Bye Bye Balrogs - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

jallanite · 08-12-2001, 11:43 AM

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I am placing this in a discussion separate from the main "Fall of Gondolin" as changes in Balrog passages are totally independent of any other features of the tale and do not effect it one way or the other.

The problem.

In his legendarium Tolkien introduced the Balrog, defined in the Gnomish Lexicon per BoLT 1, Appendix, under Balrog as:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> a kind of fire-demon; creatures and servants of Melko<hr></blockquote>A "host of Balrogs" appears in the notes for the projected Battle of Unnumbered Tears in the same work, in chapter X, "Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli". In BoLT 2, "The Fall of Gondolin":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; ...<hr></blockquote>Later accounts in the Silmarillion and Annal traditions continue the tradition that there are large numbers of Balrogs. In The Lost Road (HoME 5), "The Later Annals of Beleriand", under the year ****272 [472]:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> There came a hundred thousand Orcs, and a thousand Balrogs, ...<hr></blockquote>The final reference to a large number of Balrogs is in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10), "The Annals of Aman", 1099:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.<hr></blockquote>But in his comments Christopher Tolkien gives a scribbled comment of unknown date on this passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained' > 'his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithful to him'. In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.' See p.*79, §50.<hr></blockquote>But JRRT never modified any of the passages in earlier manuscripts mentioning large numbers of Balrogs. Even here JRRT does not modify the following sentence stating that the Balrogs who come to Morgoth's defence are slain. Surely it was not JRRT's intention to omit all Balrogs later?

In all late accounts of Morgoth's return to Middle-earth the Balrogs come to to Morgoth's aid against Ungoliant. If there were only ever 3 Balrogs, then either one is killed in the first battle, and 2 remain, or 2 are killed and only remains later. Yet we must have 3 Balrogs distinguished from the rest, Gothmog lord of Balrogs who was slain by Ecthelion, the Balrog who was slain by Glorfindel, and the Balrog who escaped the final fall of Thangorodrim and later became known as Durin's Bane. It is very hard to understand how Tolkien could ever have limited the number of Balrogs to three.

Allowing 7 Balrogs at least lets some be slain by the Valar, perhaps 3, and gives us 4 hidden who can emerge later. Or it may be that Tolkien images the Balrogs to have re-embodied themselves. The Osanwe-Kenta declares:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed.<hr></blockquote>In theory then we might have 7 Balrogs slain by the Valar, the same 7 slain again at Gondolin, and then again by the Eönwë's host in the War of Wrath, save for one who escapes.

However in the third Age speculation on the origin of Durin's Bane there is no suggestion that ir is a re-embodied Balrog, which would surely have been a guess if it were known that Balrogs in the past had re-embodied themselves after being slain. Possibly they were only re-embodied by Morgoth's power and not their own. Yet might not Sauron have also done so, in the Second Age, when at his greatest might?

With such floundering suppositions, hypotheses, and probabilities I will leave the debate to those who enjoy arguments of ignorance.

In QS77 CT does not use the account from the Annals so no Balrogs are mentioned specifically in the story of how the Valar captured Melkor, and in later mentions of Balrogs nothing is preserved to indicate whether they were many or few. This may be the best that can be done, as we really don't know what JRRT had in mind in reducing the number of Balrogs so drastically.

For most of the legendarium it makes no difference whether Balrogs are few or many. The accounts of the battles where they appear are but summaries and give no details of the Balrogs' role in the fighting.

The one exception is the story of "The Fall of Gondolin" from Unfinished Tales. Here are Balrogs in great multitide who play important roles.

Possibilities in a revised Silamrillion?

****1.) Ignore the note as an unimplemented proposition for change that requires too much rewriting to implement. Morgoth has still a thousand Balrogs and more among his followers. There were hundreds at the fall of Gondolin.
****2.) Omit all mention of number of Balrogs from the Silmarillion material and the tale of the "Fall of Gondolin" to at least follow the direction of JRRT's note if not truly able to attain the exact number. If the reader gets the impression that maybe there were maybe about fifty Balrogs, that is still an improvement. This is what CT did in the published Silmarillion, though he did not have to deal with a full account of "The Fall of Gondolin".
****3.) Insist (but perhaps not specifically say) that the Balrogs are limited to 7 (Gothmog, the Balrog slain by Glorfindel, Durin's Bane, and four others) and implement this strictly and allow no re-embodiments.
****4.) Insist (but perhaps not specifically say) that the Balrogs are limited to 7 (Gothmog, the Balrog slain by Glorfindel, Durin's Bane, and four others) and implement this strictly but allow there to somehow be 7 again after the Melkor's return to Middle-earth. Perhaps he either re-embodied those slain, or created new Balrog bodies to make up the number.

