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Old 05-18-2014, 08:29 AM   #41
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Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?
Alcoholic drinks definitely were known and imbibed in Middle-earth. In The Hobbit, the butler and chief guard of the Wood-elves had enough wine to make them pass out, allowing Bilbo and the Dwarves to escape.
In FOTR, it was noted that in the aftermath of Bilbo's party, wheelbarrows had to be used to remove guests that had "inadvertently remained behind", and when Frodo jumped onto the table at the Prancing Pony in Bree, it was surmised that he was drunk. In The Two Towers Faramir gave wine to Frodo and Sam, and drank it in Minas Tirith himself.

Why would it take a laboratory to produce ethyl alcohol? Drinks containing it have been made by various processes for thousands of years in our world. There are still peoples that utilize traditional methods even today. Why should it be any different in Tolkien's world?
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:31 AM   #42
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"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?
You can make it in labs. Or you can make it in your own home. People have made ale and wine fore millennia before laboratories. My parents had a wine making phase when I was young and we had demijohns glugging away. You ferment grape juice with yeast and the sugar turns into alcohol. The alcohol meant it was safer to drink ale or wine than most water, though they used to drink a weak beer called small ale in olden days which meant at least some work got done. Butterbur brewed his own ale, making the Pony what is called a microbrewery.
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:36 AM   #43
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"Finger Food"? I have heard of it.
Did the Elves know Hobbits well enough to invite them on dinners?
Another question that has never been answered to me. What about wine? Wine contains alcohol. Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?
Beer and wine have been around for thousands of years. Well before labs were ever invented. In fact, beer and wine are two of the three fundamentals of civilization; those, and prostitution.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:05 AM   #44
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There is significant evidence in the sil to suggest that elves regularly hunted and ate meat.
The only specification I think was for green elves who were veggies.
Or is my memory faulty?
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:45 AM   #45
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To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, The War of the Jewels, Quendi and Eldar, Appendix B. Elvish Names for the Dwarves.
The Eldar did not at first recognize [the Petty Dwarves] as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. (…) The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves (…) and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the aquaintance of the Naugrim, [they] were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. There were then few of them surviving.
I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.

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And, Yes, I asked this question because in The Hobbit 1, Dwarves are NOT served meat.
Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.

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Did the Hobbits, Dwarves and Men really drink "alcohol"? Alcohol is prepared chemically, in Labs. Did people in Middle-Earth prepare it chemically? How?
My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:49 AM   #46
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Lotrelf, suggest you look up the various techniques of wine-making, beer-brewing etc.

Alcohol is certainly *not* a modern invention- to be honest, I'm really quite amazed that you could think so.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:00 PM   #47
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May be from a "dry" culture... unlike yours and mine Nerwen dear
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Old 06-10-2014, 04:02 PM   #48
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I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves....
A little known fact about the elves is that "short order" cooks were in high demand. One of their specialties were Fili Mignon.
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Old 06-10-2014, 05:05 PM   #49
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One of their specialties were Fili Mignon.
Not to mention Chicken Balinese.
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:11 AM   #50
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Not to mention Chicken Balinese.
And Nori Sushi!
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Old 06-11-2014, 05:18 PM   #51
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And Nori Sushi!
And a nice joint of Beefur.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:18 PM   #52
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Lotrelf, suggest you look up the various techniques of wine-making, beer-brewing etc.

Alcohol is certainly *not* a modern invention- to be honest, I'm really quite amazed that you could think so.
Actually, yes. But there's no one here who drinks-- not someone I know personally; and I never paid attention in my Chemistry class where these techniques were explained- may they had something told about that too. Well, I'm not interested in it, so I'll leave it to it.
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:27 PM   #53
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To everyone who says elves didn't hunt for sport:

I give you two options - either the elves did hunt for fun, or they ate dwarves.
They ate dwarves? I think that's Sauron's job to do- something that I already mentioned.

Quote:
Considering how rude the elves were in PJ's Hobbit, I wouldn't be surprised at all if serving 'lesser' food was just one more way to slight the dwarves. Now, being a (very flexible) vegetarian myself, I'm not calling veggie food lesser per se, but you have to admit that lettuce doesn't constitute much of a meal.
More than the Elves I found dwarves were rude and mannerless. This is why I was too suprised to see them in the book. Though I didn't like their initial behaviour with Bilbo.

