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Old 06-14-2005, 01:43 PM   #561
the guy who be short
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Don't worry Eomer, I'll have the majority of the first post written out before Friday, which should just leave PMing. Perhaps the biggest worry is if we do decide the Seer should dream on NIGHT 1, but I'll cross that barrier if and when I get to it.

Thanks for the advice. I've modded one game before, and was very careful about pronouns. However, perhaps even more embarassingly than you forgetting a Guardian, I forgot who the Seer was!

Luckily the experience means I'll be extremely organised this time round - honest.
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Old 06-14-2005, 01:49 PM   #562
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Quote:
Personally I don't think villagers should be able to trust each other.
Yeah, but up until such time as the villagers can actually win a game or two, I think our rule tinkering efforts need to tend toward their benefit. Eventually if the werewolves keep winning at this pace people are going to stop playing because the game is unbalanced, and that would be no fun.

Quote:
I think that they should still be allowed to ask questions about technicalities or other gameplaying aspects.
But how much of that has really been going on? And how necessary is it for people to be asking technical questions during the game anyway? It is not like the rules are really all that hard to understand. Although the cursed villager thing probably did need to be ironed out. My complaint is more about the friviolous chatting that seems to go on...

Quote:
Fellowship
-Rangers
-Bounders
-Blood-brothers
-or even Istari
Definitely not Istari (although the concept is certainly similar... )

You do remember who the Mirdain were, don't you?

I do like the idea that if there has to be a limit on discussion, perhaps the werewolves and the whatchamacallits (hey, there's a neat name) would do it during different cycles of the game.
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Old 06-14-2005, 01:54 PM   #563
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Tolkien *peers out from behind curtain...*

How many of these mason/ranger/fellowship/Mirdain people are we talking about? Would they have the same amount as the werewolves (3)?
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Old 06-14-2005, 01:58 PM   #564
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Only two, there are. No more, no less. A master and an apprentice.

Or at least that was always my understanding. I suppose it could be played with varying numbers...
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Old 06-14-2005, 02:39 PM   #565
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Know who the Mirdain were! Pah! Such condescension...of course I do, and that's why I was scrabbling for more "positive" nomenclature...

As soon as I have found someone to wield me, O Regal Dwarven Shade, you'll have a duel on your hands!
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Old 06-14-2005, 03:06 PM   #566
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Just checking. Never can tell. People will say virtually anything...
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Old 06-14-2005, 03:16 PM   #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esgallhugwen
Mormegil took my idea, I wanted to be an undertaker type character, oh well great minds think alike
I would gladly yield my position and become something more appropriate like the village idiot

Or I could simply be the person in charge of cleaning our streets of the mess left behind by horses, werewolves and what not.
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Old 06-14-2005, 03:24 PM   #568
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Some Time Changes

It's come to my attention that next Sunday is Father's Day. It's also the day of an exam for Celuien (I believe) and the date of an inescapable wedding for me. So:

Recruitment will carry on up until 6:00pm GMT (1:00pm EST, 12:00am Central) on Saturday 18th June.

If we decide the Seer should dream on the first night, the Seer will then receive his/her role and should PM me before the start of the game concerning who s/he wants to dream about.
If we decide the Seer shouldn't dream on the first night, s/he will received his/her role at the same time as everybody else at 4:00pm (11:00am EST, 10:00am Central) GMT on Monday 20th June.

The first DAY should then start at 6:00pm GMT (1:00pm EST, 12:00am Central) on Monday 20th June.

This should allow everybody to 1) participate in the game properly, 2) enjoy a nice Father's Day and 3) reacquaint themselves with all those quaint notions such as sleep and rest.
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Old 06-14-2005, 05:33 PM   #569
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Still can't play. I won't have regular internet access again until Tuesday.
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Old 06-14-2005, 07:50 PM   #570
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I don't know enough about Mirdain (or whatever but I like that name best) or letters and all the rest, but I will leap into the dark and say I'm the village butcher who loves to speak in doggerel. By the second day everybody'll want to lynch me for the doggerel instead of suspicion!

I like the Seer first night idea.

No dead people commentary on the original thread, makes sense to me.

I'm so new to this all that I don't think I could keep track of extras like special roles and letters and all that, so I'm going to vote "no" on all the other extras that have been mentioned.

Sorry.
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Old 06-14-2005, 07:54 PM   #571
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White-Hand Some thoughts ...

Although I can't play in the next game, I would like to participate in the future, so here are some thoughts on the ideas raised on rule changes etc.

