Silmarillion: What would you add/expand?

[Child of the 7th Age]

This question grew out of an earlier thread by Rimbaud (Stephanos). Rimbaud asked if Christopher Tolkien did a good job compiling and editing the Silmarillion. Several people mentioned they would have liked the Silm to offer a more detailed treatment of particular individuals or tales.

I think this issue is important enough to merit a separate thread, so here goes.

Which stories/ideas in the Silm do you feel should have been presented in greater detail? Why do you feel this way? This may include tales which are actually in HoMe, as well as those for which we simply lack any additional information.

We can even take this game one step further. There are certain essays, characters, ideas, etc. which are delineated only outside of the Silmarillion. Should Christopher Tolkien have included some of these in his edition?

I know that questions like these are dealt with in detail within the revised Silmarilion project. Unfortunately, those of us who frequent the Books don't always look closely enough at the work going on down there. So I thought this question might jog our own minds, and even get some of us (including myself) to pay closer attention to the work the project is actually doing.

I will put my own thoughts down on this later today.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Davin]

I, personally, would enjoy more detail on the many different characters/names that are mentioned. So many names are thrown out, and it is very difficult to remember who is who and what is what without more background information.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I would like to know more about the other two Wizards (meaning not Gandalf or Saruman) and more about the beginning of the Third Age. It seemed to go by so much quicker than the rest of the book. Or, perhaps, what the Elves who didn't travel to Middle Earth were up to.
There are so many names thrown at you so quickly and many of them don't have much of a story with them. It'd be interesting to know about so many more characters in there it's hard to list them all.

[piosenniel]

One thing that I would like to have seen in the Silmarillion is the expanded version from the Book of Lost Tales II of The Fall of Gondolin. The Silmarillion version seems so pale and thin compared to the wonderfully moving prose of this entire section. After reading BoLT II's version, the Silmarillion text seemed too abridged and unsatisfactory, not offering the full flavor the tale.

Another section I would like to have seen expanded is Akallabéth. The sections from the Unfinished Tales on the description of Númenor, the tale of Aldarion and Erendis, and the delineation of the Kings of Númenor would have deepened the understanding and appreciation for this important segment in the history of Man.

One last inclusion I would have liked is the verse narrative from the The Lays of Beleriand, The Lay of Leithian. It is a rich and utterly delightful telling of the tale of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel. It was not completed by JRRT, but what there is of it is entrancing.

[Bêthberry]

I wonder how my comments here relate to your point, pio, and perhaps they don't exactly fit your interest in dissatisfaction with various versions, Child, but here goes.

I had read The Silmarillion many times, but before this summer, never consecutively or coherently. I read it as an encyclopedia, referring to it whenever I wanted more info on various characters or events. This summer I finally read it straight through as a consistent narrative. Two points struck me, which might apply here.

First, the inexorable 'speed' of the doom of the world. I was hard pressed to find any free will such as I find in LOTR. I wonder if this relates to Tolkien's choice of narrative structures/ point of view.

Second, the relative shortness of the story of Tuor compared with that of Turin Turambar. In my edition, Tuor's story takes ten pages; Turin's, forty. Is this due to Christopher Tolkien's selection or JRRT's intention?

I'll save other observations for interpretive rather than textual threads.

Bethberry

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[Kuruharan]

Tuor's story was probably too "up" for Tolkien's personality. Turin's tale (a definite downer) was much more in keeping with his general frame of mind, so he spent more time on it.

Well, that's probably not totally true... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]


The Sil needs more stuff about Dwarves. I mean, really, who wants to read all this stuff about *pshaw* Elves? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Yes, there must be more stuff about Dwarves. Like for example a definitive account of their early existence and social structure, followed by a through treatment of their subsequent migrations and the foundations of all their major kingdoms. Of course, all related activities, like settlement expansion and mining efforts, would have to be covered as well.

And there would be so much more room if all that dead weight about the pointy-eared tree huggers could be axed. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]


[P.S. For those of you who are now foaming at the mouth, I'm only kidding, sort of... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

[Elsaur]

i agree with dwarf dude. i'd like to know about the fall of moria and what it was like in it's prime.you know what i mean. more about the dark elf who married turgon's sister too.

[Belin]

But all that information is contained in well-hidden dwarf records, which only dwarves would be able to access, and written in dwarven languages, which only dwarves can understand! We'd have to be dwarves! (not a problem for you I guess [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). ... I think the secrecy of dwarves is probably too important for us to know these things without somehow damaging Tolkien's portrayal of them (how did he come by this information anyway? etc)

My own addition?... hmmm... maybe more about the relationship between Finrod and the race of Men. I suspect that was interesting...

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Shadowstrife911]

(how did he come by this information anyway? etc)

You don't know? Oh my, well it all happened on a beautiful summer afternoon when Professor Tolkien was exploring the land around Oxford. He came across a secret dwarf treasure trove, guarded by Dwarvish Soldiers. But being the smart man that he is, Tolkien tricked the Dwarves and stole their treasure.