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My little brother brews the most amazing beer in his dorm's basement, which is hardly a lab.
Cool! 8-)
That's all I can say.
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Old 06-16-2014, 07:00 AM   #54
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More than the Elves I found dwarves were rude and mannerless. This is why I was too suprised to see them in the book. Though I didn't like their initial behaviour with Bilbo.
Yeah that's one of my massive problems with Peter Jackson; no nuances. If there's a general vague enmity between elves and dwarves, it has to be demonstrated every single chance they get. He and his team are building up black-and-whiteness where there's supposed to be shades of grey.

In the films, the dwarves were rude and mannerless, and the elves haughty and disdainful. Hence I wouldn't be surprised if serving a subpar dinner to the dwarves, accompanied with music and all, was an act of slight with finesse, whether it be in revenge for their poor manners or as a general "eww dwarves" notion. What saddens me most is that neither of the races is supposed to be like that.
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Old 06-16-2014, 11:43 PM   #55
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Yeah that's one of my massive problems with Peter Jackson; no nuances. If there's a general vague enmity between elves and dwarves, it has to be demonstrated every single chance they get. He and his team are building up black-and-whiteness where there's supposed to be shades of grey.

In the films, the dwarves were rude and mannerless, and the elves haughty and disdainful. Hence I wouldn't be surprised if serving a subpar dinner to the dwarves, accompanied with music and all, was an act of slight with finesse, whether it be in revenge for their poor manners or as a general "eww dwarves" notion. What saddens me most is that neither of the races is supposed to be like that.
Yep! Professor Tolkien's characters are grey shaded--neither black nor white. And despite showing them flawed they are shown lovable and that they are. Movies seem to rob this from the characters.
Though in the book I found Dwarves quite ungrateful. They were cool when Gandalf was with them, but when he left they would be angry, why? When Bilbo did more than he himself had imagined to do, still for Arkenstone Thorin forgot all! Perhaps this is because of the naive understanding of the text and characters; and I'd certainly like to change my opinion about them. But so far many things done by Thorin and company, I didn't find "noble". Yet, I like them all.
For the Elves, I hadn't liked Elrond in LotR:TTT much, and couldn't like him TH too. While in the book he is a different character. Perhaps what you said is true. I'll stop now.
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Old 09-20-2014, 12:59 PM   #56
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Yep! Professor Tolkien's characters are grey shaded--neither black nor white. And despite showing them flawed they are shown lovable and that they are. Movies seem to rob this from the characters.
Though in the book I found Dwarves quite ungrateful. They were cool when Gandalf was with them, but when he left they would be angry, why? When Bilbo did more than he himself had imagined to do, still for Arkenstone Thorin forgot all! Perhaps this is because of the naive understanding of the text and characters; and I'd certainly like to change my opinion about them. But so far many things done by Thorin and company, I didn't find "noble". Yet, I like them all.
For the Elves, I hadn't liked Elrond in LotR:TTT much, and couldn't like him TH too. While in the book he is a different character. Perhaps what you said is true. I'll stop now.
I agree. I never liked how Peter Jackson portrayed Elrond in the movie, nor did I like how elves were essentially portrayed as hippies.
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Old 11-17-2014, 02:08 AM   #57
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To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.
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Old 11-17-2014, 03:42 PM   #58
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To put this question in different context; Are Germans sober?

A great deal many are, but there are also a great deal who stay in pubs and bars all day.
It's similar to asking whether humans are vegetarians. The response you get will be different depending on who you ask.

I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:56 PM   #59
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I don't think that this analogy is very helpful. Elves are a literary concept and thus constructed in a certain way. This is especially important when it comes to a writer like Tolkien who seldom tried to write certain societies as diverse as a real society would be. On the contrary, the societies, people and persons in middle-earth are described in a mythological manner and can share the same properties. I guess one should not try to examine or explain middle-earth like it was real. Nonetheless I don't see vegetarianism as a commonly shared ideology among elves either. I guess it's a more recent fantasy trope (maybe even dating back to those LOTR readers/fans in the 60's; darn hippies!) that elves have to be
in total sync with nature, in every way.
While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.
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Old 11-17-2014, 07:00 PM   #60
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While the question is different, the nature of the answer is the same. It would depend entirely on the tribe of elves. I could see that higher class elves like Elrond would refrain from eating meats, but travelling elves would eat it just as much as a human would.

