What d'ya mean, it's only a smile?

[HerenIstarion]

Recent discussion on The Dunedain raised the issue. What meanings do we associate with smilies?

I can not post them all, as the total number is restricted to three, but I will post codes with spaces in between. Remove spaces, and you'll know which is which

so, listed values:

: o - embarrassment'
: eek : - 'EEK!
: ( - 'frown'
: mad : - mad
: ) - smile
: rolleyes : - sarcastic
: cool : - cool
: p - stick out tongue
; ) - wink
: smokin : - squatter
: D - big grin
: confused : - confused

I suppose (and I've seen the paragons to prove it) that values given do not necessarily comply with general usage. Per instance, 'sarcastic' smiley was exploited by many to express 'exasperation or self-effacement'. I must confess my usage was the same until I've read its listed value some months back. It was the gesture similar to what cartoon heroes do when they sweep their feet on the floor after a deed they are not entirely proud of, so to say, but which they had to make anyway. But I stopped using it for fear my post may seem sarcastic where it was not. And, ahem, what is the purpose of , if it is 'frown'? I frown at people when I'm angry. Said smiley used to express sadness for me, until, again, I've read listed value for it.

That'd been the prologue. The main purpose of this thread is as follows:

Do you think, that

A. More exact and maybe a bit longer definitions should be worked out for smilies
B. Convention agreed upon should be thence counted as 'Canon' for these fora, whatever deviations on other boards may be

That may eliminate the confusion like to one made in the thread linked above, I suppose

[Imladris]

I definitely believe that this smile 's description should be changed from frown to "sad" but I really don't believe that the whole range of our twelve smilies need to be revamped with new definitions as they seem to fit pretty well to me (though I do believe that the "eek" smiley has been used for excitement as well as for shock).

As for a convention -- I think that would be a...limiting...idea. It would be difficult to have a convention to determine the meanings of each one. Take, for instance, this smile: It could be used as happy, but I have also used it as a term of politeness in dealing with people I do not want to offend but whom I must deal with anyway (alas, one of the problems of mod duty). What gives? Happy, or the polite smile that people wear when dealing with people who are constantly breaking the rules, etc. Then there is the cool smiley : cool, or smug?

What I'm trying to say is that often some smileys have a double meaning. Hence, if you do not want the meaning of your smiley to be taken awry, make sure that the context and style of your smiley agree with the use of your smiley.

Readers of smileys should look at context and tone. If it sounds nice and they think the smiley is sarcastic, then just assume that the writer used a poor choice in smileys. On the other hand of that, if the writer was being sarcastic then he certainly should have shown it in the context and style of his writing.

It's the flip side of the coin: a smiley enhances what you are trying to say. It does not say it for you. Likewise, your writing defines the meaning of the smiley.

[radagastly]

Although there are a few exceptions, I generally try and avoid the use of smilies in my posts <--(see, no smilie here!) for the same reasons you mention above. I'm afraid they will confuse my otherwise carefully crafted (well usually carefully crafted) prose.

See. The smilie I used above could be self-depricating, embarassed or sarcastic depending on the reader. I include it because I intend the reader to decide for themselves whether my prose is careful or not and whether I'm aware of how careful it is (or not!) In this case, the confusion as to its meaning enhances the message so I include it.

Does this smilie mean laughter, or sticking your tongue out like a school-child teasing a classmate? Just wondering. <--maybe this means laughter!

[The Barrow-Wight]

Like anything, smilies should be taken in the context they are given. For instance, might mean I think I'm really cool, or it could say I'm wearing a red hat and smoking a pipe (as usual). The reader would have to check my words to decipher my meaning. Likewise, probably equates incredulity, but maybe it just indicates that I've smashed my finger in the drawer (again). I'm never sure about . It looks like its supposed to be a wink, but it looks more like I just got poked in the eye and I am happy about it. That's just wierd.

[Encaitare]

Does this smilie mean laughter, or sticking your tongue out like a school-child teasing a classmate?

I think it implies silliness. That's what I use it for, anyway -- to imply that I'm being facetious or that what I'm saying is not meant to be taken too seriously.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I find that the tongue smiley is the cheeky one as opposed to the silly one, and should be used only when you know the person you are directing it towards.

And definitely looks sad as opposed to, uh, frowny?

There are only 2 smileys I've never used, those being the 2 red ones. I am never angry or embarassed when on the Downs!

[Elennar Starfire]

I generally use : ( and : confused : to indicate levels of upset-ness. A mild upset doesn't require the sad smilie, it seems too strong. Therefore I use the one that seems to be merely perturbed rather than about to weep.

