Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Sleepy Ranger]

Personally, I'd prefer the deadline to be around an hour or two earlier though I have nothing against the current time. A few hours earlier would be perfect for me though.

[Kath]

Please not much earlier. The earlier it goes the worse it is for me.

[Firefoot]

I agree with Kath. If you have to vote an hour or two early, that is not bad. That hardly even deserves to be called voting early. The problem that happens if you move it much earlier is that then some of us will be voting about six or seven hours early. That just plain stinks.

[mormegil]

I tend to agree with Diamond, whatever is best for LMP and the rest of us will accomodate the best we can.

[Caranlondien]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I tend to agree with Diamond, whatever is best for LMP and the rest of us will accomodate the best we can.

I second the motion (although it's already been seconded...)

[Roa_Aoife]

I third it, or fourth it, or whatever. We'll make it work.

[Gurthang]

Well, first off, about times(if I play):

Any work for me. I'm pretty sure that I won't hesitate to stay up late to vote if necessary (although, I shouldn't do that frequently). And I'm not worried about voting early.

Next, I've not yet given any occupation or relationship(again, if I play):

I think I'll be a stable-hand at our jolly Saucepan Barman's establishment. As to my single/someone's child/married status and age, I'll leave that up entirely to LMP.

I have noticed that no one is asking about normal rules, probably because we are so intrigued with the new ones. So, here are a couple. First, double lynches? I'm assuming no, but I want to be sure. Next, is there any penalty for not voting/not posting? Like instant termination... or even instantly 'switching' sides.


Oh, and as to whether or not I will actually be playing... my last final is on Wednesday, May 10. If the game starts after that, then I'm in. If it starts before... well, I'm still undecided about that.

[Nogrod]

NB. This is an idea, that should be discussed in the TiGJ -thread - and I don't want to hassle here. But I just thought, that this might go unnoticed by some people, if it were confined only to the junior-thread. So please read this and comment - on the junior thread...

I came up with an idea last week, that I have now talked with Lommy, and she was all for it. Now I would like to hear from you others.

There seems to be two problems in a WW-game.
1) The "illustrious players" are more likely to die very soon if they are ordos (wolf-kill) or wolves (lynch).
2) One can't change her/his way of playing, as it is deemed highly suspicious by others (lynch).

So I was just thinking, whether we could have a game with totally unknown identities? It could be the game moderated by myself & Lommy in WWJ, soon.

Everyone wishing to join the game would then have to log in as a newbie (with a new name and avvie). NB. This new character should only be used for the WW-game! One should not post anything on other threads with this new identity - as not to leave tracks around. So everyone could enlist to the game with this new identity - and then PM me their real identities, on their real log-ins - just to be sure... So just telling me, who they are going to be.

We could then entwine this identity stuff (well, it's the "Island of philosophical Penguins" -game and the questions of identity are philosophical, if there are ones!) into the overall narration of the game - thereby revealing all the killed with their real identities one by one. And in the end, we would of course reveal the remaining characters as well (You have to be able to get the rep's into a right address, now don't you? )

But as I said, I would like to hear your thoughts on this. And especially the point of the overall mod of the Mirth - or the one handling identities / log-ins. So is it troublesome to erase or delete persons from the Downs in general? I could send a list of these "only for the game characters" to someone in charge of the members, to be deleted after the game.

With this, we might have a totally new gaming experience (we could not trust or suspect someone by the name only, but would have to concentrate on the actual posts) and everyone would be free to try a different approach to the gaming - and we would have all the excitement in wondering, who is who...

This could bite in both directions: it would be harder for the wolves to decide their pray - and it would be harder for the villagers to analyze the posts by their writer.

Sounds challenging, and exciting to me. How about you?

[the phantom]

I really like it, Nogrod.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I said it via PM, I'll say it here. Fantastic idea!

[Nogrod]

I'm very happy about your positive reactions Phantom & Feanor, but let's swap this discussion to the WWJ -thread - as our game will be there... This thread is now kind of reserved by Lmp's game-talk - and should be so.

I've PM'd to the Barrow-Wight. Let's hear the answer from there...

[Eonwe]

Why thank you good sir! I am a hardy young woodsman. Relationship: bachelor; unattached.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Now, about this "assigning" a gift to someone if a gifted dies, how is this done? Is the new assignment made via the nightly scry, or the instant the gifted dies, does the GW reassign the gift independent from his scrying?.