I agree that, given the trend of our first three games, any rule changes should favour the Villagers. I am not sold on the Scribe idea, as he or she would be in no different position than any other normal Villager during the game, and so the death letter is just as likely to be wrong as it is right (if not more so), which might simply end up confusing the daytime discussions (which the innocent Villagers are perfectly capable of doing themselves, thank you ).

I like the Mason idea, since having two Villagers who trust each other and can bounce ideas off each other will go some way towards mitigating the Villagers' lack of knowledge (and therefore the random accusations). I agree that these players should only be able to PM each other during the day, whereas the Werewolves should only PM each other at night. I still think that the Werewolves are powerful enough wothout letting them coordinate efforts during the day too.

Does the name of the role have to be specifically Tolkien-orientated, given that the others are not? Something in keeping with the medaeval/folklore atmosphere of the game that suggests a connection between the two should suffice. Although all I can come up with at the moment is the "Twins". Or how about Tweedledum and Tweedledee?

I am edgy about killing people off for non-participation. At most, players should only be summarily killed if they don't post at all during a day without good excuse, rather than forcing them to make a positive assertion or to vote. Otherwise, this compromises the "quiet" strategy that worked so well in the last game. And there might be perfectly good game-related reasons (for both innocents and Wolves) for not voting on a day.

I agree that players should not post on this thread while playing the game, even to raise questions about the rules (which can be done by PM to the moderator). The reason that I posted a warning about this earlier in the thread was that I felt some posts were getting dangerously close to possibly influencing the game. I don't have a problem with people making a short post following their death (there is quite an urge to do so ), provided that they avoid giving any indication of their thoughts on who might be guilty or innocent. I think that people can be trusted to stick to this proviso.

Finally, someone mentioned the possibility of starting a thread to set out all the rules. I suggest that this is best addressed by the moderator including all the applicable rules in the first post for a game. This is probably best done by cutting and pasting rather than by giving links (as I did), since earlier rules can be superseded in subsequent games (such as the tied voting rule).
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Old 06-14-2005, 08:00 PM   #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morm
I would gladly yield my position and become something more appropriate like the village idiot
Bah! Now ye've taken my idea!

I really like the idea of the Masons/Elf-friends, and I'd be willing to play with the scribe/letters - although would we introduce both these roles/things in the same game?

One role that sounds really interesting is the Werehamster.

Quote:
Werehamster - This character is on its own side, fighting both the Werewolves and the humans. During the night phase, he has his own phase and can kill someone just like the Werewolves do, causing two deaths in one night. If the werewolves try to kill him, hes safe; but if the Seer points to him, he dies. The Werehamster wins only if he is the sole remaining person in a game.
This would work best in a larger game...though we'd have to call it the "Smagol" or something. Perhaps it could only kill on every other night. Though, most likely in another game.

And a question: say the Guardian protects person A. The Werewolves choose to kill person B, who happens to be the Hunter. If the Hunter has chosen person A as their intended target, is the Guardian able to protect person A from the Hunter? Or is the Guardian only effective against Werewolves?

Anyway - I'd like to sign up for the next game. And I'd like to be...the village idiot!
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Old 06-14-2005, 08:16 PM   #573
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Seems to me that if we're going to call the game "Tol-in-Gaurhoth", then we can call the two allies 'Elves', and they can do osanwe-kenta using PMs. After all, this is a Tolkien dedicated site, and the Legendarium is rife with names to pick from. .... that is, if there's a majority in favor of it.

I'd be interested to see if these characters seem "groupy" enough to get lynched by the innocent villagers, so maybe we don't want them to be Elves after all ... um ... unless we let whoever wants to be, be Elves? Maybe they could just be Dunedain? Rangers? Ah, heck, I dunno.

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Old 06-14-2005, 10:39 PM   #574
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Quote:
I don't have a problem with people making a short post following their death (there is quite an urge to do so
Yeah, but what is the point of this? Just to announce, "I'm dead." Anybody who cares already knows that. I think that sooner or later if this keeps up it is just bound to lead to trouble.

I think a goal for naming the masons/mirdain/whatchamacallits should be to have it as non-specific as possible. I mean honestly, do you think a character like mine is going to make a good elf or elf-friend. Just imagine the lynching...

The Hangman pulled the leaver. Kuruharan's body dropped down with a snap. Suddenly, Kuruharan grew two feet, lost his beard, his ears got all pointy, and he got nauseatingly pretty!! "Oh-no!! We've killed our Elf...Dwarf...thing," wailed the villagers.

That just doesn't sound good.

(Mutter, mutter...dumb pointy-ears...who needs 'em anyway?)

Maybe we should just call them "Lorekeepers" or something simple (and non-specific) like that.
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Old 06-14-2005, 10:47 PM   #575
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Eye

I want masons. Call them whatever you want.

