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01-16-2002, 04:33 PM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Tolkien vocabulary I (serious)
Who needs Reader's Digest to increase your vocabulary - there's lots to be learned from LotR et al! I've found a word that doesn't show up in my humble dictionary, and I can only guess its meaning from the context.
Maybe you'll find some interesting ones to share, inform or speculate on! Here's mine: "puissant" Faramir uses it speaking of Aragorn in RotK, Chapter "The Steward and the King", calling him "high and puissant". Any ideas? [ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]
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01-16-2002, 04:50 PM | #2 |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
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Puissant=powerful
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01-16-2002, 04:56 PM | #3 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Thanks, Elrian!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
01-16-2002, 08:20 PM | #4 |
Animated Skeleton
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One word I've often wondered was the word "Fey".
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01-16-2002, 09:15 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Fey: Dangerous or crazed mood.
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01-17-2002, 01:55 AM | #6 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Just wondering about Tolkien's vocabulary and style in general: His use of language is not just old-fashioned to us - some aspects are quite archaic for the time he wrote it in, definitely different from his contemporaries. Do you think it was just a personal preference, the way he thought, spoke and wrote? Or was it a deliberate choice, to give his works the feeling of ancient mythology?
I get a kick out of his explaining the "translation" of names etc. in Appendix F - there's another work of literature in the back of my mind that claimed to be a translation, but it doesn't occur to me right now.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
01-17-2002, 03:30 AM | #7 |
Spectre of Decay
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My personal view is that JRRT used that style of language for two reasons: He wanted to write in an authentic epic prose style and he liked that sort of language anyway. Few people of his time were better qualified to use it.
Incidentally, puissant is Norman French, what one might call the official language of knighthood in England (knighthood itself being a forcibly imported concept). The word occurs quite often in the Morte D'Arthur, in which we find a later retelling of Gawain and the Green Knight. I don't know whence 'Fey' comes, but they used to call fairies "the fey folk" and sometimes it can be used to describe someone with perceived supernatural abilities as well as a recklessly fatalistic mood. It can generally be considered to imply a certain other-worldliness, as in the name Morgan le Fay, which uses a corrupted form.
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01-17-2002, 04:57 PM | #8 | ||||||||
Hungry Ghoul
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'fey' is an intriguing word worthy of being observed on the syntagmatic level:
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01-17-2002, 07:36 PM | #9 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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One word: Linugistic.
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01-17-2002, 07:53 PM | #10 |
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linguistic means relating to language
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]
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01-17-2002, 10:16 PM | #11 |
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I love Tolkiens language, its why I enjoy reading LOTR over and over. I also noticed that some of his sentences are very long and he uses 'and' an lot.
Lol one girl I know said to me once that she tried to read lotr but it was written in Old English [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]! So I pulled out my copy of Beowulf and showed her what Old English really was. I came across the coolest word in Tolkiens letters: "Verisimilitude" (sp?) - something which has the appearance of being real. He used it say something about how he tried to make the books seem more historic than fantastical. |
01-18-2002, 02:16 AM | #12 | |
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Hey Sharku!
Thanks for the great examples of Tolkien's use of the word "fey". I like that word. Quote:
OK. I found "syntagmatic" in some online dictionaries. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition 2000 [http://www.bartleby.com/61/] gives the meaning as "Of or relating to the relationship between linguistic units in a construction or sequence, as between the (n) and adjacent sounds in not, ant, and ton. The identity of a linguistic unit within a language is described by a combination of its syntagmatic and its paradigmatic relations." And from CRITICAL TERMS AND DEFINITIONS edited by Malcolm Hayward June 22, 1995 [http://gradeng.en.iup.edu/mhayward/terms.htm] - "Relationships between words which occur by virtue of the syntactic context of the words, as compared to paradigmatic relations (other words that are like that word)." So Sharku, could you please elaborate on how a person like me, not well-educated in literature or linguistics, goes about observing the word "fey" [or any word for that matter] on the syntagmatic level? I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for. Eager to learn. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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01-18-2002, 04:52 AM | #13 |
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I found something interesting in the Concise Oxford Dictionary. They only give the modern usage of "fey": "vague and unworldly", which is annoying. They do say, though, that it's from the Old English word "faege". I'm assuming either that JRRT uses the word as it would have been used in Old English or that the Oxford dictionary isn't what it was in his day. Probably both: every sort of drivel seems to have found its way in lately.
