed at the beginning of the "Tale of Eärendil". Thus the poem would be in the position it was compiled for and we would enrich the Tale of Eärendil with substantial material.

The most important point to decide seems the Way of Escape. I tend to the solution that it was re-open able but that is out of pure personal taste.

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Old 01-22-2004, 10:59 PM   #5
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Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
I wonder at the choice of the word Gods. It somehow bothers me the use of the words Gods,wouldn't the Ñoldor or Tuor would have rather said Valar or Ainur.
Yes, this should definitely be changed. I think that we should assume a general change of gods>Valar for the whole project.

Quote:
Because of the acceptance of the mechanical monsters, I think that we can use the deleted phrase of iron in here.
Right. Are there any other mechanical monster emendations to be found in this section? On a cursory examination, I can't find any.

Regarding the two poems: the first one, The Horns of Ulmo is okay or nearly okay with Jallanite's emendations, I believe. There are some slightly awkward spots that we might rework if possible, but otherwise it looks quite good.

Jallanite's emendations to the Earendil fragment are just as good, or better. But I retain my opinion (from long ago it seems) that it's not appropriate to insert it as a song sung at the feast. For the intra-legendarium role of the poem is not a song sung at the festival, but the beginning of a full Lay of Earendil (so it is, at least, if Christopher Tolkien's conjecture is correct, and I am of the opinion that it is).
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Old 01-23-2004, 11:16 AM   #6
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Question

Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwnedil
Yes, this should definitely be changed. I think that we should assume a general change of gods>Valar for the whole project.
I agree with that too.
Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
Regarding the two poems: the first one, The Horns of Ulmo is okay or nearly okay with Jallanite's emendations, I believe. There are some slightly awkward spots that we might rework if possible, but otherwise it looks quite good.
I wonder if you could provide us with the awkward passages that you refer to.
Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
Jallanite's emendations to the Earendil fragment are just as good, or better. But I retain my opinion (from long ago it seems) that it's not appropriate to insert it as a song sung at the feast. For the intra-legendarium role of the poem is not a song sung at the festival, but the beginning of a full Lay of Earendil (so it is, at least, if Christopher Tolkien's conjecture is correct, and I am of the opinion that it is).
I agree that CT conjecture is correct, but I really like Jallanite's insertion in there. If we were to remove it to somewhere else, where would it be? Would we try to use it as the basis for another chapter perhaps?
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Old 01-24-2004, 06:35 PM   #7
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What about the Following arrangement: We tell the history of the fugitives of Gondolin up to the festival of memorial held in Nan-Tathren. (Without the two songs.) Then we end the chapter "Tour and the Fall of Gondolin".

The Chapter about Eärendil (however we will name it) would start with the revised poem "Lay of Eärendel". (For this we would need a kind of introduction. Which is the difficulty of this arrangement.) Thus the poem would stand in its right position as the introduction of the story of Eärendil. Since the poem ends in Nan-Tathren we could go on with the rest of FoG, with the addition of the "Horns of Ylmir".

Fog is already a very substantial chapter, while we would have some difficulty to find material for the Eärendil chapter (as was said before).

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Old 01-24-2004, 10:51 PM   #8
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There are two spots to consider in Jallanite's revision of "The Horns of Ulmo".

Quote:
{Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −}
[To sea musics ringing magic that the wind and wave can weave −]
Presumably the change subtly > ringing is because the reeds were subtle in a way that the wind and wave cannot be. But is the change really necessary? I don't think we are forced to abandon "subtle", and there is a slight motivation to keep it as it is the original word.

Quote:
And the meadows {were} [are] about me {where} [with] the weeping willows {grew} [too],
Where the long grass {stirred} [stirs] beside me, and my feet {were} [are] drenched with dew.
This is the spot I thought was awkward. I think the rhyme on "too" sounds forced and a bit amateurish - not that I'm blaming Jallanite; I've looked long and hard at the line and can think of nothing better. But if it can be changed, it should be.

Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
I agree that CT conjecture is correct, but I really like Jallanite's insertion in there. If we were to remove it to somewhere else, where would it be? Would we try to use it as the basis for another chapter perhaps?
I rather like it as well. But my objection to the use of that poem here is this. If there is a "canonical fact" about the poem, it is that the poem is the beginning of the Lay of Earendil, not that it was a song sung at the festival. In other words, by using the poem here, we are essentially making up a fact about Middle-earth - and one that is explicitly false if we accept CT's conjecture. It's a minor point, but we would actually be altering an established canonical fact out of a personal preference for having the poem there.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
What about the Following arrangement: We tell the history of the fugitives of Gondolin up to the festival of memorial held in Nan-Tathren. (Without the two songs.) Then we end the chapter "Tour and the Fall of Gondolin".
The Chapter about Eärendil (however we will name it) would start with the revised poem "Lay of Eärendel". (For this we would need a kind of introduction. Which is the difficulty of this arrangement.) Thus the poem would stand in its right position as the introduction of the story of Eärendil. Since the poem ends in Nan-Tathren we could go on with the rest of FoG, with the addition of the "Horns of Ylmir".

Fog is already a very substantial chapter, while we would have some difficulty to find material for the Eärendil chapter (as was said before).
I have said it before: there is a big problem in the shift in depth between FoG and Earendil, and one for which there is no quick fix. I see the point of your idea, Findegil, but I don't think it solves the problem. It would only trade a little bit of the imbalance between the two chapters for a little bit of an imbalance within the Earendil chapter.

Personally, I'd rather go with the chapter break used in Q30 - where "Earendil" begins with "Yet by Sirion . . .", the dwellings of the exiles at the havens.
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Old 01-25-2004, 10:54 AM   #9
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I agree with both of your point about the "Horns of Ylmir":
Why should sea music not be subtle? I faintly remember a passage of Tolkien were Ulmo is described as the Dweller in the deep that makes subtle music. But I could find it. But I think subtle is as good as description of sea music as ringing.

I agree that "too - dew" is not a good rhyming-couple. But I can't think of any better alternative in the moment.

My main point for the arrangement was exactly what you put in as argument against the use of "Lay of Eärendil": It would not be used at the festival but as the start of the Lay of Eärendil which we would quote in it right position.
The other point is only an additional one.

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<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:17 PM January 25, 2004: Message edited by: Findegil ]
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Old 01-28-2004, 09:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil
I have said it before: there is a big problem in the shift in depth between FoG and Earendil, and one for which there is no quick fix. I see the point of your idea, Findegil, but I don't think it solves the problem. It would only trade a little bit of the imbalance between the two chapters for a little bit of an imbalance within the Earendil chapter.
I think that we can all agree that there is probably no easy way to pass from the Fog to Eärendil chapter. The more that I read Findegil's suggestion, the more I like it. It includes your concern about the correct usage of the Lay of Eärendil.
Can you clarify me your position regarding the suggestion as to using the Quenta version to end Fog?
Would it end in parragraph 125?

