Tol-in-Gaurhoth Threefold and Six: The Night Guard

[Pitchwife]

Hi, I'm back.
Brinn, about my earlier defense - let me just say I was dismayed at my error (not the first in this game) and felt I owed the village some open words. True, there were no accusations at the time, but I could see them coming, and as I knew I would be away for quite a while (for RL reasons) I thought I'd say what I had to say while I had the time. But I won't belabour the point any more.

Hakon - well, I don't know. Wouldn't a wolf-cub have been briefed a little better by his packmates? My impression is more like he's on his own and out in deep water and desperately flailing around. But I'm not sure whether to trust that judgement at the moment.

McCaber, while you're around, I have some questions about this statement of yours from yesterDay:

And I will say that I still think The Plan was a bad idea. A revealed Seer is vulnerable, and we would have no real way of testing the veracity of such a claim.

1. Why bring up the matter again at all long after The Plan had been rendered void?
2. Don't you think it probable that if Kit had revealed on Day 1, she would have escaped lynching? If not, why? True, we couldn't have tested her veracity on the spot, but don't you think enough of us would have given her the benefit of doubt to ensure her survival that Day.
3. Between the NG and the Ranger, don't you think we could have kept her alive for, let's say, 2-3 Nights at least? If not, why? And even if she'd been killed eventually before she could dream a wolf, would we be any worse off than we are now?
I'm more interested in your reasoning than in the matter itself, which, as I said, has long been void. But that statement just confused me.

Nogrod - the main thing I found somewhat suspicious about you earlier was that during most of the game up to now, I got the impression you had been replaced with some HongKong imitation - looking almost like the original, but cheaper to produce and just not quite as good as the genuine article. Obviously you've realized that yourself, and as you seem to be coming back to true shape lately, I'm much more inclined to trust you (be afraid of me as much as you like - I don't expect otherwise, and I can take it).
There's still the matter of the one kill the Night you were Guarded, of course. I'm not inclined to make a judgement based on that alone, after the Legate desaster, but I still think wilwa's #441 yesterDay had a good point.

(x-ed with Sally #518 ff.)

[Nogrod]

I'm getting through the last two Days now but may throw some individual points to ask of people when I feel I'd like to hear some clarifications - or if I think the matter urgent enough to voice early enough...

Now what say you Pitchie about this?

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

So I'm inclined to think both Nog and Zil rather innocent at the moment, and I'm also inclined to look for the majority of our wolves among

* the supporters of The Plan and
* the Legate bandwagon.

It was early Days to be sure, but that's to the point... Were you trying to make people think it that way because you really thought that way yourself or did you try to make us think that way for some other reason?

I mean everyone should have realised at that point that "the plan" would have been good to us and not following it turned out a disaster. We should look at the opposers of the plan with scrutiny, not the proponents of it (well we should look at everyone but with this matter I'm inclined to suspect the opposition as it clearly was something that would have made the wolves take the pain). Yes, people don't always think things through and that's normal but we could try to see who was faking her/his confusion about the real stakes.

Also the Legate bandwagon was totally useless... well almost... but why did you want to think it that way like trying to sway the looks from the Inzil-voters?


Also with Boro I'm a bit uneasy with this kind of throw-aways:

Originally Posted by Boro

Nogrod, just because there was only one kill again last night, doesn't mean you are now automatically innocent. That one kill still makes you look suspicious in my eyes, the difference is now we know not to lynch someone based on those reasons alone. I'll be watching and waiting for your slip, be afraid, be very afraid.

First of all I don't think I never said I was innocent before this post (I think I said it toDay though) not to talk of me requiring you to think of me as one. Well I am innocent (second call), but I can't require you to believe me just by my word or by any dubious standard relating on how the wolves choose to play their game ot not. The problem with this is that you make it look like I have claimed innocense because of that Night's actions which I haven't and thence trying to claim something which basically a wolf would try to claim. But if you were a wolf wishing to see me lynched that would actually be the exact subtle way of trying it out whether others would pick on it.

Also this "be afraid!" or the latter "beware wolves, you've awakened the bear..." - with no consequences ever - look downright rhetorical, not genuine. Sorry.

But I see there have been a host of posts so let me quit for a while to read what has been said meanwhile...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Nogrod - the main thing I found somewhat suspicious about you earlier was that during most of the game up to now, I got the impression you had been replaced with some HongKong imitation - looking almost like the original, but cheaper to produce and just not quite as good as the genuine article.

This is pretty much the best thing ever, by the way.


Internet's flaring up again so I'll be back with my Hakon post when I can.

[Nienna]

Since I was mostly done when Sally posted hers... here is just a different perspective and now I shall go read hers.