I don't doubt that, aside from other considerations, the use of this archaic language was another small act of rebellion against the inexorable march of progress, which since his time has seen "gobsmacked" and "downsize" accepted as real words, and "impact" somehow transformed into a verb. Poor fellow must be revolving in his sepulchre as I write. [ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Squatter of Amon Rudh ]
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01-18-2002, 04:58 AM | #14 |
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I was watching this documentary on Tolkein (pretty good actually) and they said Poland had a heavy influence on his vocab and style of writing
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01-18-2002, 05:00 AM | #15 |
Spectre of Decay
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Poland? In what way?
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01-18-2002, 05:20 AM | #16 |
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haha I just posted a new topic on this but anyway
It was the way the Polish recorded their history through songs and these songs and the songs/poems in the books are all written to the beat of rowing a boat |
01-18-2002, 05:27 AM | #17 |
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and a few other stuff like particular words and the style of the Elvish language
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01-18-2002, 05:47 AM | #18 |
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"Fey" - at first thought I would have defined it as "crazed, beside one's self". I looked it up in my English - German dictionary and was intrigued by the first definition given. "Todgeweiht", which means "doomed to die", of Scottish origin. The other definitions (high-spirited, extrasensory) I find too modern for Tolkien's context. Merriam-Webster's online dictionary confirmed that - 1. Scottish - doomed, fated to die, marked by a foreboding of death or calamity.
Now, looking at Sharku's quotes (nice list!), I find a very strong connection between "fey" and death. It seems to be a recklessness, not heeding consequences in the face of almost certain death. In some cases (Frodo, Aragorn, Theoden et al) it gives the one affected an ability to dare something that would normally be too risky, in others (Denethor, for example) it closes their minds to reason. Then, those are probably two sides of the same coin. So, what makes the difference between being heroically or foolishly "fey"? Does it lie in the personality structure of the one affected? In the situation?
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01-18-2002, 09:04 AM | #19 |
Wight
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Yes! Words! We loves them, my precious, yes we do...
"Doom". You get such a sense of inexorable fatality with this word when reading LotR that you don't get from, say, hearing C3PO say "we're doomed" every five minutes. A lot of interesting things also popped up when I tried reading the Spanish translation of FotR. They translated nearly all the names, so I had to go to the dictionary a lot. It was something to realize that Withywindle=Willow-wander (more or less), and that the Shire basically means "the Neighborhood". (Makes sense if you think about it, but I never had.) He took such pains with his words, didn't he? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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01-18-2002, 10:24 AM | #20 |
Hungry Ghoul
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You may be interested to hear -- if you haven't already -- that this idea led to a new site feature:Talking Tolkien, a soon growing collection of analysis of 'Tolkien-words'.
I have never heard of any Polish influence to Tolkien. I only know his statement "I can't write Russian and find Polish rather sticky yet" (Letters). Syntagmatic is a high-brow term with a low-brow meaning, it basically just means 'in the context of a sentence', as opposed to the also mentioned paradigmatic, where words that could have been used instead of the word in question could have been used. Paradigmatic observation basically just means giving synonyms, or definitions. |
01-18-2002, 10:28 AM | #21 | |||
Spectre of Decay
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01-18-2002, 10:30 AM | #22 | |
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Lostgariel, I think Sharkey means in essence that 'fey' is worth being examined in context, and also in comparison to other uses which are also in context -- many examples of which he has so kindly provided for our edification.
Squatter, I get frustrated with the deficiencies of my dictionary too! Maybe the problem is that you're using the "Concise" rather than the "Unabridged" Oxford Dictionary. I presume that the "Unabridged" would have the fuller definition, but I cannot say since they want you to pay money to look things up in their online version. I guess you can get away with that if you're the best (or at least have managed to foster that perception!). Among the things I desire to own one of these days is one of those gigantic Unabridged Oxford Dictionaries that requires its own table. KayQy, the prof does get his money's worth out of "doom", doesn't he? Tolkien may be the first place I encountered that word used to mean "a decision or judgment, especially an official condemnation to a severe penalty" (Webster's), as when the Valar punish Fëanor: Quote:
Estelyn, neat thread! |
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01-18-2002, 10:55 AM | #23 |
Stonehearted Dwarf Smith
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dwimmerlaik sounds alot like another rohirric words: 'Dwimordene', which is Lorien, and is translated haunted Valley and Dwimorberg: Haunted Mountain.