Regarding the change to the poems, I'm ok with going back to subtly.
The other one, I would like to have others opinions on that.
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Old 01-28-2004, 09:54 PM   #11
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Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
Can you clarify me your position regarding the suggestion as to using the Quenta version to end Fog?
I meant that we follow the chapter break from Q30 - so the Earendil chapter would begin with our FG-C-28: "Yet by Sirion there grew up an elven folk, the gleanings of Gondolin and Doriath . . ."

My reasoning is that this is where Tolkien placed the chapter break in the what turned out to be the last version that has that particular chapter break.

I do see the point about being able to include the fragment of the Lay, however. Yet I'm hesitant to start Earendil earlier than Tolkien intended just so that we can justify the inclusion of the poem.
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Old 01-29-2004, 08:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Posted by Aiwendil
My reasoning is that this is where Tolkien placed the chapter break in the what turned out to be the last version that has that particular chapter break.

I do see the point about being able to include the fragment of the Lay, however. Yet I'm hesitant to start Earendil earlier than Tolkien intended just so that we can justify the inclusion of the poem.
I, of course, understand and agree with your justification of the ending of the Fog and the beginning of the Eärendil chapter but it would be a great tragedy for me not to include the Lay of Eärendel in our version of the work.
Are you certain that there is a compromise that we can live with?
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Old 01-30-2004, 06:26 AM   #13
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I think we should not overmuch discuss this special topic, as long as we are not working on the story of Eärendil.

May be we should in the moment take the chapter break as Aiwendil suggested and execlud the Lay of Eärendel. The work that was already done on the lay will not be lost. What ever we do know, when we start to compile the story of Eärendil, we have to reconcile it with the end of FoG anyway. So if we ever get there we will see what we need to make a good chapter about Eärendil. Also with both texts at least sketched it is much easier to decised on the right point for a chapter break.

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Old 01-31-2004, 09:41 AM   #14
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Some of you may know that Maédhros has PMed me, asking for comments on the revisions to the two poems The Lay of Eärendil and The Horns of Ylmir. Apparently my observations bear posting, so here they are. Sorry if I'm breaking the correct order of things here.

I've had a chance to read through those poems and the alterations. Before I go through them I ought to say that although I appreciate what the group are trying to achieve, I really think that the poems should be excluded if they won't fit without amendment. The Horns of Ylmir particularly relies on the juxtaposition of the soft, sweet Land of Willows and the hard, bitter shore for its main effect, and although changing the tense of the last stanza preserves this to some extent, it is still very much weakened and the symmetry of the work destroyed by the loss of the opening lines. In any case I found the sensation of a wild dream brought on by Ylmir's music to be much more powerful than the sense of actually being by the sea.

The changes to the Lay of Eärendil are much more supportable, but all the same there are places where the amendments do detract from the power of the verse. I would rather see it excluded than weakened.

Having said that, here are my comments:

Fall of Gondolin: Lay of Eärendil

FG-LE-01: Agreed. Tolkien's substituted line is far better.

FG-LE-02: Although 'Tuor' is the later name, it adds an inconvenient extra syllable to the line. From a purely poetic standpoint, the original name should be kept if it preserves the correct fall of the line.

FG-LE-03: Agreed.

FG-LE-04: A cleft is by definition cloven: Tolkien would never be so clumsy. I suggest 'in the cliffs was cloven, Cirith Thoronath'

FG-LE-05: Agreed.

FG-LE-06: Linguistics aside, 'Thornsir' is better. 'Thoronhir' has an additional syllable that spoils the fall of the line. I suggest perhaps a poetic abbreviation, e.g. 'Thor'nhir'. However ancient poetry often gives many versions of names ('Wawen' is given for 'Gawain' throughout Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in its original form).

FG-LE-07: If the chronology must change in line with later developments, I suggest 'thwarted moons'. I would say 'thirsty moons' but the repetition would be unforgivable.

FG-LE-08: 'High Gods' to 'high Powers' doesn't work since it adds an extraneous syllable. I suggest 'high lords', since Tolkien does refer to the Valar elsewhere as 'the lords of the West'. However, all concerns about the use of 'Gods' for the Valar seems verging on pedantry. The poet's knowledge is not necessarily Tolkien's, and are we even sure that he was an Elf?

FG-LE-09: This seems to work

FG-LE-10: In defiance of CJRT I think that 'there' is more likely. The repetition of this word adds weight and symmetry to the line and fits the sense better than 'then'

FG-LE-11: I would suggest rather 'drenched there their feet', since this would have the right number of syllables. Also we have a precedent for the poetic repetition of 'there'.

Fall of Gondolin - The Horns of Ylmir

FG-HY-01: If the first four lines are dropped, then the entire stanza might as well go. A two-line stanza would stick out like a sore thumb, spoiling the overall rhythm of the piece and in any case the remaining lines make little sense without their predecessors.

FG-HY-02: I don't see why 'subtly' has to go. If this line must be included (see above) I suggest 'Ocean musics subtly magic that those waves alone could weave' since it alliterates nicely and Tolkien was fond of alliteration.

The second amendment must be if it must be. As I said this poem's amendment spoils it however well it's done.

I think that 'he blew a single, piercing note' would be better than 'he blew one long and piercing note'.

FG-HY-03: I fail to see what's wrong with Tolkien's line (in my edition 'Till the tides went out, and the Wind died, and did all sea musics cease')

Why remove 'lo!'? I know it sounds melodramatic but there's little need to excise it.

'And the meadows {were} [are] about me {where} [with] the weeping willows {grew} [too]': The end of this line is very weak. I doubt very much that Tolkien would use 'with the weeping willows too' and I would prefer a more substantial alteration. My first thought was 'and the willows weep anew', reinforcing a sense of bereavement that comes from the loss of the sea-vision (or in the revised version the return to Nan-Tathren).

I must stress again that tampering with Tolkien's verse is at best ill-advised. He was after all a professional tutor of English language, and if he used a particular word then there was a good reason for it. It's particularly important to preserve the metre, which in Tolkien's poetry is extremely strict (the alliterative form is completely inflexible in any case). Most of the more substantial alterations (particularly to The Horns of Ylmir - see above) in some way detract from the poem, and I for one don't want to see Tolkien's verse watered down when people already think him a poor poet. Although I think that my suggested amendments might help, I still think that it would be kinder to the verses and to Tolkien himself simply to leave them out completely rather than to chop them around to make them fit his later writings. I'm sorry if that view performs its ablutions on anyone's fireworks, but I thought it best that you know my editorial stance.

