What if Smaug the dragon lived?

[Noxomanus]

I think Sauron could have made an alliance with Smaug (or make Smaug believe this was the case but in reality using him.)

The idea of Smaug getting the Ring from Bilbo is very interesting....would a Dragon make a powerful Ringbearer? Probably yes. And imagine the damage an invisible Dragon could do! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Would any creature have been able to carry the Ring? I guess this is the case but the idea of a Dragon,Ent,Eagle,Spider or ordinary animal carrying the Ring seems a bit fantastic,but you never know. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Armetiel]

^but could Smaug use the ring to make himself invisible...(or should I phrase this as, would the ring fit on his claw lol)

[Noxomanus]

Well,The Ring fitted it's size to it's bearer so I'm sure it would have adjusted it's size to Smaugs claw. That would have possibly made it large enough for Bilbo to use it as a hoop! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Iarhen]

I think youre overrating Smaug’s power. Yes, he was a dragon, could incinerate great bodies of land, etc. But you’re forgetting the strength of his enemies. For instance, as it has been said before. If Smaug attacked Rivendell, not only would he have to deal with the difficulty of the strategic position that Rivendell has. Second, the power of Vilya protecting the land (if it was a ring made to stop decay, then my guess is that even though Smaug’s fires would make grievous harm on the valley and the citadel, Vilya would end up repairing it). Plus, dealing with Glorfindel, Elrond, etc., and all of the elven lords that lived there. And if he attacked the Woodland Realm, Smaug would have to deal with the terribly accurate elven archers. Lothlórien? Well… not only having to deal with the White Witch (and Nenya and the “fences guarding Lorien&#8221 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] a strong opponent also in mental matters (imagine, if Galadriel can see what Sauron thinks, what can the woman do against the weaker mind of Smaug???), but with the armies of Lorien and the archers. A piece of cake? Not at all. He could make griveous harás on all these lands. BUT he would die assuredly.

[Lost One]

Back in the First Age the non-flying Glaurung demolished Nargothrond, by anyone's reckoning a harder job than Rivendell or Lorien. True, it was as part of an assault by Morgoth, but he was the crucial, major weapon. If Smaug had attacked Lorien along with the forces from Dol Guldur, say, the Golden Wood would have been charred ruins. Tolkien has Gandalf assert that the dragon was a huge threat to Rivendell, and Gandalf does not say exaggerated or unlikely things (to put this moderately). Also, as has been pointed out, the knowledge of Smaug's weakspot was very limited, and only a unique chain of events allowed Bard to succeed: it was HIS fate to do this - like Frodo, or like Merry and Eowyn against the Witch-king. People are probably overstating elvish eyesight: Legolas can see and hit the Nazgul's steed - hitting a specific spot on it would be another matter. And noticing a slightly different looking spot, realising it just might be a bit weaker (rather than a bit stronger) than the rest, and then hitting it would have been even harder in the time available. With hindsight, while writing LOTR and integrating it with the Hobbit, Tolkien charaterised Smaug as potentially a mighty threat to the forces of good. It seems a bit perverse to ignore this.

[Lenwe]

ok ok so lets say smaug lived and he had the ring and he helped sauron,what would happen if the balrog from moria attacked lorien from Left side and smaug attacked from top???

[Lenwe]

And lets say this was happening during the battle of pelannor fields and the balrog didnt die :| and forces of orcs attacked lorien from dol guldor

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkien has Gandalf assert that the dragon was a huge threat to Rivendell, and Gandalf does not say exaggerated or unlikely things

Spot on, Lost One. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Gandalf's quote from Unfinished Tales has, I think, been given before on this thread, but it bears repeating:

You may think that Rivendell was out of [Sauron's] reach, but I did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to reagin the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often I said to myself: "I must find some means of dealing with Smaug.

Gandalf obviously thought that, with Smaug in residence at the Lonely Mountain, Sauron would be able to move his force through the northern passes to attack Rivendell. And he was concerned that, if that happened, it might fall. Also, he clearly envisaged that Sauron would be able to enlist Smaug to his cause, to terrible effect. Let's trust Gandalf on this one, shall we? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

As for Smaug's bare patch, I agree that, lucky shots aside, this would be of little avail to those under attack from him without Bilbo's Inside Information. And, in any event, who's to say that, if Smaug fell in with Sauron's forces, it would not be spotted and patched up?