Robert Foster CGME has dwimmerlaik translated to: work of necromancy, spectre. If you want a translation of the word I recommend an Old English dictionary [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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01-18-2002, 11:01 AM | #24 | |
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01-18-2002, 11:08 AM | #25 |
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Settling down from my victory dance that I was able to reply six minutes before the hobbit, let me dwell on the word dwimmerlaik a bit.
Shippey's invaluable "Road to Middle-Earth" provides some information: "Éomer says Saruman is 'dwimmer-crafty', using an old word for 'nightmare' or 'illusion' to say that wizards are 'skinturners' like Beorn, which as far as we know they are not." (117) "Close in both place and time was the Brut, an Arthurian Chronicle-epic by one Lajamon. Tolkien certainly valued this as a repository of past tradition, borrowing from it, for instance, Éowyn's word 'dwimmerlaik'." (300) To speculate wildly, as I will, on the origin and relations of 'laik' may be idle, but interesting nevertheless: as a simple meaning, it might come from "Late Latin laicus, from Late Greek laïkos, from Greek, of the people, from laos people" (www.m-w.com, laical. More interesting may be a connection with the German word Leiche, corpse; that connection seems indeed plausible even with the relation of English-German sounds in mind. (edit) That assumption of mine is proven correct by Mirrorball Man's kind providing of the OE/AS word [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ] |
01-18-2002, 11:18 AM | #26 | |
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Quote:
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01-18-2002, 02:05 PM | #27 |
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Congratulations on your swift reply, Old Man! I salute you! TDS takes full responsibility for his defeats as well as his triumphs. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
To lower the intellectual standards of the thread for a moment, the components of "dwimmerlaik" also bear resemblance to two other words, both of which will be familiar to players of certain popular RPGs: "dweomer" and "lich". "dweomer" - "...occurs only once in medieval literature - in a work from around 1205. Even then it does not occur alone but in the compound term dweomer-craeften meaning "magic art". It is thought to be related to the Old English gedwimer (or gedwomer) "sorcery". "lich" - (from a more reputable source, the invaluable www.m-w.com) body, corpse (from Old English lIc) [ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ] |
01-20-2002, 07:29 AM | #28 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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KayQy, I found a nice usage of "doom" in the dwarves' song in the Hobbit:
"they heard the tramp of doom" - tramp of doom sounds good, doesn't it? Earlier in the same song I found the noun "fells" - I'm assuming it's related to the adjective "fell", which is another word worth looking at. The context that spontaneously occurs to me is "one fell swoop". Anyone have some more etymology on that one?
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
01-20-2002, 08:08 AM | #29 | |
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I now feel thoroughly humbled in the etymological stakes, so I shall pop off and fail to fill in the Times crossword.
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01-22-2002, 05:19 PM | #30 |
Wight
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On the issue of Polish affecting Tolkien's language, I remeber from his biography reading a part about when he was younger how he visited a Polish speaking country and loved the language. I believe it influenced some of his created languages, but I don't know which it would be. Possibly Qenya, or not.
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01-24-2002, 09:40 AM | #31 | |
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I once heard a recording of some Polish folk songs, sung by ordinary people who'd been singing them since childhood. JRRT would have loved that sort of thing, as it's the traditional means of passing on knowledge in a pre-literate society (they sounded quite nice too). His own feelings regarding English mythology, not to mention his earlier opinions about the Norman conquest, are widely known.