</p>

08-12-2001, 11:43 AM	#1
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	Bye Bye Balrogs <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Moderator Posts: 57</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> I am placing this in a discussion separate from the main "Fall of Gondolin" as changes in Balrog passages are totally independent of any other features of the tale and do not effect it one way or the other. The problem. In his legendarium Tolkien introduced the Balrog, defined in the Gnomish Lexicon per BoLT 1, Appendix, under Balrog as:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> a kind of fire-demon; creatures and servants of Melko<hr></blockquote>A "host of Balrogs" appears in the notes for the projected Battle of Unnumbered Tears in the same work, in chapter X, "Gilfanon's Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli". In BoLT 2, "The Fall of Gondolin":<blockquote>Quote:<hr> ... and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; ...<hr></blockquote>Later accounts in the Silmarillion and Annal traditions continue the tradition that there are large numbers of Balrogs. In The Lost Road* (HoME 5), "The Later Annals of Beleriand", under the year **272 [472]:<blockquote>Quote:*<hr> There came a hundred thousand Orcs, and a thousand Balrogs, ...<hr></blockquote>The final reference to a large number of Balrogs is in Morgoth's Ring* (HoME 10), "The Annals of Aman", 1099:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, as it were a tide of flame. But they were withered in the wind of his wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone.<hr></blockquote>But in his comments Christopher Tolkien gives a scribbled comment of unknown date on this passage:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> 'a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained' > 'his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithful to him'. In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed.' See p.79, §50.<hr></blockquote>But JRRT never modified any of the passages in earlier manuscripts mentioning large numbers of Balrogs. Even here JRRT does not modify the following sentence stating that the Balrogs who come to Morgoth's defence are slain. Surely it was not JRRT's intention to omit all Balrogs later? In all late accounts of Morgoth's return to Middle-earth the Balrogs come to to Morgoth's aid against Ungoliant. If there were only ever 3 Balrogs, then either one is killed in the first battle, and 2 remain, or 2 are killed and only remains later. Yet we must have 3 Balrogs distinguished from the rest, Gothmog lord of Balrogs who was slain by Ecthelion, the Balrog who was slain by Glorfindel, and the Balrog who escaped the final fall of Thangorodrim and later became known as Durin's Bane. It is very hard to understand how Tolkien could ever have limited the number of Balrogs to three. Allowing 7 Balrogs at least lets some be slain by the Valar, perhaps 3, and gives us 4 hidden who can emerge later. Or it may be that Tolkien images the Balrogs to have re-embodied themselves. The Osanwe-Kenta declares:<blockquote>*Quote:<hr> So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed.<hr></blockquote>In theory then we might have 7 Balrogs slain by the Valar, the same 7 slain again at Gondolin, and then again by the Eönwë's host in the War of Wrath, save for one who escapes. However in the third Age speculation on the origin of Durin's Bane there is no suggestion that ir is a re-embodied Balrog, which would surely have been a guess if it were known that Balrogs in the past had re-embodied themselves after being slain. Possibly they were only re-embodied by Morgoth's power and not their own. Yet might not Sauron have also done so, in the Second Age, when at his greatest might? With such floundering suppositions, hypotheses, and probabilities I will leave the debate to those who enjoy arguments of ignorance. In QS77* CT does not use the account from the Annals so no Balrogs are mentioned specifically in the story of how the Valar captured Melkor, and in later mentions of Balrogs nothing is preserved to indicate whether they were many or few. This may be the best that can be done, as we really don't know what JRRT had in mind in reducing the number of Balrogs so drastically. For most of the legendarium it makes no difference whether Balrogs are few or many. The accounts of the battles where they appear are but summaries and give no details of the Balrogs' role in the fighting. The one exception is the story of "The Fall of Gondolin" from Unfinished Tales. Here are Balrogs in great multitide who play important roles. Possibilities in a revised Silamrillion? **1.) Ignore the note as an unimplemented proposition for change that requires too much rewriting to implement. Morgoth has still a thousand Balrogs and more among his followers. There were hundreds at the fall of Gondolin. *2.) Omit all mention of number of Balrogs from the Silmarillion material and the tale of the "Fall of Gondolin" to at least follow the direction of JRRT's note if not truly able to attain the exact number. If the reader gets the impression that maybe there were maybe about fifty Balrogs, that is still an improvement. This is what CT did in the published Silmarillion, though he did not have to deal with a full account of "The Fall of Gondolin". *3.) Insist (but perhaps not specifically say) that the Balrogs are limited to 7 (Gothmog, the Balrog slain by Glorfindel, Durin's Bane, and four others) and implement this strictly and allow no re-embodiments. **4.) Insist (but perhaps not specifically say) that the Balrogs are limited to 7 (Gothmog, the Balrog slain by Glorfindel, Durin's Bane, and four others) and implement this strictly but allow there to somehow be 7 again after the Melkor's return to Middle-earth. Perhaps he either re-embodied those slain, or created new Balrog bodies to make up the number. </p>