Soon after Tolkien's ransacking of the Dwarvish treasure, he published LOTR and the Hobbit and spent much of his life editting his other works. However, this secret cache of Dwarven records was lost when Tolkien died and since then the Dwarven knowledge has been lost!


But seriously, more information about the Dwarves and their history would be great, maybe someone should go search for the treasure?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pio-- Yes, when I made up this question, one of the specific items I was thinking of was the description of the fall of Gondolin in BoLT2. The two-page treatment of Morgoth's victory in Silm seemed totally inadequate after reading the earlier tale. I can do without the mechanical dragonsof BoLT, but many of the other descriptive details concerning the battle and the treachery of Maeglin seemed absolutely essential.

Belin-- Yes, Finrod is one of my favorites, and I would have liked to have learned more about his relationship with the early men who came west, especially the House of Beor.

Have you read "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" which is published in Morgoth's Ring? This speaks of the friendship between Finrod and the wise-woman Andreth of the house of Beor. (Andreth was once deeply in love with Finrod's brother, but this mating of Elf and Man was not to be.) The conversation between Andreth and Finrod also gets into a lot of fascnating philosohpical and even theological questions.

Do you think something like this should be included in a revised Silm, or at least some portion of it? Or is this too philosphical in nature which was what Christopher said? Or perhaps its perspective is "too Mannish" to be included in a history of the Elves?

Anyone have any feelings on this?

Kuruharan and others -----

Regarding more on dwarves....Wouldn'it have been interesting if Tolkien had done three histories: the Silm from the Elvish perspective, one from that of the Dwarves' perspective, and finally that of Men. Of course, he'd have to live an additional 100 years, and that might be stretching it a bit. (Oops, that was a Tolkien pun, think!!)

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

I certainly agree that the story of the Fall of Gondolin in the Lost Tales is wonderfully heroic, almost along the lines of David Gemmell. One can only speculate what a proper rewrite would have given us - I'm sure it would have been much longer than Turin's story, with better characters, less predictable doom, etc. However, the only version we have should stay where it is, since it belongs to an entirely different era to the more up-to-date Silmarillion.

[Aiwendil]

Yes, when I made up this question, one of the specific items I was thinking of was the description of the fall of Gondolin in BoLT2. The two-page treatment of Morgoth's victory in Silm seemed totally inadequate after reading the earlier tale. I can do without the mechanical dragonsof BoLT, but many of the other descriptive details concerning the battle and the treachery of Maeglin seemed absolutely essential.

If you're interested in this, take a look at the 'New Silmarillion' forum here. Our first project has been the creation of an updated 'Fall of Gondolin' based on the Lost Tales version.

Yes, Finrod is one of my favorites, and I would have liked to have learned more about his relationship with the early men who came west, especially the House of Beor.

I agree. I would have loved more information/narratives concerning Andreth and her kin.

Do you think something like this should be included in a revised Silm, or at least some portion of it? Or is this too philosphical in nature which was what Christopher said? Or perhaps its perspective is "too Mannish" to be included in a history of the Elves?

This is another issue that has been discussed over at the Revised Silmarillion forum. Our current intention is to include the Athrabeth; but I think Christopher was probably right to leave it out of the published Silmarillion. It would feel rather out of place there.

As for me: I wish he had written a full version of the Tale of Earendil. This is the one major story that was never written as anything other than a summary. I think it would have been truly a great work, possibly the best of the longer tales.

[Kuruharan]

not a problem for you I guess

Well, of course not! I'm very well versed in the history of my folk!

I'm mearly advocating greater recognition of the contributions of the Dwarves in the records of the high past that have come down to this day. Some records of a TRUE civilization, not just those silly Elves.

But then the whole "secrecy" thing, and the fact that we can't seem to tell anyone anything rears its ugly head. (I've always believed that we should re-think that.)

However, this secret cache of Dwarven records was lost when Tolkien died and since then the Dwarven knowledge has been lost!

We took them back, we had some disagreements over compensation for the use of our materials, and we are currently in the process of suing the Tolkien Estate for our royalty fees! (To say nothing about the charges of theft! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Not the best way to begin a business relationship!)

[piosenniel]

Child - I have never understood the aversion to the mechanical dragons in BoLT II.

It always seemed in keeping with the nature of Melkor to me. Having been denied the ability to create life, I can understand how he would have 'created' the mechanical monsters.

I also enjoyed them as the 'delivery' system for some of the orc troops; and as being representative of a sort of creeping industrialization infesting and destroying the natural landscape.

In all, I thought they were a great piece of scifi and would have liked to read a backstory to their creation.

[littlemanpoet]

I would like to see the conflict between Galadriel camp and the Feanor camp when the Noldor left Valinor.

It always bugged me that Galadriel spent thousands of years as a virtual handmaid in the court of Thingol and Melian. I'm sure she learned much wisdom there, but I wish she had been more active in the affairs of the Noldor. I'm sure this has to do with the fact that she grew out of LotR and that Tolkien had to write her into his history backward. To my memory, Galadriel's role throughout the history of Middle Earth was one of the primary things on Tolkien's mind in his last decade.