I use ; ) for silliness, or otherwise unintended to be taken seriously. : p is cheeky and teasing. As their meanings to me are rather similar, I may have trouble deciding which to use.

: rolleyes : usually indicates minor embarrassment or that I think something is stupid. : o is for more serious embarrassment.

: D and : ) are for happiness, again, which I choose depends on how happy I am.

: eek : is shock, : mad : is anger, and : smokin : and : cool : I don't use often.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

When I read your impressions of the smileys, I come to think, how many people I may have offended by using them.
To me : rolleyes:, for example, means a) I'm acting/ I have done something silly/stupid b) the thing I'm talking about is silly c) sarcastic d) something else depending on the context. But I'm always using that smiley with friendly thoughts i.e. I don't want to offend anyone.
I use : ( to describe sadness but I very often replace it with : confused: since it looks less devastated.
And finally this one . I for one use it quite lot. Since it seems to be smiling while sticking it's tongue out, I think it's a friendly smiley. I use it to describe same feelings as I use : rolleyes:. Phew, what a mess! I apologise if I have offended any of you...I'm quite sure I didn't do it on purpose (<-- Now this smiley tries to tell that I'm unsure if I have done something stupid)

[HerenIstarion]

um, that's the point - when you point at , little label announces it is 'sarcastic'. Maybe the best of solutions would be to remove labels and let the context do the trick?

[Elennar Starfire]

That doth seem logical, indeed.

[Lhunardawen]

Indeed. I normally use when I'm trying to mock my own post (stupid as that sounds), but when I read my post it turns out to make me sarcastic. And it's hard to be sarcastic here in the Downs, because you never know who you might offend.

[Evisse the Blue]

That's a good topic, HI!

Indeed these smiles pose a bit of a problem: they are too restrictive (that coming from one, who, admitedly, has quite a weakness for smilies as diverse and funny as possible). But, I realize this is a serious forum and should live up to its reputation by not having an abundance of smilies and icons. The problem comes indeed when one is misunderstood in the use of smilies, and the entire message is therefore misunderstood.

BW argued that the meaning of the smilies is decided by the context, but more often it's quite the opposite way around. For instance, (hypothetical example) if I see a message that argues the importance of canonical-based fanfic, followed by the stick out tongue smiley, I'll obviously assume the person actually intended to say the opposite. But if I see it followed by the ambiguous smilie who rolls his eyes, I'm left not knowing what to assume: either that the person is mocking his/her own post, or that she/he rolls eyes at those who might think otherwise, or maybe that she/he is feeling very ****ed.

I've almost never used the sarcastic smiley, I much oftener settle for this one: : p, who (in my acception) means that I'm making light of the situation, and that what I said shouldn't be taken too seriously. This same meaning I attribute to this smiley here: (regardless of how it looks like someone getting poked in the eye ). Speaking of : D , for me it has a clear message of being very amused, laughing, or making a joke. While this one: may indicate a more moderate level of amusement, but I always use it as a sign of approval (towards a post, a point of view), or friendliness, to atenuate what might be taken as a harsh remark, or just to accompany the routine of the quiz room's overused phrases like 'correct', 'your turn' etc.

So, what's to be done?
Remove labels is a suggestion, but I must confess that I didn't pay too much attention to these labels; I do let the context spell it out for me, but most of the times I seem to reach a wrong conclusion as to the nature of the message, the person's disposition, and so may other people when reading my 'smilied' posts.

[Lhunardawen]

If I remember right, the Chief Wight mentioned somewhere that he intentionally chose that only a limited number of smilies be allowed for us Downers to use, so that we could be able to exercise conveying what we really mean through words. As I can attest to, smilies have a way of filling the void of appropriate emotion in a certain post, especially when I can't find the right words (or when I feel lazy having to think about it *blush*). But we have all noticed that these very things that are supposed to make things easier for us tend to complicate matters. So I guess we have to exert more effort to make our posts clearer. We could imagine there are no smilies at our disposal, and words are our only instruments for communication.

And just a suggestion, could the use of asterisks that contain expressions be used instead? I've kind of gotten used to using it. *sheepish grin*

[Guinevere]

Good grief, I only realize now that this smiley is supposed to mean "sarcastic" !! (I know it from another forum, and there it's just called "roll-eyes".Somehow the description here has hitherto escaped my notice.)
I've used it countless times, but of course I never meant to be sarcastic !! (I seriously hope I haven't offended or confused anyone... *blushes*)
For me *rolling eyes* means :I wonder, or I'm unsure or: Hm, what could it mean? or I'm thinking hard.
In any case, if I ever say something sarcastic (which hardly ever happens), I'm not rolling my eyes!

