Love in the Silmarillion/Friendship in LotR - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

charly · 09-30-2002, 09:46 AM

I just finished the Silmarillion recently and I was wondering... has anyone else noticed that in the Sil there´s much more love than in LotR? I mean, there´s Lúthien and Beren, the story with Hurin´s children, that thing with Finduilas etc... even the Valar are partly married! Is there a specific reason for that? Yes, I know in LotR we have love too, Frodo&Sam, Aragorn&Arwen etc. but I didn´t think it was as obvious as in the sil. And, in the LotR, there´s much more friendship (Gimli&Legolas, Merry&Pippin), isn´t it? Does anyone agree/disagree?? And, does anyone of you guys know if there´s a reason for it? Go postin´. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: charly ]

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: charly ]

**lindil** · 09-30-2002, 10:27 AM

One simple reson is that The Silm covers more years than LotR [ discounting the appendices] does days.

Check out UT for much, more on Turin's sad lovelife.

In general I find there is more of everything in the Silmarillion except for 2 things:

-hobbit's [ oh well]

-detail [ and JRRT was actually working on that from the time he finished the LotR on.]

merlilot · 09-30-2002, 02:50 PM

*Agree*

Now the question is: is the Silm richer for that alone? Does the intensity of love versus the relative mildness of friendship make the Silm our favourite of JRRT's works?

What is it exactly that makes you like the Silm (or your particular favourite, I've found that most prefer it) the most????

Legolas · 09-30-2002, 03:56 PM

Perhaps it is also a testment to the world and it seeming to change for the worse, moving rapidly towards its imminent fall to darkness.

The obvious thing is that The Silmarillion covers a much larger span of time. Lord of the Rings is a much more specific tale. It gives the account of Frodo and the Fellowship of the Ring. There is a single mission at hand - the destruction of the One Ring - and it needs to be carried out as soon as possible. That doesn't leave as much as time for love to be dwelled upon.

akhtene · 09-30-2002, 06:30 PM

I guess it's just that the world was younger in the times of the Silm, and romance had to be part of it. By the time described in LotR many are killed, others depart or feel weary of life... They've become a sophisticated race, guided by lore and reason, rather than by feelings. Something to say against long lifespan. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Anyway I don't have a feeling there's not enough love in LotR. Apart from the greatest romances of the Silm in songs and poems, there are Arwen&Aragorn, and Eowyn with her hopeless and newly found love, and Sam running to see Rosie after his long absence (one of my favourite scenes, actually)
Enough for a book embracing only a couple of years and far fewer characters than Silm has.

Diamond18 · 09-30-2002, 10:42 PM

Hey, everyone, you are forgetting about Gimli falling in love with Galadriel. That was, I thought, really touching.

When I read the Silmarillion it seemed to me that all the love stories were tragic or bordering on tragic, while the love in LotR turns out well for the most part. The same can be said for friendship. I was horrified when Túrin killed Beleg, and no terrible mistakes happen like that in LotR.

I don't have much deep or profound to add, I just didn't want Gimli overlooked. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

**lindil** · 10-01-2002, 01:15 AM

The Silmarillion happens on a far larger scale, the LotR is in a way a microcosm and a completion of the Silmarillion.

The contrasts and tragedies are starker.
Only Saruman and Denethor completely fail, in the Silm, Feanor, his sons, Turgon, Maeglin, Eol, Thingol all meet tragic and unrepentant deaths, not too mention Hurin and his family. And many of the others Fingon, Mablung, Orodreth, Angrod and Aegnor
died fighting a hopeless battle. The few like Finrod and Glorfindel who died with complete honour were rare and still paid with their lives.

As Aragorn says, they pitted themselves against a foe beyond their strength.

The resolution of the first age is a pyhrric victory [ and of the 2nd also]
Morgoth is overthrown but his crop of evil lies dormant but a short while. And he has permanently crippled mankind.

Beren and Luthien's tale the ultimate love story in M-E is the brightest point in the Silm and it still leads to the death of Thingol and Dior and his sons and the destruction of Doriath, enmity of Dwarves and Sindar.

Indeed one can view the history of M-E as one long fall till the end of the War of the Ring, and then the Elves must all leave or fade.

One can of course see a distinct parallel in the Old and New testemants. Despite the many revelations and ups and downs in the OT the only real resolution comes with Christ.

In LotR the same roll is split in a most amazing way between Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Gandalf and Aragorn.

merlilot · 10-01-2002, 02:30 PM

Thank you for putting in Finrod!!!! The best Elf in Beleriand, or MiddleEarth, or ARDA, for goodness sake!!!!