Originally Posted by McCaber

All right, all right. I'll get up. You topsiders have no consideration for some people's schedules.

So my thoughts on the day this far: Dang, there are a lot of people. It's going to be touch and go for a while, what with these two kills a night business. But hopefully we can pull off a protect choice that limits the wolves.

Although we shouldn't be hasty to lynch someone we protected if there's only one kill. That seems to be a very easy way for the pack to manipulate the village. Granted, it would only work one time at most, but it could still backfire horribly.

Warning us about how the wolves could manipulate the guarded with only sending in one Night kill. This looks as if it could be a wolf with insider knowledge.

Originally Posted by McCaber

The miner's pretty sure who they're going to vote tonight, but I'm still not sure on who to protect.

So, just to get a viewpoint of suspicion across,

[lynch vote]++ wilwa[/lynch vote]

for silly discussion on the previous pages that could have an adverse effect to the village's safety.

Seems reasonable.

Originally Posted by McCaber

Well so far I don't have any more brilliant insights. Although for what it's worth I think we have time for a Legate lynch toDay, and be ready to sort things out later.

But much of my thought process is pending on what happens toDay yet.

Says he’s willing to lynch Legate today and sort it out later but it will depend on the rest of the Day… even though the day before he warned us of this exact thing.

Originally Posted by McCaber

Well, I'm back. And toDay has certainly been more interesting than I originally wanted. We have Legate arguing his innocence, and ... just about everyone but Legate wanting to lynch him.

Right now I'm not prepared to argue either way, but I'll stay connected and think about what this shows about the "everyone but Legate" crowd.

The bolded part is notable… not sure why he didn’t want the Day to be interesting. He seems not sure whether or not to join against Legate.

Originally Posted by McCaber

Well, I am forced away beyond my control. A hurried vote to guard

++ Nogrod

mostly because he's been making a lot of sense, and I'd rather see him alive.

I cannot in good conscience vote Legate after I made a point yesterDay on what to do in this exact circumstance. So this right now is more of a look of suspicion than anything else:

[lynch vote]++ Inziladun[/lynch vote]

This makes a little bit more sense considering how he did warn us of the possible wolf trap for lynching Legate… but earlier in the day it seemed like he was feeling out how everyone would react to Legate before voting him. I don’t know but it seems like he is trying to stay out of the wagon and then voting for wolf. Both of these things could be done by a wolf.

Originally Posted by McCaber

Well, all that I can say is that I was right. The guarding was an extremely easy tactic for the wolves to manipulate. In fact, I would not be surprised if the Legate lynch was largely driven by the wolves to see how much they could get away with.

Considering how wide the margin was in favor of Legate, I can even see all four wolves voting him. I mean, Nilp and I were the only ones who didn't, and I'm having a hard time seeing a wolf in him.

It is actually highly possible that one of the non-Legate voters is a wolf because they would know Legate was innocent and want to be able to claim innocence later.

Originally Posted by McCaber

Well, I'm here, but I don't know for how long. Man, this is just not working with my schedule so far.

I am glad that Nogrod seems innocent, and no one is considering lynching him just because of the one kill. One thing that comes to mind is that the pack must want to draw the game out, rather than use the two kills to achieve a faster victory. Maybe it speaks of (over)confident wolves, or maybe of submarines who blend into the background.

And I will say that I still think The Plan was a bad idea. A revealed Seer is vulnerable, and we would have no real way of testing the veracity of such a claim.

EDIT: crossed with Brinn

I’m not really sure why he brought up The Plan again. This was Day Three and it hadn’t been talked about in a while… really random.

Originally Posted by McCaber

So it seems that the modfire+no kill was a one-time thing. Ah well.

Hakon is doing his level best to appear suspicious, while Pitchwife is doing the exact opposite. He's taking actions which look suspicious, but he explains himself well and seems genuine. I know, a rather simple analysis, but it works for me.

I am wary of joining the Hakon wagon, just because his actions scream "cobbler" or "confused" much more than wolf. Although, a wolf hiding in plain sight like that is possible, it's just not the read I'm getting.

Even after this analysis I’m still confused by McCaber. He bears close watching though.

[Nogrod]

Pitchie, I do agree with your questions to McCaber, not the least as I still think some of us haven't made those deductions as yet...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Nogrod - the main thing I found somewhat suspicious about you earlier was that during most of the game up to now, I got the impression you had been replaced with some HongKong imitation - looking almost like the original, but cheaper to produce and just not quite as good as the genuine article.

Heh, time-deprivation... Hope I can get you all to suspect me in the last one and half hours if that makes you feel more comfy...