What if Smaug had toasted Bilbo while Bildo wore the ring? If he had done it thoroughly enough, the Ring would have been destroyed.
And then there would, needless to say, be no Sauron to speak of. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

Didn't Gandalf say that there were no dragons left in which the old fire burned hot enough to melt the Rings of Power? I doubt that even the fire of Ancalagon the Black could have melted the One Ring. It was just too resistant to destruction, in any other places except Mount Doom.

Yes, he said so, but that was after Smaug had died, so you never know...

[Finwe]

Ancalagon was one of the greatest Dragons of all. I don't think that Smaug would have been able to do something Ancalagon wouldn't.

[deal_with_it]

Originally Posted by lomion

Do you think it would have made any difference in the war? I bet he could take care of Minus Tirith pretty quick.

If Bards arrow goes astray, Smaug destroys Lake Town. The dwarves (via the Ravens) hear Smaug is coming back and are forced to leave. They return to the Iron Hills. Bilbo and Gandalf return to the West. There is no Battle of Five Armies. There is no rebuilding of Dale or of Erebor.

When the Battle of Dale occurs, Lake Town may have been rebuilt, but without the aid of the Dwarves, the men are quickly defeated. If Smaug helps, its a quick battle. Logically, Thranduil's kingdom is the next logical target. I don't see Thorin or Dain sending aid from the Iron Hills.

The Battle of Mirkwood - Here's where it can take a turn for good or bad. I'll keep it short. The wood elves, like the Lorien elves, use the woods as there defense and can easily defend against the Easterlings, also the wood elves are likely better archers than Bard of Lake Town was. If they have knowledge of Smaug's bald patch, they could in effect stop Smaug right there at the eaves of Mirkwood. The Easterlings would probably flee the woods in fear.

On the other hand Smaug could make quick work of the Elven Palace and burn the forest to ashes, creating another Desolation in the immediate area. The fleeing elves would get picked off by spiders (who stay out of the fight) and flee to Rivendell and Lorien. At that point the Eastern Army would proceed to conquer the lands east of the Misty Mountains.

[Smaug]

Originally Posted by Noxomanus

Well,The Ring fitted it's size to it's bearer so I'm sure it would have adjusted it's size to Smaugs claw. That would have possibly made it large enough for Bilbo to use it as a hoop! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Hmm, I didn't think this slight 'side-question' I have deserved a new thread as it would produce little debate or general discussion on its own, but am I right in thinking Smaug and other creatures that are very dissimilar to humans in physical shape could have worn the ring and used its power to command creatures far and wide in Middle Earth (including the Dark Lord)? Following on, could any creature at all use the ring of power? I mean in the Hobbit, say Bilbo had lost the ring in Mirkwood and one of those wild deer they often encountered retrieved it and picked it up, could the deer use its immense power?! Lol. Imagine a single cute deer commanding Middle Earth flanked by nasty Orcs and Balrogs…

[Farael]

Well, maybe I should let other, better versed in Tolkien lore 'downers reply to this point, but if you will forgive a lack of textual evidence here's what happens (according to my understanding):

The ring is not quite an unlimited source of power. It is said that the ring gives people (or hobbits, or maiar, or deers) power according to their stature. So a hobbit will probably have little use of the ring for anything else than dissapearing unless this hobbit also spent most of his lifetime learning how to wield the powers of the ring. And it's still likely that even then he would not be able to unleash it's full power.

On the other hand, a powerful elf would be able to gain more power from it, but probably not as much power as a Maiar such as Gandalf or Sauron himself. With your example of a deer, the deer might have some super-natural powers, but by no means it'd be an allmighty little cute deer (yet I see how amusing that could be )

Also, the deer will probably lack the intelligence to keep the ring, as it tends to slip off when it wants to change masters, and it's likely that the Deer would not know how to avoid it from slipping onto a river or something.

But the last part is mere speculation.

[Elu Ancalime]

The main thing I think of is

Dragon-fire, and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell

He would have impacted the war in the north much. Although Minas Tirith still would probably have outlasted the Battle of the Pellenor, Dol Guldur might have succeded in destroying Lorien (thinkabout it-dragon fire and forest, there would have been a difference) and the Wilderland would be taken. Sauron would till be defeated, and the orc armies would...whatever....but since dragons are independent, I think Smaug might have settled down somewhere in the Hithiglir, maybe some hole into Moria? Which might have made for another book....
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