The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Will you have retractable votes?

No.

Originally Posted by same

And do the Werewolves know who the EW is?

Only if s/he tells them.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

When a person dies, will we get to know also his/her previous roles? I assume we don't, but I think this needs to be cleared.

No, not until the end of the game.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

First, double lynches?

No.

Originally Posted by same

Next, is there any penalty for not voting/not posting? Like instant termination... or even instantly 'switching' sides.

Not until there are only 12 players left; at that point everyone's participation becomes essential. Before then, sheer numbers in this game make it such that not voting and not posting has its own 'organic' way of being dealt with (early in the game, if you take my meaning).

Just so it's clear: Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other. This has been added to the rules & sign up post.

[the phantom]

Now, about this "assigning" a gift to someone if a gifted dies, how is this done? Is the new assignment made via the nightly scry, or the instant the gifted dies, does the GW reassign the gift independent from his scrying?.

The new assignment is made via the nightly scry.

All right, thanks for clearing that up. If assignments can only be made via the nightly scry, then the idea of the Good Wizard simply declaring himself could be extremely costly to the forces of good.

For instance, let's say that on a given day there are twelve villagers, four wolves, three gifteds, and two wizards. The EW would probably not want to call the GW out to battle. But during the night, the EW curses the Ranger and degifts him and the wolves slay the seer. Suddenly, the village contains twelve villagers, four wolves, one single gifted, and two wizards. This would be an attractive time for the EW to challenge the GW if the GW has gone ahead and declared himself, where as if the GW was still unknown, the EW couldn't take instant advantage of the situation and the following night the GW could reassign the seer role, putting the village back on good footing.

[Roa_Aoife]

For instance, let's say that on a given day there are twelve villagers, four wolves, three gifteds, and two wizards. The EW would probably not want to call the GW out to battle. But during the night, the EW curses the Ranger and degifts him and the wolves slay the seer.

That would very fortunate for the EW and the wolves, considering the the GW doesn't necessarily have to reveal the gifted.

[Firefoot]

Neither wizard can be killed, except by each other.

So I take it that if the village tries to lynch one of them, their identity will pretty much be revealed.

[the phantom]

That would very fortunate for the EW and the wolves

Yes, yes, my scenario is not likely, but insane turns of events happen in these games, and if the GW reveals himself immediately he has basically ensured a good-guy loss should anything unlucky happen, as it would give the EW the power to end the wizard phase on his terms.

I don't think the wizards should give that power away unless a particular situation calls for it.

[Gurthang]

What would happen, pray tell, in the very unlikely scenario that we end up with just the two wizards left?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

So I take it that if the village tries to lynch one of them, their identity will pretty much be revealed.

Yes.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Yes, yes, my scenario is not likely, but insane turns of events happen in these games, and if the GW reveals himself immediately he has basically ensured a good-guy loss should anything unlucky happen, as it would give the EW the power to end the wizard phase on his terms.

Except that the evil wizard's primary concern will almost always be to have as many werewolves around as possible, so if he can avoid being killed, it's still possibly to his advantage to get another werewolf even if the good wizard can get another gifted, because the werewolves are assured of a kill whereas the seer is not assured of discovering a werewolf.

It is indeed debatable whether the good wizard would want to reveal. I can see positives and negatives going in both directions with it. It'll be interesting to see how it falls out in this game.

Oh ..... We'll settle on 6 pm EDT. (4 CST, 5 CDT, 10 GMT ... & probably 6am Philipino time... ?)

[the phantom]

It is indeed debatable whether the good wizard would want to reveal. I can see positives and negatives going in both directions with it. It'll be interesting to see how it falls out in this game.

the phantom's predictions for the game....

1) The Good Wizard will drop a couple hints so small that no one will notice on day three, and then on day four of the game he/she will outright declare. At the end of the game when all scries, roles, dreams and such are revealed, it will be seen that the GW made a wise decision in the time and manner of his/her disclosure.

2) Most will see the wizard duel coming the day before it happens, even if both the wizards are not known.

3) A werewolf-uncursing/gifted-ungifting will occur three times.

4) The wolves will kill a gifted once before the wizards die.

5) Someone who is unwolfed will be turned right back the next night.

6) If there is more than one seer in the course of the game, both will dream of me.

7) Neither wizard will scry/curse me at any point, believing that I am too obvious.

