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12-03-2017, 05:25 PM | #1 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Frodo in the Tower of Cirith Ungol
I was recently rereading The Return of the King and came to the part of the Tower of Cirith Ungol where it reads:
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The fact that the orcs did not glean more useful information out of Frodo is rather incredible. Clearly, there is no reason to suppose that Shagrat and Gorbag knew the right questions to ask to really get to the bottom of things and Frodo would certainly not want to volunteer any information in that direction. But that begs the question of what he could have told them to satisfy them. They did eventually leave him alone, which is stated in the passage: Quote:
I suppose he may have just refused to speak to them at all, and I would think it would take a long time of this before Shagrat and Gorbag grew bored and frustrated. However, the timeline is interesting because Frodo's statement implies that some time passed between the end of his questioning and the beginning of the fight. The two captains did not begin the fight right there in front of Frodo. They did not torture Frodo because of Sauron's orders and Frodo even said that he was not seriously hurt. That might have yielded some useful results...or it might not have. Again, if nothing else Shagrat and Gorbag would not have had the information needed to ask the right questions. I have a hard time imagining that Frodo didn't say anything to them but I also cannot imagine anything he could have said that would not have raised more questions that I don't think Frodo would have been able to satisfactorily explain away to get them to leave him alone.
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12-03-2017, 07:37 PM | #2 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
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Also, judging from the conversation of Shagrat and Gorbag as overheard by Sam, the orcs were considering that Frodo was the lesser of two spies in the area, the one still loose maybe being an elf-warrior. That being the case, Frodo himself would probably have been the main focus of the orcs' worries.
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12-03-2017, 07:51 PM | #3 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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But it's also possible they left him alone deliberately, to let his imagination do the work. After all poor Frodo didn't know they weren't allowed to torture him.
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12-03-2017, 08:15 PM | #4 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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As far as what Frodo told them - it certainly wasn't much, going by what we have from the Mouth of Sauron. And if Pippin's fiasco with the Palantir can be used to judge all hobbits, he would have probably given as little as possible, some one-word answers or nods or something. What makes me wonder, though, is that the Mouth of Sauron never mentioned the second spy. The orcs knew of Sam's presence, and the question "did you come alone" does not seem very much out of repertoire. With even the shred of this knowledge, the Mouth could have bluffed and told them the other spy was also captured or killed. Is it all thanks to the orcs forgetting everything in the fight and then covering up their misses by failing to report the high suspicion of the second, more powerful spy? Is orc delinquency the only reason the whole plot failed through - Sam was not searched for properly and the Mouth inadvertently gave the spokespeople an indication that not all might be lost yet?
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12-03-2017, 08:55 PM | #5 | ||
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Frodo may have been surprised that they did not physically harm him.
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12-04-2017, 03:20 AM | #6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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It's also worth considering Frodo's state of mind (and body) at this point. To take a few select quotes:
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He was also filled with Orc-draught, which could have interacted in any number of ways with spider-venom. What does happen if you mix a powerful sedative with a powerful stimulant, both of them steeped in the Shadow? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say 'nothing good'. And finally, he was (once he realised what was happening) in the depths of absolute despair - so far as he knew, the Orcs had the Ring. Look at that description of his failure; it has the lyrical construction of utter misery. So: delusional, drugged both up and down, and sunk into despair. He thinks the Orcs know exactly what's going on - their gloating over capturing him reads, to Frodo, as gloating over reclaiming the Ring. Their questions, then - who are you? Why are you here? Is there anyone else with you? - must feel like purest mockery. They can't be expecting him to answer (Frodo thinks), because they already know everything that matters. |
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12-04-2017, 11:17 AM | #7 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Perhaps Frodo struck the orcs as so delusional and strange that there was little to learn from him and that is why they eventually left him alone.
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12-05-2017, 01:28 AM | #8 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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It's like Werewolf. Once the pack has winning numbers, it's time to stop bluffing and start gloating, no? ~Brought to you by the Foundation for Gratuitous Werewolf Comparisons.
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12-05-2017, 09:32 AM | #9 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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12-05-2017, 10:39 AM | #10 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
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But then (appropriately enough) he opens his mouth, and reveals what he doesn't know - 'but to send them as spies into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly', he says, instantly telling Gandalf that he doesn't know about the Ring. But he's still saying 'spies', plural, and here Gandalf (who still has no reason to doubt that both Frodo and Sam are prisoners) is simply lucky: he doesn't say anything to confirm that plural. Then the Mouth puts his foot in it: he stops using vague plurals, and speaks of a single spy. Possibly the plural was a deliberate ploy (to try and tease out any information the Company might have about the inconsistency in Shagrat's story), possible just sloppy languages; whichever way it goes, instantly, Gandalf knows that only one hobbit was captured. He can't be sure which (the sword says Sam, the cloak says nothing, the vest says Frodo), but he can be confident that there is still a good chance that a Ringbearer is free in Mordor. He doesn't let it slip - telling the Mouth that would be the height of folly! - but it informs his actions thereafter. In effect, Gandalf has been brought to the exact same knowledge the reader has at this point. As an aside: it's a real pity that no adaptation of the books will ever be able to capture the suspense of this chapter. A first time reader has no idea what's happening in Mordor. They know only that Sam is alone in Mordor, Frodo a captive - and now the Mouth says he's going to be tortured! And then the battle, and it's clear that the West is losing, that everything is going to fall... and away we cut to Book 6, and the eucatastrophe comes. I'm also really surprised, looking at the chapter list, at how short the journey in Mordor is. It's only three chapters! The stuff the movies packed into the 'Endings' is twice as long as Frodo and Sam's journey from Shelob to Mount Doom! Eesh, it doesn't feel that way in the book, does it? hS |
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12-05-2017, 12:38 PM | #11 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Would it have been possible for Shagrat to have kept anything back from Sauron at that juncture?
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12-06-2017, 06:45 AM | #12 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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"That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together." And I believe Shagrat is the only possible source for that information (such as it was). Sounds like he might have changed his story several times, actually. Anyway, I don't think the Mouth's failure to mention the presence of a second "spy" is, by itself, what tipped Gandalf off- he doesn't openly show scepticism until somewhat later, and then it pertains to the Mouth's "haggling". I'd say it's more that there's an accumulation of "tells" that make it clear that the Ring hasn't been recovered and that, in fact, he has no idea what the "spy's" real mission was (cf. my points and Huinesoron's).
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