Good thing that Celegorm was there!!

[Maédhros]

From the Published Silmarillion

Then King Felagund spoke before his people, recalling the deeds of Barahir, and his vow and he declared that it was laid upon him to aid the son of Barahir in his need, and he sought the help of his chieftains. Then Celegorm arose amid the throng, and drawing his sword he cried: 'Be he friend or foe, whether demon of Morgoth, of Elf, or child of Men, or any other living thing in Arda, neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the world ends.'
Many other words he spoke, as potent as were long before in Tirion the words of his father that first inflamed the Noldor to rebellion. And after Celegorm Curufin spoke, more softly but with no less power, conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond. So great a fear did he set in their hearts that never after until the time of Túrin would any Elf of that realm go into open battle; but with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, they pursued all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship. Thus they fell from the valour and freedom of the Elves of old, and their land was darkened.

It sounded a little bad when you first read this but, imagine if Celegorm and Curufin were not there and that Finrod would have gone forth with an army of Nargothrond towards Angband. What hope would they have had against Morgoth? If the combined forces of Fingon and Maitimo could not win the day against Angband what could Nargothrond have done?
I know that the population of Nargothrond was the biggest of any Ñoldorian kingdom but still, what hope did they have?

Good thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there.

[Altariel]

Yet another reason to love the House of Feanor! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Well, sort of.

It's sad and, um, unsad... both at the same time. It was unfortunate that, as it says, the bonds of kinship were forgotten, but it probably did allow them to fight Morgoth more effectively.

You're probably right; Angband would have kicked Nargothrond's Elvish *** all the way back to Aman... and then, since he was in exile, I suppose, they would have sent him back, but this is a hyperbole, so reason has no place here; when one's *** is kicked in such a way, one is usually deceased (is demised, has ceased to be, is an ex-parrot) in any case.

They had very little hope. In fact, had the Valar not intervened, I'm sure they would have failed miserably.

Good thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there.

[Findegil]

What you assume ist that Felagund would have let an open assult upon Angband. But was that his plan?. May be he had taken a few more followers for his secret mission. Or at least he had have an army in preperation as a kind of backup which would have had a chance to rescue him and his companions from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. We simply do not know waht would have hapened, but without the help of his people he was doomed to die in fulfilling his owne oath.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Finwe]

Ah, but Finrod had full knowledge that he probably would not survive this mission. Earlier in the Silmarillion, he told Galadriel, when the latter asked him why he had not married, that he had foreseen that nothing of his realm would endure that his son would inherit. In other words, both he and his realm would be rather short-lived. Finrod had full knowledge that he was going to his doom, yet he kept on going, because he was in Barahir's debt. Makes you really appreciate the House of Finwë. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[lindil]

Findegil is I think right in pointing out that we do not know what Finrod would have done with the support of his kingdom. Perhaps a temporary retake of Minas Tirith as a diversion combined with a more sophisticated Angband penetration scheme.

In any case he knew it was a suicide mission for himself and probably would not have wanted to risk large numbers of his people for very little discernable gain [even a Minas Tirith retake would just be asking Morgoth to focus his armies there -though this could be a perfect distraction much the same as Gandalf and the Lords of the West used to distract Frodo.

One other point is that the Noldor were doomed regardless. The treason of the sons of Feanor towards Finrod only delayed the inevitable. Thus they were led to death by Turin instead of [possibly being led in a mass assault] by their rightful King.

[the phantom]

...neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it...conjuring in the minds of the Elves a vision of war and the ruin of Nargothrond

It would have behooved Thingol to have been in attendance and heard the words of Celegorm and Curufin, for what happened to Thingol's realm was precisely what the sons of Feanor were warning of. Thingol tried to keep a Silmaril- war and ruin followed.