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07-23-2002, 09:56 AM | #32 | |
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I would like to pick up this thread to comment on the use of the word "doom" by Tolkien. KayQy and Mister Underhill already mentioned it, latter as being used to signify decision or judgement. While rereading LotR in the last weeks, I realized that the word does not have the completely negative connotation we give it nowadays. We think of doom as a downfall, disaster, ruin... I find it is used more like we would use the word "fate" - the Doom of Men is often spoken of. There are many other examples; I would like to quote several from The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (appendix A):
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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07-23-2002, 10:44 AM | #33 | ||
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Fate bound all of us and we are all fated to die. In the same way we are all doomed to die. Both words are resonant with a morbid poignancy; this is negative only from a certain perception of mortal death. That Doom, as is apparent in Tolkien's mythology, is not necessarily a negative event; indeed, in that mythology, the Elves are jealous of that particular Doom. By the way, Morte D'Arthur...Fantastic. Have you read Tolkien's translation of St. Gawain and the Green Knight? It is interesting, although I don't believe it to be the best. Two great Radical views of Fate and Doom; Octave Mirbeau and Arthur Rimbaud. If you are new to either; I suggest "The Torture Garden" for the former and "The Complete Works" for the latter. Although "The Torture Garden" is certainly not for the young, impressionable or faint-hearted. Great thread; shall return.
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07-23-2002, 11:11 AM | #34 |
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Would someone please discuss the word, 'leaguer' - in reference to 'the leaguer of Morgoth' and 'the leaguer of Gondolin'.
Is it the same in definition as 'beleaguer', but more active?
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07-23-2002, 11:23 AM | #35 |
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Leaguer is a noun as well as a transitive verb; just as 'beleaguer' it is derived from the Dutch leger \; akin to Old German legar ('bed'). However, as a noun it carries the additional and indeed perhaps pre-eminent meaning of "a military camp".
As a transitive verb it carries the same meaning of 'besiege'. A tertiary meaning in noun form, derived from 'league' is simply 'member of a league'. Part of etymology given taken from www.m-w.com.
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07-23-2002, 11:47 AM | #36 |
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Thanks, Stephanos!
So, when Tolkien speaks of the leaguer of Gondolin, does he mean that Gondolin is besieged or beleaguered? Or, does he mean that Gondolin is beleaguering/besieging Morgoth's territory? I'm unclear on that.
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07-23-2002, 12:06 PM | #37 | |||
The Perilous Poet
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You are correct, I did not provide clarity with regard to your question; Tolkien uses both meanings interchangeably.
For instance: Quote:
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[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: Stephanos ]
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07-23-2002, 01:10 PM | #38 |
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I've always thought Tolkien usually used "leaguer" to mean not so much a siege as simply a containment or partition. So when they put a "leaguer" on Angband, they're not actively laying siege to the fortress, but they are preventing anyone from getting in or out. Likewise, the leaguer of Gondolin is a sort of self-imposed containment with the obvious purpose of keeping the city's location secret. No one can leave. I wouldn't characterize Gondolin as a military encampment.
Maybe Unabridged Oxford-boy (I saw that smug smile! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) has more information -- my wimpy Webster's is no help. |
07-23-2002, 02:36 PM | #39 | ||
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To dig at the etymology of "siege" itself: Middle English sege, from Old French, seat, blockade, from siegier to seat, settle, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin sedicare, from Latin sedere to sit. Which, to my eye, does not suggest the need for any 'activity' but can indeed include "containment or partition" within its meanings. As for my Unabridged-Oxford...sadly, currently I am bereft. He dwells in my London home and I am in exile in Philadelphia.
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07-23-2002, 03:50 PM | #40 | |
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Unabridged-Oxford, how do I love thee? Let me trace the etymology of the ways...
Good points, Stephanos, all well-considered. I can hardly argue with the interchangeable use of "leaguer" and "siege" by Tolkien -- I meant to distinguish his useage from how I normally think of a "siege": "Encirclement and blockade of a town or fortress by an army determined to capture it." - Webster's II New Riverside; "A military blockade of a city or fortified place to compel it to surrender." - www.m-w.com. Since the Noldor had no hope of either capturing Angband or compelling Morgoth to surrender, there's an element of the modern conception of "siege" that's missing -- but as your etymological notes deftly show, a more passive reading of the word is certainly possible. Your take on "leaguer" vis a vis Gondolin is certainly interesting, but since, as you point out, it's no fun if we agree, I'll nitpick a little and see if I can back up my reading with a few parallel useages: Quote:
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