Questions which have cultural variables don't have one set answer.
Well, when it comes to Tolkien's writings many question with cultural variables have exactly one set answers. For instance: The dwarven societies are structured and characterized in the same way. They are outstanding craftsman and merchants. They stick with themselves and are secretive about their own cultur. I'm trying to explain that it wouldn't be out of line or surprising if all of Tolkien's elves shared the same attitude when it comes to eating meat. If you answer this question by simply refering to the diversity of people in the real world you're ignoring this. To give a proper and satisfactory answer we would have to examine the texts instead of projecting a realistic or logical view on the matter.

Your very examples show that this is a problem. The only elven tribe we could more or less) reasonably suspect to be all vegetarian are the Laiquendi, the evles of Ossiriand. The text hints that they have a problem with killing animals and yet they live scattered and withdram in the woods. Beren wandered and lived in the woods of Doriath for a very long time but he vowed not to eat animals. This doesn't make sense from a realistic point of view but from a literary or poetic one. The Noldor and Sindar, on the other hand, are civilised, wiser and by all means a higher class of elves and we do find great and prominent huntsman among them.

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Old 11-17-2014, 07:43 PM   #61
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Well, when it comes to Tolkien's writings many question with cultural variables have exactly one set answers. For instance: The dwarven societies are structured and characterized in the same way. They are outstanding craftsman and merchants. They stick with themselves and are secretive about their own cultur. I'm trying to explain that it wouldn't be out of line or surprising if all of Tolkien's elves shared the same attitude when it comes to eating meat. If you answer this question by simply refering to the diversity of people in the real world you're ignoring this. To give a proper and satisfactory answer we would have to examine the texts instead of projecting a realistic or logical view on the matter.

Your very examples show that this is a problem. The only elven tribe we could more or less) reasonably suspect to be all vegetarian are the Laiquendi, the evles of Ossiriand. The text hints that they have a problem with killing animals and yet they live scattered and withdram in the woods. Beren wandered and lived in the woods of Doriath for a very long time but he vowed not to eat animals. This doesn't make sense from a realistic point of view but from a literary or poetic one. The Noldor and Sindar, on the other hand, are civilised, wiser and by all means a higher class of elves and we do find great and prominent huntsman among them.
While your point on dwarves stands, Tolkien had few references to vegetarianism among the elves. Dwarves were stereotypically greedy craftsmen, and this stands for most of them in Middle Earth. Elves were never really given vegetarianism as a defining trait like the dwarves were to craftsmanship.

The defining elven trait would be musicianship, as there is reference to it in a lot of older media.
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Old 11-18-2014, 12:33 PM   #62
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Unless by sober you mean teetotal I don't think it is analogous. Sobriety is a state which fluctuates for the individual usually, on a continuum from those who never are never the least intoxicated to never not. Unless you are a total abstainer or incipient alcoholic it will vary. Vegetarianism is a way of life a perpetual state through religious or moral conviction or necessity.

Fact is that choosing ones diet is a luxury not available to many people throughout history or even now in much of the world. People ate what there was and didn't waste it. Modern food waste is pure decadence.. we fly out of season food round the world or grow it in artificial convictions and then often it is left to rot.

I think many think elves might be vegetarian because of their affinity with animals. However we know they hunt and they use wood though they love trees too. If you look at Legolas' comment about the orkish love of destruction then it seems to me that they would eat meat as they use wood. Not killing more that they need and eating "nose to tail". It seems inconceivable that they would hunt merely for sport.
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Old 11-19-2014, 10:36 AM   #63
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It seems inconceivable that they would hunt merely for sport.
As Aganzir pointed out, this commits you to saying that Elves ate Petty-dwarves before realizing that they were sapient people.