8) At least one wolf will put forth a strong opinion about me every night- either "kill him please" or "leave him alive, he's unwittingly helping us".

9) The majority of the EW's lies to his/her wolves will have the desired result, but one lie in particular will backfire badly due to unforseen circumstances.

10) For the first time ever, Sauce and I will not suspect each other in the least.

11) The game will be very fun.

[Lhunardawen]

Wrong thread, phantom.

Anyways, so that's 6 AM our time? Hehe. Expect early votes. But you already knew that.

By the way, if anyone's interested, I still don't have a husband. Currently accepting applications.

[Kath]

Here Lhuna, look at Eonwe:

Why thank you good sir! I am a hardy young woodsman. Relationship: bachelor; unattached

.
Unattached bachelor - get in there!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

She said yes! She said yes--wait a minute . . .

dancing spawn of ungoliant Felagund is too long, isn't it?

I'll join with a question mark on my head, though it will all depend on my status during the start of the game.

I shall be an ex-prophet, recently stripped of his gifts after an incident involving honey and crickets.

[Lhunardawen]

I was under the impression he would want to remain unattached...

[Eonwe]

Not necessarily, ma'am. A woodsman needs a good companion to help run the homestead. It gets mighty lonely.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Celuien

Oh, Jolly Barkeeper, long have I admired you standing in your tavern from afar and close by in my adjoining Healing and Cupping establishment. What say you to an alliance betwixt us? You supply the ale, and I'll supply the easing of headaches that follow the next day.

Aw shucks! I am powerless to resist your wiles, lady healer. I now pronounce us man and wife. And together we shall run the House of Healing and Drinking ...

Originally Posted by the phantom

For the first time ever, Sauce and I will not suspect each other in the least.

C'mon, TP. Some of your predictions are unlikely ones - but that's just outlandish! I predict that I shall, at least once during the game, vote for you as an Ordo, scry you as the Seer, attempt to kill you as a Wolf, protect you as the Ranger and hunt you as the Hunter (not necessarily in that order).

Moving on to game rules and the like ...

Am I right that 6pm EDT is 10pm GMT? Although I would prefer a slightly later deadline, I can certainly live with that.

No double-lynches looks to be a good idea for a game like this. But what is the rule for determining who is lynched in the event of a tie?

Originally Posted by lmp

The gifteds know who the good wizard is; the good wizard may PM the gifteds during the Day, and the gifteds may PM the good wizard during the Day.

Can the Werewolves pass information to the Evil Wizard? If so, doesn't this make it rather likely that the Evil Wizard will learn the identity of the Good Wizard simply by de-gifting and then Wolfing a Gifted? I suppose the likelihood is that a Villager will be targeted by both the GW and the EW the Night after being de-Gifted and it's up to the GW whether to allow them to become a Werewolf or to force them instead to be killed. But if the Wolves are allowed to pass information to the EW, this surely make it almost inevitable that the GW will choose death for the poor villager.

Wouldn't it be better that the Gifteds remain unaware of the identity of the GW, but are allowed to pass information (via the sub-mod) to him or her?

[Roa_Aoife]

In the event that both the EW and GW pick the same villager to scry or turn, they discover each other's identity from the struggle. And the GW doesn't necessarily have to reveal themselves to the gifted, as far as I understand.

[Roa_Aoife]

Oh, if we're making predictions- I predict that on Day 1 Nogrod will come up with a completely reckless and foolhardy plan involving the Seer, which everyone will disagree with, but end up following anyways, that will ultimately save the village.

And there will be a lot of double deaths at night when the Hunter role has to be repeatedly reassigned as they take out seer after seer.

[Diamond18]

Well, I predict a riot.

I also predict that I will be on the good side for as long as I live, never getting a chance to be evil, but everyone will be highly suspicious of my anyway and I will be nearly lynched on one of the first three days.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

As long as we're making predictions, I predict chaos. Beautiful, inspired chaos, but chaos nonetheless. I wouldn't want to miss a minute.

[Kuruharan]

One of the advantages of the Good Wizard is tactical flexibility. The Good Wizard has more courses of action available. Obviously, they are not all always beneficial...but they are there. The Good Wizard has the freedom to do practically anything.

The Evil Wizard is more restricted, especially in the area of communication. I think effective communication is going to be one of the more difficult challenges for the Evil Wizard as his/her/its communication is going to have to flow through LMP & Boro88. The Good Wizard can dispense with that as soon as he/she/it feels like it...although this is clearly something of an irreversible decision as soon as it is made. However, at a crisis moment in the game the ability of the Good Wizard to speak directly to his/her/its minions could turn the game in his/her/its favor.