Enough about poetry. Although my tone above may be a bit severe, I was very flattered to be invited to comment. I've been staying well away from the revised Silmarillion because I've not read through my HoME properly yet, so for my opinion to be considered worth having is a nice surprise. I make no claim to be a great versifier, and I'm certainly not the most informed person when it comes to Tolkien, but I hope my comments have been useful.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:09 AM January 31, 2004: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]
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Old 01-31-2004, 09:25 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Enough about poetry. Although my tone above may be a bit severe, I was very flattered to be invited to comment. I've been staying well away from the revised Silmarillion because I've not read through my HoME properly yet, so for my opinion to be considered worth having is a nice surprise. I make no claim to be a great versifier, and I'm certainly not the most informed person when it comes to Tolkien, but I hope my comments have been useful.
Your comments were more helpful than I thought possible. I'm hopeful that you will continue to post and I'm eager to see your recomendations in the other parts that we have worked on.
Your suggestions for the enmedations for the Poems to me at least seems very good, but it is your first comment that made me think about the usage of the Poems.
Quote:
Originally posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
I've had a chance to read through those poems and the alterations. Before I go through them I ought to say that although I appreciate what the group are trying to achieve, I really think that the poems should be excluded if they won't fit without amendment. The Horns of Ylmir particularly relies on the juxtaposition of the soft, sweet Land of Willows and the hard, bitter shore for its main effect, and although changing the tense of the last stanza preserves this to some extent, it is still very much weakened and the symmetry of the work destroyed by the loss of the opening lines. In any case I found the sensation of a wild dream brought on by Ylmir's music to be much more powerful than the sense of actually being by the sea.
I'm of the opinion that it would be a shame indeed not to include those Poems in our work, however the idea that our enmedations do water down the work of Tolkien is an idea that I had not considered as a factor. I wonder perhaps Squatter if there is a way in which the Poems could be altered in a way as to preserve them in our works. Now that jallanite is no longer here, I think that either you or Aiwendil must be the ones who would have the chance to do that.
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Old 02-01-2004, 09:55 AM   #16
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First of all, The Squatter of Amon Rûdh, I also like to express my appreciation of your comments. It is always very helpful to hear the comments of someone who is not so much involved in the project. Also since I am fare from being an expert in English poetry, I fell deeply under qualified to meddle with Tolkien’s poems. So the comments of some one more at home in this field are very much needed.

Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh:
Quote:
I've had a chance to read through those poems and the alterations. Before I go through them I ought to say that although I appreciate what the group are trying to achieve, I really think that the poems should be excluded if they won't fit without amendment.
That would mean to skip out all the content of the "The Lays of Beleriand". It might be that we have to do that, but I hesitate to agree completely with you. Nevertheless in view of the two particular poems under discussion it might be the solution. The much longer lays might be dealt with more freely, as we couldn't use them completely anyway.

Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh:
Quote:
The Horns of Ylmir particularly relies on the juxtaposition of the soft, sweet Land of Willows and the hard, bitter shore for its main effect, and although changing the tense of the last stanza preserves this to some extent, it is still very much weakened and the symmetry of the work destroyed by the loss of the opening lines. In any case I found the sensation of a wild dream brought on by Ylmir's music to be much more powerful than the sense of actually being by the sea.
Sad as it is, I strongly fell that you are right in this point. But I see a small chance to avoid that: What if we take the poem more like it is and assume that Tuor had such a sea vision during the stay of the fugitives in Nan Tathren? I will try that plot out at once:

§ 123 {Here they abode very long indeed, and Eärendil was a grown boy ere} [There, when spring set celandine in the meads {and they had held}, they made a sad {festival in memorial}feast in the memory of Gondolin and those that had perished, fair maidens, wives, and warriors and their king; but for Glorfindel the well-beloved many and sweet were the songs they sang. And there Tuor in song spoke to Eärendil his son of{ the coming of Ulmo aforetime,} the sea-vision in the midst of the land [that the]{The} voice of Ulmo's conches [reawakened in his]{drew the} heart{ of Tuor,}[.]

Insertion of the Horns of Ylmir FG-C-22

[With] that his sea-longing returned with a thirst the deeper for years of stifling{;}[, in his heart and in his son's. Wherefore] {and all that host} [the most part of the people] arose at his bidding, and {got them} [they {removed} journeyed] FG-C-23 down Sirion to the Sea.

This plot would make most of the emendations in the poem unnecessary. But the change in the storyline is risky and might not be worth the inclusion of the poem.

The inclusion of The Lay of Eärendel we have already doubted our self. And I think that what Aiwendil put forward as an argument against it was the same as you felt put in other words. Equally in which position we put that poem, it is a repetition of the story told just before. So it has no value in view of the story. If we include it the reason can only be twofold: A dear need for details in the Story of Eärendil and our own appreciation of the poem. Both reason are valid in my opinion, and the first one is the stronger. So if we are to include it, it should stand in its right position at the beginning of the Eärendil chapter.

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Old 02-01-2004, 09:14 PM   #17
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It's good to see you here, Squatter - and thanks for your comments. I too would be very pleased to see you continue to post here.

You make first of all a very good point about the problems with altering the poems. In fact, this is a special case of a major problem that concerns the whole project: the problem of changing what Tolkien wrote. Certainly the alteration of his exact words is of greater import when we are dealing with poetry than when with prose, but I think that the fundamental problem is the same.

And yet, we alter Tolkien's prose quite a bit. It would seem that we think we have some justification for doing that, so that the benefits of altering the writing at certain points outweigh the costs. Indeed, this is a premise necessary for the project to proceed at all.

The question, then, is not whether altering the poems will be to their detriment - the question is whether the damage done will exceed the benefit gained.

Of course, that's a very difficult question. But I'm far from convinced that the sort of damage we are doing to the poems is of altogether a different or greater kind than that which we tolerate to the prose (Tolkien was just as far beyond any of us in his prose as he was in his poetry). You cite, for example, the loss of symmetry in the Horns of Ylmir. But we must constantly put up with the loss of certain elements like that in the prose. This is a particularly vivid case, since we are quite directly forced to lose the symmetry as a result of changes Tolkien made in the plot. If Tuor in fact did sing this song to Earendil, it would not have had that symmetry.