09-30-2002, 09:46 AM	#1
charly Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: middle earth, dork Posts: 84	Love in the Silmarillion/Friendship in LotR I just finished the Silmarillion recently and I was wondering... has anyone else noticed that in the Sil there´s much more love than in LotR? I mean, there´s Lúthien and Beren, the story with Hurin´s children, that thing with Finduilas etc... even the Valar are partly married! Is there a specific reason for that? Yes, I know in LotR we have love too, Frodo&Sam, Aragorn&Arwen etc. but I didn´t think it was as obvious as in the sil. And, in the LotR, there´s much more friendship (Gimli&Legolas, Merry&Pippin), isn´t it? Does anyone agree/disagree?? And, does anyone of you guys know if there´s a reason for it? Go postin´. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: charly ] [ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: charly ] __________________ "Whom do you serve, scum?"

09-30-2002, 10:27 AM	#2
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	One simple reson is that The Silm covers more years than LotR [ discounting the appendices] does days. Check out UT for much, more on Turin's sad lovelife. In general I find there is more of everything in the Silmarillion except for 2 things: -hobbit's [ oh well] -detail [ and JRRT was actually working on that from the time he finished the LotR on.] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

09-30-2002, 02:50 PM	#3
merlilot Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Brandy Hall, Buckland, the Eastmarch of the Shire Posts: 204	Agree Now the question is: is the Silm richer for that alone? Does the intensity of love versus the relative mildness of friendship make the Silm our favourite of JRRT's works? What is it exactly that makes you like the Silm (or your particular favourite, I've found that most prefer it) the most???? __________________ <--- and Billy Boyd. Thanks for the pic Alatariel (hope I spelled it right) even if i took it without permission

09-30-2002, 03:56 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Perhaps it is also a testment to the world and it seeming to change for the worse, moving rapidly towards its imminent fall to darkness. The obvious thing is that The Silmarillion covers a much larger span of time. Lord of the Rings is a much more specific tale. It gives the account of Frodo and the Fellowship of the Ring. There is a single mission at hand - the destruction of the One Ring - and it needs to be carried out as soon as possible. That doesn't leave as much as time for love to be dwelled upon. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

09-30-2002, 06:30 PM	#5
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	I guess it's just that the world was younger in the times of the Silm, and romance had to be part of it. By the time described in LotR many are killed, others depart or feel weary of life... They've become a sophisticated race, guided by lore and reason, rather than by feelings. Something to say against long lifespan. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Anyway I don't have a feeling there's not enough love in LotR. Apart from the greatest romances of the Silm in songs and poems, there are Arwen&Aragorn, and Eowyn with her hopeless and newly found love, and Sam running to see Rosie after his long absence (one of my favourite scenes, actually) Enough for a book embracing only a couple of years and far fewer characters than Silm has. __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

09-30-2002, 10:42 PM	#6
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Hey, everyone, you are forgetting about Gimli falling in love with Galadriel. That was, I thought, really touching. When I read the Silmarillion it seemed to me that all the love stories were tragic or bordering on tragic, while the love in LotR turns out well for the most part. The same can be said for friendship. I was horrified when Túrin killed Beleg, and no terrible mistakes happen like that in LotR. I don't have much deep or profound to add, I just didn't want Gimli overlooked. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

10-01-2002, 01:15 AM	#7
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	The Silmarillion happens on a far larger scale, the LotR is in a way a microcosm and a completion of the Silmarillion. The contrasts and tragedies are starker. Only Saruman and Denethor completely fail, in the Silm, Feanor, his sons, Turgon, Maeglin, Eol, Thingol all meet tragic and unrepentant deaths, not too mention Hurin and his family. And many of the others Fingon, Mablung, Orodreth, Angrod and Aegnor died fighting a hopeless battle. The few like Finrod and Glorfindel who died with complete honour were rare and still paid with their lives. As Aragorn says, they pitted themselves against a foe beyond their strength. The resolution of the first age is a pyhrric victory [ and of the 2nd also] Morgoth is overthrown but his crop of evil lies dormant but a short while. And he has permanently crippled mankind. Beren and Luthien's tale the ultimate love story in M-E is the brightest point in the Silm and it still leads to the death of Thingol and Dior and his sons and the destruction of Doriath, enmity of Dwarves and Sindar. Indeed one can view the history of M-E as one long fall till the end of the War of the Ring, and then the Elves must all leave or fade. One can of course see a distinct parallel in the Old and New testemants. Despite the many revelations and ups and downs in the OT the only real resolution comes with Christ. In LotR the same roll is split in a most amazing way between Frodo, Sam, Gollum, Gandalf and Aragorn. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-01-2002, 02:30 PM	#8
merlilot Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Brandy Hall, Buckland, the Eastmarch of the Shire Posts: 204	Thank you for putting in Finrod!!!! The best Elf in Beleriand, or MiddleEarth, or ARDA, for goodness sake!!!! __________________ <--- and Billy Boyd. Thanks for the pic Alatariel (hope I spelled it right) even if i took it without permission