But I suppose since Thingol would not even take his wife's counsel on the matter (despite the fact that she was a wise and powerful angelic being) I doubt that the warning from the sons of Feanor would have accomplished anything (unless perhaps increasing his desire to claim the Silmaril). Stubborn fellow, wasn't he?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:20 PM January 18, 2004: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Finwe]

Elven kings were never really the most amiable of people. Almost all of them were proud, haughty, and self-serving, with the sole exception of Finrod. He alone had the wisdom to see that Men were indeed important, and that sometimes the King is wrong. All the other Elven rulers believed that they alone were right, which, of course, led to utter destruction.


Which goes to show, kings never do learn, do they?

[Lyta_Underhill]

It sounded a little bad when you first read this but, imagine if Celegorm and Curufin were not there and that Finrod would have gone forth with an army of Nargothrond towards Angband. What hope would they have had against Morgoth?

It is difficult to say what hope they might have, but any hope is split and diluted by the Oath of Fëanor as spoken by Celegorm and backed up by Curufin anyway. Even a victory would have merely brought the Doom into play again, and the Noldor would perish earlier at the hands of the Sons of Fëanor for want of the regained Silmarils. The only difference would be the force of the Valar would not be engaged in support of the Noldor, and that seems to be the difference that was needed. The Noldor were inherently split, and the dwelling of the slow but hot rebellious spirit of Celegorm and Curufin within the realm of the faithful Finrod only illustrates this in the larger scheme. The pressure against action on Celegorm's part only increased the fear of the Elves and prompted them to hide against the inevitable and act as hunted creatures. All hidden realms must one day be revealed, and the tale of the Noldorin Kings seems to be fraught with those who hide in hopes of a better day to strike. This inevitably ends in disaster.

The treason of the sons of Feanor towards Finrod only delayed the inevitable.

This quote of lindil’s pretty much sums it up for me! “Delayed the inevitable.” A sad fate for the Noldor and their realms, but I can’t see Celegorm’s speech inspiring anything more than fear and inviting less than noble behavior on the part of otherwise noble Elves. This is not to say that Finrod should have committed everything to an immediate strike at Angband in support of his mission. To that point, I cannot speak. I just wanted to add a few thoughts, though.

Cheers!
Lyta

[Maédhros]

It is very interesting to note that we have only speculation of as to what would have Finrod done if he had the whole support from Nargothrond in aiding Beren. What would that support would have equated to in terms of warriors, etc is interesting. Finrod knew that an attack against Angband was hopeless. (they siege at any point)
What Celegorm's and Curufin's actions acomplished IMO is the preservation of Nargothrond for a few more years, that ended in the Turin saga.
I wonder if an scenario exists where the involvement of Nargothrond with Beren could have somehow made Finrod survived that ordeal and offer the aid of his kingdom in the Nirnaeth?
At this time, it comes to my mind the words of Finrod to her sister, about why he doesn't have a spouse.

[doug*platypus]

Finrod had full knowledge that he was going to his doom, yet he kept on going, because he was in Barahir's debt. Makes you really appreciate the House of Finwë.

But should his oath have extended to the lives of his people? An interesting question... possibly yes, since the sacrifice of Barahir saved the warriors of Nargothrond as well as Finrod their leader (if memory serves me correctly). However, it seems (uncharacteristically) rash of Finrod, Finarfin's son to seemingly want to lead his entire people into what would surely have been a massacre (?).

Perhaps Finrod knew that Celegorm and Curufin would speak against his leading the people of Nargothrond into open war for a 'mere mortal'. By suggesting that the army march, Finrod got to firstly save face, secondly to give his warriors the option to join him, and thirdly to show how strongly he was held by his oath. In the end, circumstances allowed him to leave his people, fulfill his oath, and be comforted by the fact that Nargothrond would stand at least for a short time after he was gone.

Good thing that Celegorm and Curufin were there.

Still, it's not as if everyone lived happily ever after anyway! Maybe if the armies of Nargothrond had been destroyed in Beren's time, Glaurung would never have come across the family of Túrin.