I hope I was able to clear up some concerns in this area.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by SPM

Aw shucks! I am powerless to resist your wiles, lady healer. I now pronounce us man and wife. And together we shall run the House of Healing and Drinking ...

Oh, lovely! What a perfect pair we'll make, I'm sure.

Predictions: Despite the constant shifting alliances in this village, I'll still remain an ordo, and then die at the hands of a wolvish plot.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Am I right that 6pm EDT is 10pm GMT? Although I would prefer a slightly later deadline, I can certainly live with that.

Yes. It seems to work the least worst for the most players.

what is the rule for determining who is lynched in the event of a tie?

First to reach that highest number of votes, is lynched.

Can the Werewolves pass information to the Evil Wizard?

Yes.

If so, doesn't this make it rather likely that the Evil Wizard will learn the identity of the Good Wizard simply by de-gifting and then Wolfing a Gifted?

That's one strategy that the evil wizard can try to use, and a reason why the good wizard may try to hide his/her identity from the gifteds.

Wouldn't it be better that the Gifteds remain unaware of the identity of the GW, but are allowed to pass information (via the sub-mod) to him or her?

That's up to the good wizard, who is not required to reveal his/her identity to anyone.

Hee hee! I had thought that I might have to force you guys into marriages, but one never has to push nature, which works quite well by itself. You guys are hooking up like birds in spring! Just wait till the deaths start and these relational attachments start, well, you know....

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by SPM

I predict that I shall, at least once during the game, vote for you as an Ordo, scry you as the Seer, attempt to kill you as a Wolf, protect you as the Ranger and hunt you as the Hunter (not necessarily in that order).

Ha ha!

Well, if you and I both stay alive long enough for all that to happen, I'll be happy.

Originally Posted by lmp

You guys are hooking up like birds in spring!

Speaking of which, I had better single out a maiden or two to have a bit of fun with. Hmm... let's see.... Azaelia! Be prepared to flirt a bit.

[Diamond18]

Azaelia! Be prepared to flirt a bit.

*Diamond slaps battledore against the palm of her hand and raises an eyebrow* I've got my eye on you.

As to the rules, I'm completely flummoxed at this point, but once I can devote more time to reading them over, I'm sure I'll be... even more flummoxed. I have a feeling the mods are going to be really earning their keep during this game.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ha ha!

Well, if you and I both stay alive long enough for all that to happen, I'll be happy.

Speaking of which, I had better single out a maiden or two to have a bit of fun with. Hmm... let's see.... Azaelia! Be prepared to flirt a bit.

Hahaha *prepares*

Originally Posted by diamond-mom

*Diamond slaps battledore against the palm of her hand and raises an eyebrow* I've got my eye on you.

Aww, c'mon, mum...It's just a bit of fun! *ducks battledore*

To Phantom: you just have to watch out for my mum...She's a bit... *whispers* crazy.

*Azaelia scoots before she can be hit with a battledore, and advises Phantom to do the same*

Oh dear, I'm already having too much fun with this. Can't wait!

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Not necessarily, ma'am. A woodsman needs a good companion to help run the homestead. It gets mighty lonely.

A woodsman and a jeweler? How does that sound?

[Nogrod]

Lmp

Diamond's game will end in two gamedays time (if there are no nightly saves), and is anyhow over after the weekend.

So when do you plan to start this one?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So when do you plan to start this one?

When I have 30 players, have chosen the two wizards, and they are ready to begin..... and I have taken a last careful look at everything and my 2 sub-mods have given the "ready" sign. So.... patience, please; more details later.

[Lalaith]

Ok, I've got some rule-based questions ~

There are three wolves on the first night. It seems unlikely that two of the three will pick the same kill, with 27 players to choose from. So if there is no clear "winner" for a kill, what happens? Does the EW choose which one to go for?

If wolves happen to pick the EW or a wolf, they will be told to pick another kill, is that right? In which case, presumably, ALL wolves will be told to pick another kill, not just the "bad choosers", or they will know that their choice was either the EW or another wolf...


If the wolves win, does the EW also win even if he is dead? If the villagers win, does the same happen for the GW? (Otherwise the wizards would never want to duel, I would suppose)