Anyway, I'm not going to restrain from voicing doubts toDay.

[Nogrod]

Pitchie, could you just tell us why did you think guarding Shasta would be a good idea yesterDay? I mean more than "just for a change"?

[Pitchwife]

Nog, direct answer to your direct question:
1. The Plan
When I first heard our Mayor set forth the special rules about the NG, I more or less had the same idea Mnemo suggested. As we didn't know our roles at that time, I considered how I, in case I was made a wolf, would like to deal with something like The Plan, if it came up. I thought it would be quite plain to see that such a plan, if followed through, would be in the best interest of the village, and arguing against it would be a) difficult and b) likely to cause suspicion. So what should the wolves, according to my reasoning, do? Hardly bring the suggestion up themselves, but support it when it came up, and then find a way to circumvene it.
So, assuming the actual wolves were thinking remotely like I was thinking as a hypothetical wolf, it would make sense to look for them among the supporters of The Plan, wouldn't it? (Not Mnemo herself, of course, but at least some of those who argued for her. And remember, I was among those, so I was actually inviting people to have a close look at me.)
2. The Legwagon / Zil voters
I was about to say the reasoning is all in the post you quoted from, but looking back now I realize there's actually an appalling fault in my reasoning there. Quoting myself:

If there is a wolf among the Zil voters, Lommy's death would make them look better. On the other hand, if Zil is a wolf, what would the pack accomplish by confirming one of his voters as innocent?

The answer to the question is actually in the sentence before it. If Zil was a wolf (as we now know he was), and one of his packmates voted for him, then Lommy's death (=confirmed innocence) would make that packmate look better for voting with her. How I failed to realize that at the time, I can't tell. If I had, I wouldn't have been quite so confident in my Inzil frame theory.
But the short answer to your question is: yes, in both cases I said what I said because I really thought so myself at the time.

EDIT: x-ed with Nog's last.

[Nogrod]

To get this done early enough even in a provisional form (subject to changes as I have time to read on), so just a feeling of it right now...

Greenie - I'm just scared... She's too careful and good in this.
Boro - As I've said earlier, I'm a bit in doubt about his kind of soft suspicions which look like probing around but if they are time-issues I could understand them.
Brinn - The enigmatic ever innocent even when a wolf. I suspected her on the first Days and now am torn - the option of Kit being killed because she voted for her "out of the blue" kind of bothers me though... We'd need to cross-index a few things I think... Also I don't believe Brinn honestly believes in Shasta's "psychic powers" so her vote to guard him looks dubious indeed as the wolves would love to guard a non-participator.
Hakon - looks the foulest but I'm not sure if he feels like it. His last apology looked genuine...
McCaber - I could vote him but I'm afraid that an evil McCaber would have been more active...
Nerwen - Looks very good so far even if I suspected her as well on the first Days (and especially the fact that everyone trusted her) - so have I fallen victim to her charms or am I right?
Nessa - Facing modfire so let's skip her.
Nienna - Feels better than foul.
Nilp - Torn with him, really. Makes good points and is very active... well normally (being innocent) he is quite flegmatic, so?
Pitchwife - Very sensible but just because of that suspicious. So on top of things that it hurts sometimes But really an innocent we shouldn't lose - and a wolf we should get rid of immediately until further harm is done...
Sally - Has gotten better lately but has also been suspected more lately as well - so that's natural. Her end of the Day actions look really suspicious (just sitting back and relaxing on one Day posting tallies, voting for Shasta-guard at the last moment to tie the guards for the dice-roll yesterDay etc.).
Shasta - Probably innocent as it looks he couldn't care less... Well bad if one joins a game with that attitude but anyway he's in this game and we need to work with that fact.
wilwa - A tough call. Really good - and thence frightening.

[Pitchwife]

Direct answer to Nog about my Shasta Guard vote:
In addition to what I said earlier toDay: OK, maybe he wasn't a very likely wolf target - but then again, you never know; anyway, I felt it was time to use the NG as it was meant to - i.e. to keep alive somebody we feel is innocent, not to test and safeguard people we have second thoughts about (as I had about Nerwen at the time). And unlike you, I like to keep those who haven't said that much around and give them a chance to improve.
I like your assessment of me in your last post very much, by the way; now could you please make up your mind?

[Brinniel]

Suspects...

Hakon is either a misguided innocent or a newbie wolf. As to which, it's still a toss-up for me. For that reason I'm not all too eager to be joining this bandwagon against him.

McCaber has been gathering some attention of late, and as I recall from Day 2, he did look a bit furry. When it came to sharing opinions on the whole Legate matter, he seemed very careful and retrained in his words like he didn't want to give too strong of an opinion one way or another.