Regarding the Lay of Earendil: In several places, you comment on the addition of a syllable ruining the line; and you say that "the alliterative form is completely inflexible in any case". I'm not entirely certain I agree on these points. Is not alliterative verse significantly more free with regard to the exact number and placement of syllables than is modern, metrical verse (particularly when the added syllables are unstressed)? I am aware of the Sievers classifications and all that, but have not had time to examine our changes with reference to them. But I believed that the system was flexible enough to allow the changes.

Other than that:
FG-LE-04: I'm not entirely convinced that "the cleft was cloven" is inadmissable, but I like your line. We might as well go with it.

FG-LE-07: In what sense were the moons thwarted? I would rather go with "thwarting mazes" in this case than attempt to salvage "moons" with a suspect metaphor.

FG-LE-08: Well, Tolkien seemed quite intent on expunging all use of the word "gods" for the Valar. This does not mean that it is completely unacceptable to retain the word, but it does mean that unless there is a very good reason to retain it, it should go.

FG-LE-10: I must agree. "Then" doesn't even make much sense grammatically.

FG-LE-11: I'm not certain that a fourth syllable is required in the half-line, but I agree that it would work better that way. Perhaps "drenched then their feet" - which avoids the repetition "there their".

FG-HY-01: I'll have to think about this. You do seem to have a point.

FG-HY-01: I like your suggestion "Ocean musics subtly magic that those waves alone could weave" as it retains the "alone could weave".

As for "he blew a single, piercing note' vs. 'he blew one long and piercing note', I don't think the decision is of all that much consequence; the difference is minute. I suppose we might go with your suggestion.

FG-HY-03: I think that the emendation must be in error - in any case, the line we want is that which you quoted.

I think jallanite removed "lo!" not because it was melodramatic but because he wished to emphasize the flash-forward from Tuor's vision to the present. I think there is a little to be gained in connection with this by using "now" rather than "lo!"; but I suppose it might not be sufficient to warrant the change.

I agree of course that ending the line with "too" is weak - that has been my main complaint against the emendations. I think that "the willows weep anew" is good in itself, but I'm not sure it makes all that much sense in the revised version, where Tuor has never been to Nan-tathren before. I suppose it might still work, however, since in a sense he has just left Nan-tathren via his poem, and is now returning.

Well, we must now consider both the specific changes discussed and the whole question of including altered forms of Tolkien's verse.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
This plot would make most of the emendations in the poem unnecessary. But the change in the storyline is risky and might not be worth the inclusion of the poem.
Yes - the change is very risky, for it invents a new, second vision for Tuor. It's a clever idea, but I don't think we can go with it.

Another thought that came to me is that we might try to alter the beginning of the poem in the same way that we altered the end - that is, have Tuor refer to the present at the beginning of the poem, then describe his sea-vision of long ago, then return to the present. But this would be very difficult, and, offhand, I'd say it looks impossible to accomplish.

Quote:
And I think that what Aiwendil put forward as an argument against it was the same as you felt put in other words.
Actually (and this is just nitpicking) I think my argument is of a different nature. My argument is that it is a "canonical" fact that this particular poem is the beginning of the Lay of Earendil; it would therefore be false to say that it was a song sung at the festival.
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Old 02-02-2004, 07:38 AM   #18
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Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Actually (and this is just nitpicking) I think my argument is of a different nature. My argument is that it is a "canonical" fact that this particular poem is the beginning of the Lay of Earendil; it would therefore be false to say that it was a song sung at the festival.
Agreed, agreed. Don't nitpick further with me. At least the reasons go confirm.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Yes - the change is very risky, for it invents a new, second vision for Tuor. It's a clever idea, but I don't think we can go with it.
Hm, why did I knew that you would say somethink like that? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I only posted it get some idea running. I think it is better to jump forward and than sneak back if the direction was wrong than to sit tight until the right direction is pionted at from heaven.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
Another thought that came to me is that we might try to alter the beginning of the poem in the same way that we altered the end - that is, have Tuor refer to the present at the beginning of the poem, then describe his sea-vision of long ago, then return to the present. But this would be very difficult, and, offhand, I'd say it looks impossible to accomplish.
I like that idea. And I don't think, it is impossibble. But it is difficult, especialy the tarnsition to the vision in Neverast.

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Old 02-03-2004, 02:53 PM   #19
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Firstly I'd like to thank those who have replied for the welcome. You would have been quite within your rights to be offended at some Johnny-come-lately pulling to pieces the result of months of work. I'm not sure how much of a contribution I'll be able to make, since I don't have a lot of time on my hands, and in any case don't really know enough to make informed comments on many aspects of the project. However, I'll stick my oar in where it's long enough to make it worth everyone's while.
Quote:
That would mean to skip out all the content of the "The Lays of Beleriand". It might be that we have to do that, but I hesitate to agree completely with you. Nevertheless in view of the two particular poems under discussion it might be the solution. The much longer lays might be dealt with more freely, as we couldn't use them completely anyway.
I've been thinking about this issue lately, and I think I may have a solution. It seems to me that an amalgam of poetry and prose might not flow as well as would be desirable, so I think that it might be interesting to consider treating the Lays as a divergent mythical tradition along the lines of the Pelagian, Orphic and Homeric creation myths in natural mythology. By treating them as completely separate sections of the work and taking up Tolkien's latest amendments they could retain their more poetic qualities without interfering with the continuity of the prose. Alterations to names could be considered on their merits as has clearly been done heretofore in any case. If it then seemed desirable to insert brief passages from them into the prose sections where they give details not elaborated on elsewhere (and where they agree with the primary tradition), this could be done without large sections being discarded from the overall work. I'll leave off there, since it's a subject for another thread, and is in any case getting ahead of matters.

I agree with you, Aiwendil, that the problems presented by changes to the verse are present in prose revisions as well, but it seems to me that the very nature of poetry is what brings it so starkly into relief in the examples above. A poem is a highly structured piece of writing, designed to evoke a very specific emotional response. If that response is changed or even lost it can change a great poem into some catchy verses, and what worries me about the alterations to The Horns of Ylmir is that they will do just that, with the addition only of a verse version of a scene that is described in detail elsewhere in a more up-to-date prose form. Although it would be nice to hear Tuor's exact song, the poem given above is clearly not it, since as you so rightly point out it simply did not happen that way. To my mind the only way around this is to treat the poem as a version handed down orally among Men and thus adapted over the years to suit poets' own purposes. Since the revised Silmarillion is clearly supposed to be "a body and a whole entire" I can't see how that would be acceptable, so I'm against the inclusion of this poem at all. Of course this is not my project, so my opinion is really quite irrelevant to the proceedings.

I have only one comment regarding the counter-comments to my comments.