[Ainaserkewen]

But I haven't touched a smilie in over 9 months...*sighs in relief* I'm going to be okay.

No, that's a lie. I never liked Emoticons because they were yet another thing to remember when either posting or chatting it up on MSN. I never mastered the text based ones either, and I much prefer to just write down what I would have said (though maybe a little grander because I have more time to think) and usually I have no problems. I understand the need for some validation of a funny post or mocking, but then, maybe some of you have seen my version of such emotion:

(Smilie boycott: Cheeky Grin) Which is essentially the same thing. It is just as simple anyway.

I don't hate smilies, but it's always fun to play-boycott stuff. Anybody want to join my rally?

Most of this forum's posts are written either persuasively or descriptively, and both ways are pretty easy to write in and don't require the help of little illustrations. It's when the posts go to something else. When you're reading an essay, for example, certainly smilies would be inappropriate and discredit the writer. When we have conversations, however, such clear signals are needed. A conversation is the connection between two or more people, right? So in a sense you're speaking to someone or someones specifically, so you would have to use more personal language so that your tone and mood would be clear to your listeners, or in this case, your readers. When one is expressing themselves not in conversation, such personal connections are not required, and the art of written language takes care of everything.

So I guess, it's the difference between the kind of post your're posting.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I usually associate; , and with a sarcastic comment. Because you can't always get you're tone of voice across in typing. Unless you rite "*SARCASUM*".
So, I always use them for that.

[Eruanna]

I had no idea that is meant to convey sarcasm! I have always used that particular smiley to indicate that I've somehow made a stupid error or been a doofus of some description! Colour me (confused)

[wilwarin538]

this smilie looks more like a sad one then a confused one, because you can't see the little question marks above his head since they're black and they blend in with the background. When your making a post then you can see them cause that background is more a dark grey, but you can't tell in the actual post. That should be ajusted.

[the guy who be short]

I definitely agree with Wilwarin about the smiley.

I often wonder why we have a smiley. What is it for? It doesn't really have a use does it? I think people just put it in to make their posts look cool...

I was going to say it should be replaced by some emotion but due to my lack of memory, I've forgotten which smiley emotion I want to be represented. I will return when my wits are less clouded by sleep. Perhaps it was jealousy, though I hardly ever feel jealous on the Downs, so I doubt that was it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I often wonder why we have a smiley . What is it for? It doesn't really have a use does it? I think people just put it in to make their posts look cool...

For the origins of that smiley see Heren's first post and the comment by BW earlier on this same thread:smiley thread. It's my understanding that this smiley was named after the famed poster Squatter of Amon Rudh who was one of the coolest and most erudite writers on the Downs. If anyone knows anything more about its origin, I would be curious to hear it.

[the guy who be short]

I thought it may have been related to Squatter (ah, fond memories. His fondness of long words used to completely baffle my 13 year old self).

Anywho, I haven't been able to find a reference to the Squatter question in this thread, though I've looked through it twice. Perhaps it's the drowsiness talking... If you could link the precise post, that would be helpful.

I also couldn't help but smile when I saw that you posted a link to... the same thread we're already on!

[Child of the 7th Age]

The guy who be short.....

Yes, I did link to the same thread. I found the reference through the Search function and it led me right back here. Take a look at Heren's first post on this thread. See the reference to "smoking" and "Squatter" in the list of smileys. I know there's another reference to this somewhere on the Downs as well but I can't seem to pull it up.

Child

[the guy who be short]

First, an apology to CotSA and anybody else I may have confused (including myself). That post was made an hour after my brain officially fell asleep, so I'm not sure it made much sense.

Anyway, HI's post merely names the smiley (its name is "Squatter") and the BW simply said he liked to use it to indicate he was wearing a red hat and smoking a pipe.

Personally, I never use the squatter smiley. Does anybody use it, and if so, where?

EDIT: I just remembered, I wanted the return of an evil smiley. This would be much appreciated by many Downers, I'm sure.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Here's the background information for the "Squatter" smilie:

When the Downs moved its discussion forum to this nifty new location, there was a major problem with the transfer of the movie forum. Squatter, who is not only a wonderful writer but also a computer expert, was instrumental in ironing out the wrinkles and getting the problems fixed. As his reward for that heroic task, he asked for that smilie to be restored for posting, and the Wight added an extra touch by naming it for him.

[Lhunardawen]

That's cool!

And I second the return of the evil smiley.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I've just realised that the movement in this smiley is the smoke from the pipe. I had imagined it to be the guy's left hand doing a cool little wave.