Sally's behaviour creeped me out a bit on Day 1 and Day 2. But that creepiness has sort of faded, and lately I have been feeling a bit better about her.

I find Pitchwife's posts from the end of the Day a bit suspicious, but I'm still not sure about him.

I still think wilwa's behaviour on Day 2 was quite suspicious and I find it strange that a lot of attention and suspicion on her has been dropped recently. That alone makes me nervous as I remember that is how the wolves won last game.

Boromir keeps slipping under my radar and I can't figure out why that is.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchie

So what should the wolves, according to my reasoning, do? Hardly bring the suggestion up themselves, but support it when it came up, and then find a way to circumvene it.
So, assuming the actual wolves were thinking remotely like I was thinking as a hypothetical wolf, it would make sense to look for them among the supporters of The Plan, wouldn't it?

Well given your premises, yes. But your premises I'm afraid just don't hold...

It feels stupid to argue this stuff again but I'll try to make it short.

Clearly Mnemo's plan was good for the village. Even you admit it in a way in your post there. And the reality has kind of underlined that.

And there was no real danger. The village would have NG'd Kit the first Night and the ranger would have taken the next one - no need to give up names of innocents during the way or the ranger declaring s/he's doing her/his job. And on the next Night vice versa...

A rival claim would have been dealt with double protections until toDay (or yesterDay) and then we would have called for a list from both seer-candidates...

Much better than what we have now - and even if looking at it from the perpective of Day1 above the probabilities otherwise I'd say.

[Nogrod]

And the point of my post was?

Well the wolves would have liked to oppose the plan rather than take the risk that the village would have chosen to support it - and Kit had been persuaded...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Direct answer to Nog about my Shasta Guard vote:
In addition to what I said earlier toDay: OK, maybe he wasn't a very likely wolf target - but then again, you never know; anyway, I felt it was time to use the NG as it was meant to - i.e. to keep alive somebody we feel is innocent, not to test and safeguard people we have second thoughts about (as I had about Nerwen at the time). And unlike you, I like to keep those who haven't said that much around and give them a chance to improve.

To keep alive someone you think innocent but who does not play? Do you think the wolves kill the "dead load" during the Nights? So if the "testing" was over, why didn't you try someone who actually plays? I mean even if you are a bit indecisive with those who talk a lot there is chance of reading them as the Days go by. With those who don't play you only have to guess.

Some might say that's a difference of opinion but if you think about it it's a question of good for the village and bad.

Originally Posted by Pitchie

I like your assessment of me in your last post very much, by the way; now could you please make up your mind?

Hard to say at the moment... but glad you liked it. It's actually true.

[Pitchwife]

Nog, I never said The Plan was bad. Remember I supported it? Remember I said the same things you're now saying to me to McCaber a few posts ago?
What I'm saying is, The Plan was so good I thought everybody could see it was good, so everybody arguing against it would make themselves suspicious. Hence the wolves - at least some of them - might have found themselves driven to support it, although The Plan itself was bad for them, to make themselves look good. Whether I was right assuming so is another question, but that is what I meant.

EDIT: typos and tense corrected.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What I'm saying is, The Plan was so good I thought everybody could see it was good, so everybody arguing against it would make themselves suspicious. Hence the wolves - at least some of them - might have found themselves driven to support it, although The Plan itself was bad for them, to make themselves look good.

For some reason many thought it bad... and that suited the wolves more than well! So why not help the suspicion against the plan? You're right in that a wolf might have taken the other side to look good but I think it's much more probable that the majority of the wolves liked to join the opposition - just for their own good as they could also be in the majority at the same time... The question only remains whether they built that opposition themselves as a majority-view or whether the villagers helped them to do that?

But that answer prolly should wait for toMorrow as we have a lynch and a guarding to discuss in half an hour's time...

But why I discussed this was that I thought your evaluation of it being more probable to find a wolf on the opposing-side to the plan I think is dead-wrong.

[Nogrod]

Tally, anyone?

Sally, anyone?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Hakon

I just got on and had time to read most of the posts but I only skimmed this last page here. So far I only have gut feelings about two people. Those people are Legate and Boro. My gut feeling with Legate is just that something is off and it is bothering me. My gut feeling about Boro is that he is an innocent.

++Boro

[h]++Legate[/h]

Votes on gut, which on a first Day is hardly a crime.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Either my gut feeling about Legate being a wolf was right or the wolves are trying to trick us. I hope it is that Legate is just a wolf.