FG-LE-07: I've used 'thwarted moons' in the same sense as one might use 'weary days'. I've applied the forces imposing on the characters to the time in which this happens. Obviously the lack of an agent is not ideal, but this requires the least amendment to the text and preserves the same alliterative stress in the same place as Tolkien's original. Tolkien's translation of Beowulf contains a passage that reads:
Quote:
On went the hours: on
ocean afloat
under cliff was their craft.
Now climb blithely
brave man aboard; breakers
pounding
ground the shingle. Gleaming
harness
they hove to the bosom of the
bark, armour
with cunning forged then cast
her forth
to voyage triumphant,
valiant-timbered
fleet foam twisted.
I draw your attention to the last line, bearing in mind that it refers to the ship.

My comments about metre and the number of syllables were really in response to my feel for the rhythm that Tolkien was adopting in these pieces. The alliterative form is inflexible in that it demands alliteration on particular stresses, but once a particular rhythm has been adopted to break it even by a single syllable can spoil the fall of the piece. It seems to me that since Tolkien knew more about this than any of us, it would be preferable to preserve the rhythm as he wrote it. Then again, the verses could simply be collected into a separate appendix or chapter, in which case they would become works and entities in their own right, as they were written.

Anyway, this is holding up your final revisions. Don't let me do that. I have offered comments where I thought it might be useful, but there's no need to bandy words with me about an issue if you want to do things differently.
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Old 02-05-2004, 06:42 AM   #20
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Posted by Spuatter:
Quote:
Anyway, this is holding up your final revisions. Don't let me do that. I have offered comments where I thought it might be useful, but there's no need to bandy words with me about an issue if you want to do things differently.
I posted manly because, I didn't like that thsi is the last sentence in this thread. At least form my point of view you have not in any way hold up our final revisison. Exactly the countary is the case realy. Your input had brought an more activ phase. And it had stirred our minds and thus created new ideas.

Such an idea has just come to my mind, and I would like to share it: If we come in the ende to the conclusion that the two lays underdiscussion can't be used in the body of the text, we could poperbly give them (o´r et least The Horns of Yilmir) in full and unreviesed in the editorial appendix. In that way we can explain who the diverneces in the poems were created in a commentary to them. In text it self we could make a short foot note that guided the reader to the appendix for information about the poem.

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Old 02-05-2004, 09:24 PM   #21
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Question

The ending of our Fog chapter
I was wondering if our Fog chapter is going to end in parragraph § 125 or are we going to include the first parragraph in the Epilogue of Tuor's story
Quote:
{Ereinion} [Rodnor] Gil-galad son of Orodreth, who had escaped the fall of Nargothrond and come to Sirion's Mouth, was [named] King of the Noldor there. He was styled Gil-galad, Star of Radiance, because his helm and mail, and his shield overlaid with silver and set with a device of white stars, shone from afar like a star in sunlight or mooonlight and could be seen by Elvish eyes at a great distance if he stood upon a height. FG-C-27
I think that by putting aside the discussion about the Lays, we have finished our discussion of the Fog. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

On a side note, I was wondering how we are going to deal with the Gil-Galad affaire. If he is the King of the Ñoldor in the mouths of Sirion, how are we going to explain his rôle in the attacks of the sons of Fëanor?
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Old 02-13-2004, 12:34 AM   #22
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I would prefer not to nail down the exact division between Tuor and Earendil until we've at least started work on the Earendil chapter, and decided whether we intend to include the alliterative fragment in some form.

The issue of Gil-Galad in general needs some thought. As for his presence at the mouths of Sirion: the note from "The Parentage of Gil-Galad" used in FG-C-27 is a bit tricky. I'm not sure whether it constitutes a change from the older story (wherein he and Cirdan leave the havens and take up residence on Balar) or not. I am inclined to think that it does not, and that Gil-Galad still ends up on Balar with Cirdan - and the story proceeds as in Q30 and QS77. If that's so, then FG-C-27 may need to change.
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:04 PM   #23
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Two other unresolved issues:

The Elessar. Jallanite and I agreed that we should mention Idril's giving it to Earendil and that it would have to go in FG-C-31. But no one could find any way to do that.

The Oarni. I was never completely satisfied about retaining them, though I suppose that these days I lean a bit more in that direction. They seem a little bit out of place, and we could take their absence from all future writings as implicit evidence of their rejection. On the other hand, we've got a precedent for not doing that in our reversal on the mechanical dragon issue.
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:57 PM   #24
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I was reading the Celebrimbor thread in this forum and of the Elessar.
I'm of the opinion that:
1. Celebrimbor is a descendant of Fëanor, and with the bit that we have added from the Shibboleth, I can see no way that Turgon would have admitted him to Gondolin (even though had Celebrimbor had resigned his ancestry).
2. How would have Celebrimbor had reached Gondolin in the first place?
3. How would Celebrimbor had given the Elessar to Idril if not in Gondolin?
Mithadan posted a very insteresting solution but unfortunately it falls in the realm of Fan Fic.
4. Enerdhil was to be discarded by JRRT.

I wonder if we could do the following:
Remove the name of Enerdhil from the story and state that it was an ancient smith of Gondolin who made it, and it was given to Idril. Basically it is the same idea as that of Aiwendil but without the name of Enerdhil.

The Oarni, to me seems a bit of awkward in retaining them but we do have, as Aiwendil stated, a precedent with the Mechanical Monsters so I would say to keep them.
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Old 02-14-2004, 06:34 AM   #25
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It seems we are going straightforward into a discussion of the story of Eärendil. But why not? It is chapter as each other. (Okay, it is one of the harder ones, if not the hardest of all, but what's the matter?)

To the Elessar: I have also re-read the thread about it and I agree with Maedhros that Celebrimbor must be a descendant of Feanor since that is stated in the Lord of The Rings. And I see no way to get him to Gondolin and give the jewel to Idril. It is correct that Tolkien was not satisfied with the making of the first jewel by some one else. If Tolkien would have come back to the story after he changed Celebrimbor to a descendant of Feanor he would have found some other solution, but we can only work with what we have.
And what we have is the story of Enerdhil. In my view it fits very well with the Gondolin theme at all. Gondolin was a refuge of the greatest scientific and artificers among the Noldor as we learn from the presents of Pengolodh. And if we keep the story that the Elessar was made in Gondolin and given to Idirl by some one else that Celebrimbor, than I can't see any reason why we would not keep the Name Enerdhil for that jewel-smith. I think that we even should keep the friendship of Celebrimbor and Enerdhil, not naming were it took place.