And that definitely deserves a

[the guy who be short]

For some reason, by computer doesn't let the smileys move. I have no idea why, but they are perpetually frozen.

[wilwarin538]

I've just realised that the movement in this smiley is the smoke from the pipe. I had imagined it to be the guy's left hand doing a cool little wave.

Thank you for pointing that out. I always thought it was his hand also.

I third the evil smilie! But not to replace Squatter, I use that all the time. This one: is one I wouldn't mind saying goodbye to, its very creepy.

[Firefoot]

Concerning the evil smilie: when I want to use it, I use the "insert image" function. http://www.corsaclub.de/smilies/23.gif is the web address that I use: . Hope this helps all you evil-smilie seekers.

I sometimes use the smilie in place of the regular smile when I give tips or point out small mistakes; it somehow seems more casual or something. I like the sunglasses smilie more than either of those, though, and have started using that one much more, just because I like it.

Hey, what do you know? By making the evil smilie an image, I got four smilies!

[Gurthang]

I definitely use a lot. Maybe too much.

The is good to make sure people know you are joking, or say 'look closely at this; there's something hidden'.

After that, I usually use when I say that I've done something on the stupid side.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

'Ello, 'ello, what do we have 'ere, then?

[The Might]

I actually was wondering if members are allowed to use that one, or if it's restricted to only Estelyn

[Thenamir]

Anyone can use this smiley, but I created it for Esty, in response to a comment from her in our "Return of the Entish Beings" Discussion Thread:

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

We need an eyelash-fluttering blonde smiley!

As you can tell, it's a cropped section from her avatar, which I edited in Paint Shop Pro's Animation Shop to create the fluttering-eyelash effect.

It's an homage to Estelyn, for all the hard work she does around the forum, moderating and helping out all over the place, and for her dogged persistence in shepherding two Entish Bow RP games to completion, and now working on the third installment. Her dedication to this board is amazing, and her efforts have gone a long way to making the Downs the great place it is.

All hail Esty! Praise her with great praise!

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

All praises are deserved many times over.

Thanks for everything you do here, Esty, and for being so darned patient. If I ever decide it's time to play nicely with others, you'll be one of the ones I'm attempting to emulate.



Fantastic.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

This is the first time I've seen this thread. I feel like Buliwyf in The 13th Warrior: 'Are you wearing that long face for me?' I had no idea I was thought of so highly.

Further to the origins of my smiley: I'm not that much of an expert; I just did a bit of php scripting when BW needed a hand with Movies. My disproportionate reward for not accidentally deleting the forum was my cancerous yellow friend.

As it happens, he replaces this old fellow: the pimp smiley from the original EZBoard forum, of whom I'm quite fond.

[EDIT]: I've just realised that not everyone can see that smiley, so I've changed it into an attachment.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I've made some smilies in my time. Including Gandalf, and Saruman, .

Also, I think we should have these fellows:

[The Might]

I second Hookbill on this one.
Phantom, Alien and also Serious smileys are definitely necessary!

[Thenamir]

I am informed that there are a minimum of smileys available on this site, and there is a reason: this is a forum that encourages both reading and creative thought expressed verbally. Smileys are shortcuts (after a fashion) that short-circuit the communication process. In moderation they can be fun, but I understand not multiplying them excessively. (One of the reasons this thread was started was to try to decipher what certain smileys mean, and the variety of comments shows that smileys can be easily misunderstood or used in various contexts to mean different things.)

You could petition the Wight to add these new smileys, but I don't expect he'll receive them gladly. Estelyn is a bit of an exception, deserving of the honor. And the new smiley can be used in various contexts, but the one that occurs to me is sort of an "aw shucks, you mean li'l ol' me?"

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

You could petition the Wight to add these new smileys, but I don't expect he'll receive them gladly. Estelyn is a bit of an exception, deserving of the honor.

Hm, I think it's quite good for this site not to have too many smileys, as Thenamir said. And if the "bonus" smileys are reserved only really as great praise, then it would be really silly to degradate this praise by making the "extra" smileys as something common (even though I like Phantom and Alien ).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

this is a forum that encourages both reading and creative thought expressed verbally. Smileys are shortcuts (after a fashion) that short-circuit the communication process.

But are not individual letters nothing more than signifiers for certain ideas? And different cultures pronounce letters differently, just as different individuals interpret images differently given different 'baggage' that they bring to the interaction between self and thought.

Smilies are just slightly more complex symbols, and surely a forum based so much on intelligent communication prizes the artful complexitiy of message?

And as we've all heard, a picture is worth a thousand words. And even Tolkien included illustrations.