Really says nothing, other than that he wants to be right.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Speaking of me I am here now. What is bothering me a whole is the fact that you all keep arguing over whether we lynch Legate or not. The way I see it no matter what people say Legate is most likely going to end up lynched. Who else are you going to lynch? There are some other people who come off as suspicious enough to lynch but most of you are not going to pass off an opportunity to lynch a possible wolf. From what I can tell Legate will deny being a wolf up until he is lynched even if he is one. Well I know he did that in one game when the seer accused him of being a wolf. Legate denied being a wolf even when it was clear that he was a wolf and going to be lynched. The game I am talking about is Lommy's game with the four Nazgul instead of wolves. Oh and on a side note, thank you Pitchwife for recommending I read that when I was dead last game. Overall my point is that most likely Legate is going to end up lynched whoever is the next best wolf suspect will probably end up guarded.

EDIT: Fixed a typo that Sally pointed out.

I already commented on this (see my post 277 for reaction) but basically this just sounds horrible. "Legate's going to be lynched, so you all are just ignoring other people who look wolfish?" I really can't explain it other than I already did, but to me it just seems....heck if I know, just wrong.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Eönwë said that if it was a ranger save it would be clear in the narration.

The above quote was Eönwë's answer to the question of weather it would be made clear that it was a ranger save or not.

Also, just stating the obvious again.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I have to go now. I will be back by deadline. Before I go I want to put in my lynch vote.

++Legate

I also want to say that I think Alona is lurking. I have nothing to back up this thought or anything that makes it seem true. It is just something that I thought of and I think that is the case. My guess is she will pop up before deadline and make her vote.

Pitchwife, you suggest guarding Legate again and to me it makes it sound like you want him to live. If Legate turns out to be a wolf it suggests that you are also a wolf.

After all of this "why don't you look at someone else?" business he votes Legate anyway? This makes the above point look even worse. Also accuses Alona of lurking, which seems very random to me. His point to Pitch is irrelevant because we couldn't guard Legate again anyway, but it still looks a bit weird. If Pitch wanted to guard Legate that would suggest that they aren't wolves together, because a wolf wouldn't want their packmate guarded. (Which is to say that he might bring up a case for a Legate guard but he wouldn't really want one, if that makes sense. Pitch pulling a bluff would make Hakon's post make sense but he wouldn't really want a Legate guard if he was a wolf.) Basically flawed logic, which isn't punishable by death but looks fishy, or rather wolfy, to me.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Time for my guard vote.

++Nogrod

I am voting him for the same reason as Cab and Inzil.

Erm, okay. Cabbie didn't have a reason and Dun was a wolf, so logic dictates....

Originally Posted by Hakon

Well now we know the wolves are killing one a night. I kind of feel like this is partially Legate's fault that they have done it again. I feel this way since yesterday when defending himself he outlined how if the wolves killed one a night they could escape lynching more easily.

One thing I would like to state is that we need to look at the Legate voters. There has to be at least one wolf amongst them. My guess is that the wolf is one of the earlier voters rather than the ones who voted Legate closer to deadline. I think that if there is one wolf amongst the voters this is the case but if there are more than one then this is probably not the case for all of them.

Another thing is the wolves probably expect us to lynch Nogrod today. I think we should try to avoid doing that.

Yeah, because the wolves wouldn't have thought of it on their own anyway.

And yeah, there had to be at least one among them, considering only two of the living players didn't vote him. This is, again, logicless logic.

Agree with his point about Nog though, although most of us were.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I bet it has to do with the fact that Lommie was one of the only people to not vote for Legate. Inziladun, she did vote for you. Maybe you are a wolf and are worried because she was on to you so you convinced your fellow wolves to support killing her.

With looking at Legate voters we should definitely look at some of the ones who voted earlier in the day. I think there is a large chance that some wolf just wanted to get their vote out of the way and they knew they would be voting for Legate.

I agree with you Nogrod that we should look at the Inziladun voters.

One thing we also need to think about is part of the safety the wolves gain from killing one a night. Because we know that at least once the wolves have chosen to kill one a night we expect it to always have been their choice. It could happen that we end up guarding a wolf and we just assume that they chose to have one kill that night. It could mean a wolf not getting lynched.

Accuses Dun of wolfdom, saying that it's a possible reason for Lommie being Finnished. Repeats what he said before about vote times/positions being important. The problem with his logic is that some ordos may have used the same logic, knowing that they weren't going to change their mind because they were so sure he was guilty.

Then he says that he wants to look at people who voted Dun! Right after saying Dun is probably a wolf! The inconsistencies, they abound!