As to including the Athrabeth, I think it would be as good an appendix inclusion as is the story of Arwen and Aragorn in LotR. There is no conflict in the story of Andreth and Finrod with which to build enough of a story, imho.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Littlemanpoet --

No, I agree that there is not enough beyond philosophical speculation as the essay now stands. But wouldn't it have been fascinating somewhere in the Silm to hear the story of Andreth and Finrod's brother and their doomed love? We have the few success stories of Mannish/Elvish unions. What about the many which must not have succeeded? What would these failed attempts have taught us? (And what a great fanfiction!)

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Mithadan]

I have often wondered whether Tolkien intended to rewrite the entire Silmarillion in the style which appears in the tales of Turin and Tuor as published in Unfinished Tales. I now think that, at some point, he intended to write the stories of Beren, Turin and Tuor for a separate volume or a sort of appendix to the Silmarillion. Unfortunately, he never finished the tale of Tuor and apparently never started a long version of Beren and Luthien.

[Bêthberry]

Mithadan,

Given your comment that Tolkien never finished the tale of Tuor, pace Unfinished Tales, I would then assume that Michael Martinez is correct in this statement about The Silm:

"The Fall of Gondolin" is important to The Silmarillion. There is no doubt about that. But "The Fall of Gondolin" is not a part of The Silmarillion . "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin" was literarlly written by Christopher Tolkien. Sure, he tried to follow his father's writings, but what he calls editorial compression is, in fact, writing. Christopher Tolkien had to sit down and compose his own version of the tale, which already existed in at least four different versions (as "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales , as sections in "Quenta Noldorinwa" and "Quenta Silmarillion" from the 1930s, and in the fragment "Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin").

The Silmarillion is a book, composed or compiled by Christopher Tolkien. "The Silmarillion" is a story which J.R.R. Tolkien began working on about 1930. The story became the book, but the book is not the story.

NB I have copied this from the link which Mhoram provided on the thread "A funny thing happened on the way to the Canon", the link being:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/47861/63343)

I assume then that an answer to my question about the very different narrative pacing in the tales of Turin and of Tuor is that the later represents CT's style, not JRR's style.

So, my next question is, Is there any text or set of sources which separates CT's work from JRRT's work? The Silm project here, as I understand it, attempts to integrate all of JRRT's drafts into a definitive or authoritative text. My question goes in the other direction. How can I find the original fragments of The Silm before CT created his palimpsest?

Bethberry

[greyhavener]

I've said this before. I want the entire Silmarillion to be more of a story with dialogue between characters, expanded plot lines, more insight into the characters' thoughts and motivations.
Like littlemanpoet, I really am fascinated with the conflict between the elf factions. I'd like to get more insight into Galadriel. She is such a pivotal character throughout the history of middle earth, I want to know her whole story.

I'd also like more about about the dwarves. Perhaps Aule could tell their story, since the dwarves themselves are so secretive.

[Mithadan]

Bethberry, the only way to read The Fall of Gondolin as written by JRRT is to review the various incarnations of the story in the HoME series. The most complete, albeit archaic, telling of the story is in BoLT 2. Versions appear in HoME 4,5 and 11 (I don't have the books in front of me and can't recall how the tale was treated in HoME 11; if JRRT didn't change much from earlier versions, CT may have glossed over the story referring readers to earlier incarnations).

I don't completely agree with MM regarding CT being the "author" of the Fall of Gondolin. To say this would be to say that CT wrote the entire Silmarillion. Versions of Fall of Gondolin were available for CT to work from. This is unlike the Fall of Doriath which CT did have to write because there was no one consistent and complete telling of the story.

The Canon project, of which I am nominally a member, seeks to retell portions of the Silmarillion using JRRT's own words to the greatest extent possible and, in doing so, to correct errors and omissions by CT. The Canon group selected Fall of Gondolin as its inaugural work, and is using the BoLT and UT versions as the base texts, revising it per later versions. The selection of this text as the first work has been problematic precisely because the base text is the archaic BoLT rather than later versions.

[Aiwendil]

So, my next question is, Is there any text or set of sources which separates CT's work from JRRT's work? The Silm project here, as I understand it, attempts to integrate all of JRRT's drafts into a definitive or authoritative text. My question goes in the other direction. How can I find the original fragments of The Silm before CT created his palimpsest?

In The History of Middle-earth. There, CT goes through the texts very thoroughly, even noting many of the places where he made editorial insertions, and explaining and correcting some of them.

[mordor136]

I would also like to learn more of the life the istari wizards had while in Valinor.
[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Child: Yes, the story of a failed union between human woman and Elf-man would have been a great inclusion. Lessons learned? What do you think they might have been?

[Suldaledhel]

I would personally want to see an in depth narrative of the events leading up to, and including, Dagor Dagorath. The Second Prophesy of Mandos has always enchanted me, and I've always wanted to reading more about it than a few sparse paragraphs spread over the HoME series.