I definitely want the seer to dream the first night.

As far as my role in the next game.... hmm... maybe I'll be an arrogant healer.
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Old 06-14-2005, 11:56 PM   #576
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I haven't heard from anyone else but I thought that the mason's wouldn't be named at death similar to the cursed villager. But just a thought.
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Old 06-15-2005, 12:37 AM   #577
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White-Hand *gasp, gasp, deep breath*

Can *wheeze* I *hack, cough* join?

Sorry. *deep breath* Had to run to get here.

And what role will you play.

Oh, as usual, when I play "Killers." The suspect.
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Old 06-15-2005, 06:40 AM   #578
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Quote:
I thought that the mason's wouldn't be named at death similar to the cursed villager.
The masons should be named at death. Otherwise, how do they establish their credibility with the villagers?
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Old 06-15-2005, 06:55 AM   #579
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Enlisting....

I want to play too, (again). I'd like to be the baker - fortune cookie maker.

Re: Seer first night idea: yep, I think the Seer should dream the first night

Re: Wolves Pm-ing each other only at night: yep, also agree with this.

Re: Masons/Elf-friends/Twins: mmhm, yeah, okay. Although...I can imagine how these people might draw suspicion upon themselves from the villagers for all the wrong reasons, thus complicating the matters further.

Re: killing people off for non-participation: I support this. In case this is too harsh, let it be at least killing off people who don't vote. Because it is very difficult to make an impression -guilty or nay- of someone who doesn't say anything.
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:00 AM   #580
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Surely the simplest solution is to let the seer, hunter and guardian know each other's identities and so work together to protect the villagers as the wolves work together to destroy them. That makes good and evil even at the start. And stops all this "What happens if the hunter takes down the guarded, cursed villager while the seer is dreaming about them type of hypothesis....
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:25 AM   #581
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I'm not entirely sold on the Scribe role for the same reasons as The Saucepan Man.

On the participation rule, I think that if someone suddenly disappears without notice, they should be a candidate for lynching, but I'm not comfortable with requiring a vote or specific type of post for the reason that it restricts strategy.

I like Mithalwen's idea of letting the seer, hunter and guardian work together.
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:50 AM   #582
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Quote:
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I want to play too, (again). I'd like to be the baker - fortune cookie maker
Cool! Now all we need is a candlestick maker.

I do like Mithalwen's idea, so I second that one.
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:08 AM   #583
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Mithalwen is in this game???? Ooooooh...I might have to enlist again after all....

*Fordim ponders*
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:30 AM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
Surely the simplest solution is to let the seer, hunter and guardian know each other's identities and so work together to protect the villagers as the wolves work together to destroy them.
But wouldn't this tip the balance the other way? Three Villagers who know each other to be innocent, can discuss their thoughts and have other special abilities which they can co-ordinate seems to be giving the Villagers too much power. If the Seer was to identify a Werewolf early on, the Hunter would be guaranteed a Werewolf kill when he or she dies, which rather takes half the fun out of it.

I prefer the idea of two separate players being the Masons/Elf-friends/Twins, since this will provide some benefit to the Villlagers, but not enough to tip the balance against the Werewolves. It will also give a greater number of players an additional role, which I see as a plus.
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:33 AM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the phantom
As far as my role in the next game.... hmm... maybe I'll be an arrogant healer.
Hey, that role sounds familiar. I think I remember playing that part in game two.

Anywho, I want in. Now that I'm back (for those who didn't know, I was away), I'm done with work, and I'm looking at quite a lot more free time... Yeah.

My part shall be that of the mysterious artist who prefers silently sketching in corners to hanging out with the rest of the village.
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:35 AM   #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
But wouldn't this tip the balance the other way? Three Villagers who know each other to be innocent, can discuss their thoughts and have other special abilities which they can co-ordinate seems to be giving the Villagers too much power. If the Seer was to identify a Werewolf early on, the Hunter would be guaranteed a Werewolf kill when he or she dies, which rather takes half the fun out of it.

I prefer the idea of two separate players being the Masons/Elf-friends/Twins, since this will provide some benefit to the Villlagers, but not enough to tip the balance against the Werewolves. It will also give a greater number of players an additional role, which I see as a plus.
I agree plus with the guardian knowing who the seer is puts the seer at substantially less risk. There needs to be that risk to make it interesting.
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:50 AM   #587
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Boots Lots of players!

the guy who be short
Azaelia of Willowbottom
littlemanpoet
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Anguirel
Saurreg
mormegil
Lalaith
Celuien
the phantom
Esgallhugwen
Oddwen
Nilpaurion Felagund
Evisse the Blue
Feanor of the Peredhil

Mithalwen (I think)
Fordim (?)
Kuru (really wants to play but perhaps cannot?)