More commentary on the one kill a Night thing.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I am going to start off this post by saying do not lynch Inziladun. I think the wolves set up last night so we either lynch Nogrod or Inziladun. Out of the four Inziladun voters, only two are alive. So far we have assumed they are innocent. The wolves expected us to make that assumption. They want us to lynch Inziladun. It is clear that both he and Nogrod are the prime lynch targets today. We should lynch neither of them.

One person I am somewhat suspicious of is Pitchwife. The reason is because he does not come off even the slightest bit suspicious in this game. In past games he has always been a gifted and has come off somewhat suspicious. I think it is obvious that he is either a wolf or an innocent.

"So I know I just said Dun's probably a wolf but don't kill him." Erm, okay? Awk. Freaking. Ward.

Originally Posted by Hakon

I know. In the part of my post that you quoted I was simply stating the obvious.

I thought about it some more and I think Pitchwife is innocent. So far he has only had the role of gifteds so it is logical that he would given the role of an innocent this time. He also is coming off as innocent in this game whereas when he has had the role of a gifted he has not come off as innocent.

++Pitchwife

People, do not vote Inziladun. As I have said earlier the wolves want this. Do not vote for him. The wolves have set it up so we either end up lynching Inziladun today or the guard from last night which is Nogrod. We should not lynch either of them.

Flips completely re: Pitchie, and decides to guard him instead. Reiterates his plea to not lynch Dun (again, wtmc?) and says that the wolves want us to lynch Noggie or Dun. (To which I reply, heh, right.)

Originally Posted by Hakon

I have been saying almost all day that he was set up by the wolves to be lynched today. Hopefully people will listen to you since they failed to listen to me when I said it. The wolves set up two lynching targets, Inziladun and Nogrod. For what seems like the billionth time we should not lynch either of them. So far it is clear that Nogrod is safe and it seems that Inziladun is going to be lynched. Pitchwife, I also plan not to be part of the wagon this time.

Again, despite his earlier accusation that Dun headed the Night kill of Lommie, he urges us not to lynch him, and he seems to be getting pretty desperate.

Originally Posted by Hakon

++Nienna

Something about her is off. Sadly this is a gut feeling and I am going to get hell for it especially if Inziladun turns out guilty. Still something is off about Nienna.

Pretty much a throwaway for Nienna. Wow....just, wow.

Originally Posted by Hakon

It is not just unfair to them. It is boring. Knowing who will die takes away the excitement from the game.

I feel like there is a giant target on my back today, even though none of you are coming after me. I regret defending Inziladun yesterday. I really thought he was innocent.

My number one suspect right now is Nerwen. She was the second to vote for Inziladun and the first to vote for Kit and Legate. Almost like she knew Legate was innocent and knew we would go after him. She just chose to get her vote out of the way early. Same thing with Kit. With Inziladun it seems like she was ready to turn on her fellow wolf just to escape suspicion herself. She probably realized that it would be a bandwagon for Inziladun, so she just got her vote out of the way.

I am also suspicious of Sally and Wilwa. Wilwa just because she was involved in all three bandwagons and Sally in the first two but she did not vote yesterday. If she had time to make that quick post where she made her guard vote, I would think that she had time to add a quick lynch vote as well. Almost like she wanted to escape condemning a fellow wolf. I think she voted Shasta because she was worried that her possible fellow wolf Nerwen might be guarded. At the time when Sally voted, Nerwen and Pitch both had three votes and Shasta had two votes. By making it a three way tie Sally had made it a little bit harder for Nerwen to get guarded.

One thing I want to add, is that I do not get why three people voted for Shasta yesterday. He has not been around at all and it was unlikely that he would get killed the next night. It seems like a throwaway vote, the same really as voting for yourself.

First, his 'case' against me. I already stated that I didn't have time to check votes, and you can hardly expect me to make a lynch vote without reading. And to add more water to your fire if I wanted to save Nerwen from a guard I'd have voted Pitch. Wouldn't that make more sense? (Besides, at that point it didn't matter because Dun was done and the wolves could only have gotten one kill anyway.)

Really, nothing he said in this post made sense, or if it did it had no merit to it. Seems like a lot of backtracking and trying to pin things on other people. (Although I won't completely disregard his claims about Wilwa.)

Originally Posted by Hakon

I hate having to defend myself, but I will.

Lets start it off with a simple phrase. I am not a wolf. Yes I did run on gut feelings day one because I was busy and I did not have time to read the posts when I got home. I just wanted to make deadline. I think that sometimes gut feelings can be good. Day two I truly thought Legate was a wolf, as did most of us. I was wrong in suspecting that. Yesterday I was wrong in thinking Inziladun was innocent but it seemed like the wolves had set him up. Nerwen, you are too good at starting bandwagons. You make one vote for me and it is enough to get a second vote for me, which is soon going to turn into a bandwagon. Yes today my arguments against people were hasty as some of you pointed out. Truthfully I just wanted to point my suspicions at someone and I did. I was in a hurry so I did not do my best to explain them. I apologize for that.