At last we come to the Oarni. Yes we kept the mechanical monsters in FoG. But I provided some later sources were we got hinds of mechanical devices, which were used, in battles. I can't see in the moment anything like that for the Oarni. But I have not intensely look for it. So we my find such hinds. What is nearest to it in my mind in the moment is the naming of Goldberry as "the River-woman's daughter".

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Old 02-15-2004, 07:01 PM   #26
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Actually, I don't think it's necessary to come to a decision regarding Enerdhil/Celebrimbor quite yet (though of course, we might as well decide now). The difficulty I alluded to is that of actually manipulating the text in FG-C-31 so as to include Idril giving the Elessar to Earendil (which happens regardless of it's ancestry). The trouble is that there seems to be no good place to insert mention of this, nor, as far as I recall, a suitable sentence from UT.

About the Oarni: I cannot think of any later evidence that they were kept. On the other hand, as is stated in principle 7, we cannot simply get rid of something from the earlier sources because it is not found later; we must have a reason for getting rid of it - an explicit or implicit contradiction with the later texts.

Do we have such a contradiction with the Oarni? At first glance, I'd be tempted to say "yes" - they simply seem out of keeping with the later legends. But when I think about it further, this feeling goes away. Why should there not be sea-spirits living near the shore? Is that really any stranger or less coherent than evil spirits inhabiting wolves, or Huan being able to speak, or eagles being sentient?

So I guess I lean toward keeping the Oarni, unless a good case can be made against them.

However, I hesitate regarding the name. If I recall correctly, "Oarni" comes from the stem "Oar" which meant "sea". But, I believe, that later became "Ear". I think there's a good case for changing it to "Earni", if we decide to keep them.
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Old 02-15-2004, 10:20 PM   #27
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How about this for Idril giving the Elessar to Eärendil:

Quote:
In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him and Ulmo's conches far out west {over the sea} {call} [called] him louder and louder, and ever a longing for the deeps of the sea grew stronger in his heart. Wherefore he built a great ship Eärrámë, Sea-wing, with white sails. Ulmo beckoned to him at eve. One evening he {calls} [called] Eärendil and they {go} [went] to the shore. There {is a skiff} [was Eärámë]. {Tur} [Tuor and Idril] {bids} [bade] farwell to Eärendil and bid{s} him thrust it off <EL [and before they left Idril] said to Eärendil her son: “The Elessar I leave with thee{, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal}. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.” >{and with Idril} [They] set sail [(and some say Voronwë with them)] into the sunset and the West[.]
Regarding the Oarni:
From the Etymologies:
Quote:
AYAR-, AIR- sea, only used of the inner seas of Middle-earth. Q ear (earen) and aire (airen); N oear, oer. Cf. Earráme, a Q name = Wings of the Sea, name of Tuor’s ship. Belegoer ‘great sea’, name of Western Ocean between Beleriand and Valinor, Q Alataire (see ÁLAT).
My question is are we going to use a Sindarin or a Quenya name here.
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Old 02-16-2004, 02:18 AM   #28
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Why did you skip the ", for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal"?

Other wise it is more or less good. But I think we should delet "Ulmo beckoned to him at eve." It is a duplication of what we have said just before and in my view kills the flow of the passage.

Don't ask me about Oarni/Earni. I simply do not know.

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Old 02-16-2004, 03:46 PM   #29
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I suppose the tricky point is deciding whether "[and before they left Idril] . . ." is too great a liberty. This ties in with what I just said in the part 2 thread; I think that when Jallanite and I were looking at this (more than two years ago), such an insertion would have been considered too liberal.

But I suppose it can be justified under 6b.

I will think about this and get back to you.

Findegil wrote:
Quote:
But I think we should delet "Ulmo beckoned to him at eve." It is a duplication of what we have said just before and in my view kills the flow of the passage.
I'm not sure that I agree. What we have said just before is that, in a general, long-term sense, he has developed this sea-longing. The sentence at hand indicates a specific evening when Ulmo beckons to him.

But I do think that this sentence is partially redundant with the following sentence. I propose making it:

Quote:
Wherefore he built a great ship Eärrámë, Sea-wing, /*TE-D with white sails*/. /*TE-E One evening /*TE-D Ulmo beckoned to him/ [and] he {calls} [called] {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and they {go} [went] to the shore. There {is a skiff} [was Eärámë].
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Old 02-16-2004, 05:18 PM   #30
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I got that part from the following passage:
From Unfinished Tales: The Elessar
Quote:
This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast; and so it was saved from the burning of Gondolin. And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: "The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it."
What I proposed was:
Quote:
Ulmo beckoned to him at eve. One evening he {calls} [called] Eärendil and they {go} [went] to the shore. There {is a skiff} [was Eärámë]. {Tur} [Tuor and Idril] {bids} [bade] farwell to Eärendil and bid{s} him thrust it off <EL [and before they left Idril] said to Eärendil her son: “The Elessar I leave with thee{, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal}. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.” >
Originally posted by Aiwendil
Quote:
I suppose the tricky point is deciding whether "[and before they left Idril] . . ." is too great a liberty. This ties in with what I just said in the part 2 thread; I think that when Jallanite and I were looking at this (more than two years ago), such an insertion would have been considered too liberal.
From what I see from the Elessar essay in UT is that before Idril sailed she gave the Elessar to Eärendil. I think that one can reasonably suppose that Idril and Tuor were in the Eärámë, so looking at that I don't see it as that liberal. Certainly there are other things that I have proposed which have seemed to me more liberal.
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Old 02-16-2004, 05:28 PM   #31
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Ah; I'm sorry, I glanced too quickly at the emendation and thought that the element in square brackets was an entirely new editorial bridge.

I don't disagree at all about the fact that Idril gives the Elessar to Earendil before setting sail in Earrame; my concern was purely textual.

I think we can perhaps stay closer to the UT text, though. How about:

Quote:
Wherefore he built a great ship Eärrámë, Sea-wing, /*TE-D with white sails*/. /*TE-E One evening /*TE-D Ulmo beckoned to him/ [and] he {calls} [called] {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and they {go} [went] to the shore. There {is a skiff} [was Eärámë]. {Tur} [Tuor and Idril] {bids} [bade] farewell to Eärendil and {bids} [bade] him thrust it off <EL [and before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: “The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.” >
Like Findegil, I don't see the purpose of eliminating "for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal".
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Old 02-16-2004, 05:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Like Findegil, I don't see the purpose of eliminating "for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal".
This was my mistake actually, I thought that it was referring that the Elessar would heal the hurts to Middle-earth.
I like your suggestion better.
If Findegil ok with that, the thing that we are missing from part 5 is the Oarni - Earni the only issue missing?
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Old 02-16-2004, 06:37 PM   #33
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Yes, the question seems to be whether Oarni/Earni is Quenya or Sindarin.