I think it's 15 definites so far. Verily, a grand feast could be made!

As for roles, I shall be a sea-faring rapscallion.
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:56 AM   #588
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Request: before the next round starts, can we have a compilation post on all the different character status agreed upon and the way they are supposed to be played? I for one would not like to break a rule unwittingly or be set upon by equally misguided fellow players.
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Old 06-15-2005, 10:03 AM   #589
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I'm on your side here Saurreg. These new roles and rules are making my head spin!

Maybe I'm just not bored enough by the game as it is.
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Old 06-15-2005, 10:04 AM   #590
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Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Thumbs up

*Violently gets the attention of Eomer*

Did I not ask to be included?

I'm going to go and live in a little cave for a few years... It's all youre fault!
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Old 06-15-2005, 10:07 AM   #591
Eomer of the Rohirrim
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Boots

I noticed a post but I didn't see an offer of play, you violent so-and-so. Maybe I didn't look far back enough.

Don't mock my list, I was only trying to help!

*sobs*
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Old 06-15-2005, 10:09 AM   #592
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Quote:
I agree plus with the guardian knowing who the seer is puts the seer at substantially less risk. There needs to be that risk to make it interesting.
This is exactly why that can't be done. The guardian would never guard anybody but the seer. Why should they?

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Old 06-15-2005, 10:34 AM   #593
Hookbill the Goomba
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Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Pipe

It's okay Eomer... I found some cheese in this cave, so all is forgiven.

But just in case, this is my official asking to be included in the game.
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Old 06-15-2005, 10:52 AM   #594
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White Tree

There there Eomer it's all right *gives him a big hug*, and now that you know Hookbill wants to play it's all straightened out now. Right?

I think since I probably won't be able to be the undertaker, that I'll be a seamstress instead (had to mend a pair of jeans which gave me the idea).
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:02 AM   #595
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Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
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Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle
Mithalwen is in this game???? Ooooooh...I might have to enlist again after all....

*Fordim ponders*

No she isn't
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:13 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man
But wouldn't this tip the balance the other way? Three Villagers who know each other to be innocent, can discuss their thoughts and have other special abilities which they can co-ordinate seems to be giving the Villagers too much power. If the Seer was to identify a Werewolf early on, the Hunter would be guaranteed a Werewolf kill when he or she dies, which rather takes half the fun out of it.

.

Well the Werewolves are guaranteed kills almost always so I don't have a problem with that. Also it would depend on the wolves attacking the hunter - I mean it is not as if the Hunter can make a preemptive strike. Also if there are separate masons the "ordinary" villagers will have to guess whether those seeming to work together are wolves or masons.. at least the hunter/guardian /seer trio can protect themselves a little. And they will have to be careful to be subtle.

Anyway I guess like "Mornington Crescent", various variations will develop and I may well enforce these rules if I ever get my chance at being dictator ... I mean moderator .... And if the sheep don't like it.....

Anyway, DVWP, my attention out of work shall be focused mainly elsewhere for 2 weeks from Monday... (SW19)
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:17 AM   #597
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Nice list Eomer although we shouldn't consider TGWBS to be a player per se, being that he is the first to die and will be the moderator.
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:24 AM   #598
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Originally Posted by Mithalwen
Also if there are separate masons the "ordinary" villagers will have to guess whether those seeming to work together are wolves or masons..
I doubt that the Masons would wish to make it too obvious that they are working together. I see them as having great potential to help the Villagers, provided that they play it right (although two "loudmouths" acting in concert could prove a disaster ... ). In any event, the Guardian/Seer issue does, I thin, preclude all three of them working together. The Seer and the Hunter could feasibly work together, but I prefer the idea of any additional roles going to players who would otherwise merely be ordinary Villagers.
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:28 AM   #599
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Maybe as a compromise between the hunter/guardian/seer combination and the 'mason' idea you could have just the hunter and guardian know each other...

the guardian wouldn't really want to protect the hunter because if the hunter's killed they stand a chance of getting a werewolf (so you don't run into the prob of the Guardian only protecting the person they know [seer])

Since it's only two it gives the same advantage of having two 'masons'...it just happens that they aren't ordinary villagers...


It's probably worth thinking about...
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Old 06-15-2005, 11:38 AM   #600
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Eye

Let's not go overboard.

The villagers need a bit of help, not tons of help. Therefore, I don't think the seer, guardian, and hunter should be working together.

The addition of masons should do the trick just fine.

Well- that is if the village can manage to make it to day two with the seer still alive.
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