McCaber, there are no cobblers in this game. I am not a cobbler. I am not trying to appear suspicious. Although that idea is good. McCaber, I think you are under the radar too much. That is my sole reason for being suspicious of you.

I'm not even going to bother with this one. Apologizing is a very ordo thing to do but it seems too fake to me.


Hakon is evil in my book. That be all.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Tally, anyone?

Sally, anyone?

Coming right up, Master Nog!

[satansaloser2005]

Hasn't changed since my last vote count, so it was easy. Yay!

Lynch:
Nerwen-->Hakon
Greenie-->Hakon (2)
Wilwa-->Cabbie
Boro-->Wilwa

Guard:
Nerwen-->Nienna
Greenie-->Boro
Sally-->Nienna (2)
Wilwa-->Nienna (3)
Boro-->Nilp

[Nienna]

I'm leaning toward voting Hakon or McCaber to lynch... I'm hesitant to jump on a bandwagon but they really are acting suspicious.

Wilwa, Sally, and Nog seem alright to me.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nienna

I'm leaning toward voting Hakon or McCaber to lynch... I'm hesitant to jump on a bandwagon but they really are acting suspicious.

My exact problem. Considering our track record with bandwagons this game (Dun excluded, of course) I'm hesitant. Also, I can't decide which of them is a bigger concern to me. Rubbish.

[Hakon]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Brinn - The enigmatic ever innocent even when a wolf. I suspected her on the first Days and now am torn - the option of Kit being killed because she voted for her "out of the blue" kind of bothers me though... We'd need to cross-index a few things I think... Also I don't believe Brinn honestly believes in Shasta's "psychic powers" so her vote to guard him looks dubious indeed as the wolves would love to guard a non-participator.

Nog, one thing that makes her look innocent is the fact that Inzilawolf voted for her.

Alright it is about twenty minutes to deadline and I have to go now. I will put in both my votes. This is hard for me since it seems everyone is leaning towards lynching me. Although the truth is only some of you are. Sally, you are great at twisting words. Reminds me of my mother. Very bad talent to have.

The people who I am most suspicious of are Nerwen, Pitch and Boro.

Nerwen because she starts these bandwagons and something is just off about her. I know none of you are going to vote her but she might be a wolf.

Pitch, this entire game you have come off as innocent. I have only seen you play the role of a gifted before and you do not come off as innocent. This leads to believe that you are a possibly a wolf. Since it is just too innocent.

For Boro I just think that Eonwe would pick him to be a wolf. That is it.

++Nilp He has had some good ideas. Worth keeping around.

Voting for any of the three people I find suspicious won't get anywhere. So how about I use my vote on Wilwa. She is suspicious just not as much as the above three. And it would not be a waste of a vote.

++Wilwa

[Nogrod]

We've lost Mnemo, Kit the Seer, Legate and Lommy so we probably can't afford losing too many "independent talkers"... The wolves will love to do that for us.

Also if the modfire takes one or two from our ranks in numbers in the next Day the more important that becomes methinks.

Those who talk can also be heard, read and evaluated, even if we disagree on the grounds of that evaluation - but that's what this game is about!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Hakon

Nog, one thing that makes her look innocent is the fact that Inzilawolf voted for her.

With no real threat to make her actually lynched... Just what a wolf would love to do.

Originally Posted by Hakon

Nerwen because she starts these bandwagons and something is just off about her. I know none of you are going to vote her but she might be a wolf.

I don't think I wish to especially defend Nerwen but it looks like some of us don't know she lives in Australia and that puts some restraints to her timetables with the rest of us. So let's be fair on that.

Funny you think another wagon-starter / early-voter, namely Nilp, you think innocent enough to guard the coming Night...

[satansaloser2005]

Lynch:
Nerwen-->Hakon
Greenie-->Hakon (2)
Wilwa-->Cabbie
Boro-->Wilwa
Hakon-->Wilwa (2)

Guard:
Nerwen-->Nienna
Greenie-->Boro
Sally-->Nienna (2)
Wilwa-->Nienna (3)
Boro-->Nilp
Hakon-->Nilp (2)



I think it's very strange how Hakon seems to follow people's votes. Two Days now he's followed Dun (his guard votes anyway) and now he's following Boro's to the letter. Just something interesting.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nog, re: Brinn and Dun

With no real threat to make her actually lynched... Just what a wolf would love to do.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Nog

I don't think I wish to especially defend Nerwen but it looks like some of us don't know she lives in Australia and that puts some restraints to her timetables with the rest of us. So let's be fair on that.