I had assumed that "Oarni" was Qenya. It certainly looks more like Qenya than Gnomish. And though I don't have the Qenya Lexicon, in the index to the Qenya Lexicon I find "oar (n-)". So I think we can safely guess that it is Qenya.

I don't see any reason to change it to Sindarin, despite the possibility that that would allow us to retain "oar" rather than "ear". So I vote for a change to "Earni".
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Old 02-16-2004, 09:53 PM   #34
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From the Book of Lost Tales I: Appendix

Quote:
Ónen The root ’O’O in QL has derivatives Ô, a poetic word, 'the sea', oar 'child of the sea, merchild', oaris (-ts), oarwen 'mermaid', and Ossë; the name Ówen (antecedent of Ónen in the text, pp. 59, 80) also appears, and evidently means the same as oarwen (for -wen see Urwen). The later form Uinen in the Tales is apparently Gnomish; GL Únen 'Lady of the Sea', changed later to Uinen. A form Oinen also occurs (p. 238).
I agree with you that given that because of the Qenya Lexicon (QL) it is to be considered Quenya.
It if its to be kept in Quenya then I would also agree for it to be changed to Earni.
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Old 02-17-2004, 01:49 AM   #35
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Aiwendil, you had devoloped the passage in the right way. By making the Evening explicit it is much better. Ther is only on small point left: As we tell the story Eärendil had just before thrust of the Eärámë. In such a phrase "and" is in my feeling not the right word. It awakkes the picture of Idril gliding away with the ship und flinging the Stone ofer board so that Eärendil may catch it. What's about "but":
Quote:
Wherefore he built a great ship Eärrámë, Sea-wing, /*TE-D with white sails*/. /*TE-E One evening /*TE-D Ulmo beckoned to him/ [and] he {calls} [called] {Eärendel} [Eärendil] and they {go} [went] to the shore. There {is a skiff} [was Eärámë]. {Tur} [Tuor and Idril] {bids} [bade] farewell to Eärendil and {bids} [bade] him thrust it off [but ]<EL [before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil her son: “The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grievous hurts to Middle-earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.” >
In that form it looks like an after thought of the skrib not of the charachter.

Oarni/Earni I will have look into the Quenya Lexicon, but I don't think we will find much more than in the Apendix to LT.

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Old 02-17-2004, 11:18 AM   #36
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Good point, Findegil. I agree with your change.

I think that we can pretty safely say that "Oarni" is to be changed to "Earni". The remaining question, of course, is whether they are to be included at all.

As I said before, I think that based on principle 7, it's a matter of deciding whether there is enough implicit evidence from later texts that they were rejected.

Right now I don't see such evidence, though I'm rather hesitant.
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Old 02-17-2004, 09:21 PM   #37
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The Horns of Ulmo

Looking at this again, it seems to me that Jallanite's first line does not work (nor our slight modification to it).

Jallanite's version:
Quote:
{Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −}
[To sea musics ringing magic that the wind and wave can weave −]
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
Our latest proposal:
Quote:
{Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone could weave −}
[Ocean musics ringing magic that the waves alone can weave −]
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
In both cases, the first line is out of place (and ungrammatical) without the lines that go before and have been deleted:

Quote:
{It was in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green −
I was fingering my harp-strings, for a wind had crept unseen
And was speaking in tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
Were whispering reedy whispers as the sunset touched the meads,}
This is because the first line, "Inland musics subtly magic . . ." is an appositive describing the "voices of the reeds".

I'm inclined, then, to say that the conservative emendation would be to delete those two lines and begin with:

Quote:
In the twilight {by the river on} [on the sea-strand through] a hollow thing of shell
However, I've been thinking about Squatter's criticism that we lose the symmetry of the poem by deleting those lines; and I think that it's a very good point. I have been contemplating the possibility of doing the same for the opening lines as Jallanite did for the closing lines: converting them to present tense, so that the poem begins with Tuor describing his present situation, which is followed by a flashback to his vision in Nevrast before returning to the present.

There are two difficult points with regard to that idea. The first is that a straight substitution of present tense verbs for past tense comes across as rather awkward. The second is that we then require some kind of transition to signal the beginning of the flashback.

Here's the first thing I came up with; it's (by necessity) rather risky, I think:

Quote:
{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green −
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads,
{Inland musics subtly magic} [But my heart recalleth sea musics] that {those} [the] {reeds} [waves] alone {could} [can] weave −}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
Comments, by line number:
1 - I changed "'Twas" to "Here" rather than to "'Tis" simply because "'Tis in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green" sounds awkward and less likely a line.
2 - The same goes for "was" to "sit" rather than to "is".
4 - The problem in this line is that "touches" is more syllables than "touched" and thus ruins the meter. "Hits" was all I could think of at the moment that conveys something like the right meaning while maintaining the meter - but of course it's not exactly the right meaning. Perhaps there's something better.
5 - This was the real hard part. The only way I could think of to make the transition to the flashback was to have him compare the "voices of the reeds" in the present to the "sea musics" in Nevrast. I could think of no way to accomplish this save to delete the "subtly magic" and use the rhythmic space to insert the totally fabricated "But my heart recalleth". The new line technically fits the meter but doesn't fit nearly as nicely as the original line. Still, it the meter of this particular poem does tend to be a bit free and I think that the proposed line is passable.

There may be other ways of accomplishing the same thing. One idea would be to have the "music" of line 5 remain "inland music", describing the voices of the reeds as in the original, and then somehow begin the flashback in line 6. I'm not sure exactly how that would be done, though.

So, we would appear to have three options:

1. Delete the poem
2. Use the conservative emendations, which lose the original symmetry
3. Use more liberal emendations to preserve the symmetry

I think that the only way of accomplishing number 2 is what I proposed above - deleting the whole beginning and starting with "In the twilight on the sea-strand . . ."

For number 3, we have my proposal as an example, though others are certainly possible.
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Old 02-17-2004, 10:29 PM   #38
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Tolkien

Quote:
Originally posted by Aiwendil
As I said before, I think that based on principle 7, it's a matter of deciding whether there is enough implicit evidence from later texts that they were rejected.
You bring a very interesting point Aiwendil. There is a lot of things in the Lost Tales that although not mentioned later, were by no means necessarily rejected by JRRT.
From the Book of Lost Tales I: Foreworld
Quote:
But these old manuscripts are by no means of interest only for the study of origins. Much is to be found there that my father never (so far as one can tell) expressly rejected, and it is to be remembered that 'The Silmarillion', from the 1926 'Sketch' onwards, was written as an abridgement or epitome, giving the substance of much longer works (whether existing in fact, or not) in a smaller compass.
I wonder if we go and use the "Oarni/Earni", does that gives us the liberty to use other parts of the Tales which have not been expressly rejected by JRRT but only discontinued.
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Old 02-18-2004, 03:15 PM   #39
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1. Oarni: I have look that up in the Quenya lexicon but it did not add any information to the entry in the Appendix of LT1 given by Maédhros.
I agree to change it to Earni if we keep it. As said before I see more evidence that such "fantastic" elements could be kept that for deleting the Earni. So I vote for keeping them in. If we later discover any reason against that we could still come back to the case and work on the passage again.
So we agree upon this point.