Thanks for pointing that out. I meant to mention earlier that just because people vote early doesn't mean they're evil; it may be time zones at work.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I think it's very strange how Hakon seems to follow people's votes. Two Days now he's followed Dun (his guard votes anyway) and now he's following Boro's to the letter. Just something interesting.

Fair point.

Another thing: why did he pick just this from all the other suspicions I had made?

Originally Posted by Hakon on Brinn

Nog, one thing that makes her look innocent is the fact that Inzilawolf voted for her.

I'm not sure if a possible wolfmate-Brinn actually would approve of this...

[satansaloser2005]

Obviously I prefer Hakon or McCobbler to Wilwa. I'm almost tempted to go for Cabbie toDay and leave Hakon for later, but Hakon seems darker to me. Bah! I can't make up my mind!


EDIT: x'd with Nog

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I meant to mention earlier that just because people vote early doesn't mean they're evil; it may be time zones at work.

And it doesn't mean they're good...

[Brinniel]

Voting for the one who makes me most uneasy of the those I mentioned in my last post:

++wilwa

We can guard someone a second time, just not consecutively right? I'm considering voting Nogrod since he seems innocent to me and quite helpful to the village.

[Nienna]

I do not like Hakon's vote for Wilwa and I actually don't know where this suspicion is coming from. I'd rather see Hakon lynched.

++ Hakon

and

++Guard Sally

because she is making a whole lot of sense.

Edit: x-ed with Brinn... bah. I don't know if I like that vote for Wilwa either...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

We can guard someone a second time, just not consecutively right?

Yes

[satansaloser2005]

Lynch:
Nerwen-->Hakon
Greenie-->Hakon (2)
Wilwa-->Cabbie
Boro-->Wilwa
Hakon-->Wilwa (2)
Brinn-->Wilwa (3)
Nienna-->Hakon (3)

Guard:
Nerwen-->Nienna
Greenie-->Boro
Sally-->Nienna (2)
Wilwa-->Nienna (3)
Boro-->Nilp
Hakon-->Nilp (2)
Nienna-->Sally (awwww, thanks!)

[Nogrod]

Okay, looking at the vote-getters I'd like to see Wilwa still alive as she has been a most productive person - and go Days - it would be harder for her to look good all the time.

What Hakon just said - and his relation to Brinn might actually open up some new vistas of understanding... even if I do suspect McCaber as well. But maybe McCaber is just too lazy to be a wolf?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Voting for the one who makes me most uneasy of the those I mentioned in my last post:

[h]++wilwa[/h]

We can guard someone a second time, just not consecutively right? I'm considering voting Nogrod since he seems innocent to me and quite helpful to the village.

So right after Facebook gets a dislike button we need one for here too. Just sayin'.

[Nogrod]

++ Hakon

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay, looking at the vote-getters I'd like to see Wilwa still alive as she has been a most productive person - and go Days - it would be harder for her to look good all the time.

What Hakon just said - and his relation to Brinn might actually open up some new vistas of understanding... even if I do suspect McCaber as well. But maybe McCaber is just too lazy to be a wolf?

Nog, here's our problem. I wouldn't mind being rid of McCaber either, but I think our options for toDay just became Wilwa and Hakon, thanks to Miss Brinn. So....yeah.

++Hakon


EDIT: x'd with Nog, who obviously agree. Count is now Hakon 5, Wilwa 3

[Brinniel]

Why are you so sure of wilwa's innocence, Sally?

[Pitchwife]

Time to vote.
I may regret it (yet again), but somehow I don't feel Hakon is really evil, and after he and I kinda made the same mistake yesterDay, I won't turn on him now.
I'd very much like to abstain toDay, looking back at my stupid votes up to now, but I want to give the rest of the village a vote you can draw conclusions from tomorrow. So:
++McCaber
For being just that bit too elusive, illogical and un-pin-down-able to make me comfortable about him. I thought good of him earlier for his warning against the possibility of the wolves using the NG for a frame (especially after the Legate desaster), but actually, a wolf could just as well have made that point in order to draw suspicion from a Guarded packmate. Let's find out.
And
++Guard Nerwen
Obviously a good choice, or do I have to explain more?

EDIT: x-ed with lots, don't know how many right now
EDIT: coding fixed

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Why are you so sure of wilwa's innocence, Sally?

Erm, when did I say I was?



EDIT: x'd with Pitchie, who needs to fix his coding