2. The Horns of Ylmir: I am strongly inclined against your possibility 2. I think we have either to move the poem to the editorial appendix or to edit it so that we are at least satisfied with the complete result and I can't see how we can do that is we lose the intro.
Your emendations are not so bad. When we first discussed the idea I tried to do the same my self, but I came not very fare with it. I will provide the thoughts that I had:
Line 1:
Quote:
{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green −
"Here" does not alliterate with the line. I am not sure if that is needed, but I thought it would be nice to alliterate. I thought of
Quote:
{'Twas} [I wander] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green −
Since that adds some new meaning it is to risky.
Line 2:
Quote:
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
That was the line I have get no solution for that was good. But following your example and my line 1 I would think that "walk" will go. I was not sure if we should change the second half-line at all. We can assume that the wind had already crept and inspired the Song and stopped when the poem is made.
Quote:
I {was} [walk] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind had crept unseen
Line 3 & 4:
Quote:
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads,
At least we should right the "are" as "Are" since it is the start of the line. As said before I think we could leave the wind in past tense.
Quote:
And was speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
Were whispering reedy whispers as the sunset touched the meads,
Line 5:
Quote:
{Inland musics subtly magic} [But my heart recalleth sea musics] that {those} [the] {reeds} [waves] alone {could} [can] weave −}
That is the hard part as you said. Your line is good in it self. But it is as if you swept of the old one and made a new. I have no better solution but I am not sure if we could not bear the break if this line is unchanged from the original?
Line 6:
Quote:
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
We cannot avoid to change that line. So I think we should make the transition here if possible. My solution is not good, and can do not much more than illustrating the idea.
Quote:
{It was}[I wander] in the Land of Willows {recalling} that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
I hope this will not be the best we can get, other wise I think we have to delete the poem form the main text. But may be it will stir some better ideas.

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Old 02-18-2004, 05:11 PM   #40
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So we have a vote against the conservative emendations. I'm certainly sympathetic to that.

All quotes are from Findegil's last post.

Line 1:
Quote:
"Here" does not alliterate with the line. I am not sure if that is needed, but I thought it would be nice to alliterate.
Nor does the original "'Twas". Sometimes, alliteration is used as an extra device in this kind of verse (a few times in the poem), but it is not a required element of the structure, as it is in alliterative verse, and it is fine to have a line without it. Your line - "I wander . . ." is good enough in itself, but as you say, it adds new meaning. Also, my impression is that Tuor is singing this song to Earendil - so it seems improbable that he is wandering about.

Line 2:
Quote:
But following your example and my line 1 I would think that "walk" will go.
I'm hesitant about this for the same reason - if he's singing to Earendil, I don't know whether it's good to say that he's walking around. The trouble is that whatever word we substitute for "was" (aside from the clumsy "am"), we will be inventing some action. I tried to think of the most innocuous action I could invent, and it was sitting. Of course he could have been walking - which throws the whole thing into doubt; are we justified in inventing the detail that he was sitting, or that he was walking, however minor it may be?

If it's simply a matter of "sit" vs. "walk", though, I'd tend toward "sit".

Quote:
I was not sure if we should change the second half-line at all. We can assume that the wind had already crept and inspired the Song and stopped when the poem is made.
I think we have to change "had" to "has", because it has to agree with the tense of the previous verb ("sit" or "walk"). If we used the pluperfect ("had") we would need to have specified some past time before which the wind had crept.

Lines 3 and 4:
Quote:
At least we should right the "are" as "Are" since it is the start of the line.
You're right; I'd missed that.

Quote:
As said before I think we could leave the wind in past tense.
I'm not so sure about that. I really think that we need "has" instead of "had", for the reasons I gave above. But after the perfect ("has") the past tense does not work here. What we would really need for your suggestion would be to change "for a wind had crept unseen" into a simple past tense rather than some form of perfect: "for a wind crept unseen"; but of course, then we lose the syllable "had" and ruin the meter.

Also, I think that if we use the past tense in the section that is supposed to be describing the present, we weaken the transition to the flashback.

Line 5:
Quote:
That is the hard part as you said. Your line is good in it self. But it is as if you swept of the old one and made a new.
Exactly the problem. I had to invent Tuor's recollection as a pivoting point from the present to the flashback, which added some syllables and forced the deletion of "subtly magic". I guess the central issue is whether "But my heart recalleth . . ." is too liberal an addition. I'm not sure whether I think it is or not. It's certainly risky enough to give me pause, but it's not quite risky enough for me to reject it outright.

Quote:
I have no better solution but I am not sure if we could not bear the break if this line is unchanged from the original?
You mean retain "Inland musics subtly magic . . ." and remain in the present until line 6? Yes, that's another option. One could simply leave that lines 5 and 6 as they are, as a sort of "natural" version - but that's not really satisfactory:

Quote:
Inland musics subtly magic that those reeds alone {could} [can] weave −
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
There the switch to the flashback comes out of nowhere and has no relation whatsoever to the previous lines. You suggest something along the lines of:

Quote:
{It was}[I wander] in the Land of Willows [recalling] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.
In other words, keep the "Inland musics . . ." line in the present tense and then re-work line 6 so as to accomplish the transition. I like your idea in principle. But your line has a foot too many - I realize it's only meant to indicate the general idea, but I'm not sure that the extra syllables will be easy to excise. I can't see any element of the line that could be removed (that's the advantage to making the transition in line 5 - "subtly magic" is a nice bit of detail but not essential to the meaning). The other problem here is that the transition, while not nearly as abrupt as in the "natural" version I mentioned above, is still a little sudden. It's nice to have the line "It was in the land of Nevrast . . ." if only because it spreads the transition out over an extra line and thus better orients the reader. But maybe improvements to this idea are possible.

I think, if I may say so, that my solution is at least elegant conceptually. Where it gets ugly is in the sheer magnitude of the fabrication needed (four words - that's a lot in this project!).

What do others think?

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