Moreover, I have the distinct impression that Celegorm, Curufin, Amrod, and Amras hunted for sport. That is to say, maybe they ate what they killed, but they definitely went out and killed it for fun, not because they were hungry.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:07 PM   #64
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Does it? Sport and food not only reason for hunting - potential threat elimination also possible. Gimli and Legolas hunted many orcs and that was neither sport nor food. I still think it likely that most elves would eat what they hunted and I don't think the sons of Feanor are necessarily typical Elves. Kinslayers are hardly likely to have qualms about shedding animal life. Anyway hunting for sport is hardly evidence of vegetarianism. I can quite see there might be moral objections to killing animals but not eating them once they are dead is just wasteful. No doubt Dean Swift might have made a modest proposal re eating dwarves though I think you would have to cook them very slowly and they would be a nightmare to skin...
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:30 PM   #65
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Does it? Sport and food not only reason for hunting - potential threat elimination also possible.
That's true, and I suppose it's possible that the petty-dwarves were hunted because they were thought to be a threat. I think the more straightforward reading of 'Quendi & Eldar' is that they were hunted for sport, but I admit that's not the only reading.

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Anyway hunting for sport is hardly evidence of vegetarianism.
Oh, certainly. I was not arguing for Elvish vegetarianism; indeed, there is no evidence of it whatsoever as far as I can tell. The only vegetarian I'm aware of in Middle-earth is Beren.
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:05 PM   #66
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Oh, certainly. I was not arguing for Elvish vegetarianism; indeed, there is no evidence of it whatsoever as far as I can tell. The only vegetarian I'm aware of in Middle-earth is Beren.
Maybe Beorn? TH doesn't explicitly say so, but the only foods I see actually listed served in his house seem to have been bread, honey, nuts, fruits and mead - so perhaps ...

Possibly Bombadil & Goldberry too? They served the hobbits cream, honeycomb, bread, butter, milk, cheese, green herbs & ripe berries.
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:25 PM   #67
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Maybe Beorn? TH doesn't explicitly say so, but the only foods I see actually listed served in his house seem to have been bread, honey, nuts, fruits and mead - so perhaps ...

Possibly Bombadil & Goldberry too? They served the hobbits cream, honeycomb, bread, butter, milk, cheese, green herbs & ripe berries.
Gandalf did advise Bilbo against mentioning the word "furrier" within Beorn's hearing, suggesting that Beorn was very possibly not in favor of killing animals, and the lack of meat at his table seems to support that.

As for Bombadil, he doesn't seem to have kept any animals, other than Fatty Lumpkin, and meat wouldn't appear to have been otherwise available to him.

That said, it might be hard to say sometimes whether vegetarianism in Middle-earth, whether it existed or not, was a conscious choice of lifestyle, or simply borne of necessity when groups had no ready access to meat.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:21 PM   #68
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Quendi And Eldar relates that the Petty-dwarves attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places...

... thus (in my opinion) the Petty-dwarves were hunted -- although it does say the Eldar at first thought them a kind of cunning animal too, noting that they rarely saw them in good light.

Well that's how I interpreted this much anyway.

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Old 11-19-2014, 10:36 PM   #69
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Gandalf did advise Bilbo against mentioning the word "furrier" within Beorn's hearing, suggesting that Beorn was very possibly not in favor of killing animals, and the lack of meat at his table seems to support that.

As for Bombadil, he doesn't seem to have kept any animals, other than Fatty Lumpkin, and meat wouldn't appear to have been otherwise available to him.

That said, it might be hard to say sometimes whether vegetarianism in Middle-earth, whether it existed or not, was a conscious choice of lifestyle, or simply borne of necessity when groups had no ready access to meat.
In medieval times, it was hard to be a healthy person without eating meat. For the peasants, meat was a luxury, but they weren't vegetarian.
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Old 11-20-2014, 06:49 AM   #70
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I was just thinking of a certain scene in the books (sadly don't have books with me, can't quote, but would appreciate if somebody did) from Flotsam and Jetsam that may be of interest. What kind of food do Pippin and Merry offer? They don't have much - beer, bread and honey, ham. Nothing says that or dear Legolas specifically did not eat the ham, but I've always assumed everybody ate everything.

So if it makes you happy, you can debate whether Legolas was surviving on bread and honey or if his behaviour proves that Elves are not vegetarian. I don't really feel like arguing it either way.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:22 AM   #71
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In medieval times, it was hard to be a healthy person without eating meat. For the peasants, meat was a luxury, but they weren't vegetarian.
Particularly if you are not really agrarian, as some of the elves probably were not (i.e. I not sure ALL the elves had farms around). Getting enough protein to stay alive is hard unless you are actively growing something you can stockpile, or live in a tropical region where there are seeds and nuts of some sort year round. That's one of the big reasons that most of the major agrarian societies relied so heavily on legumes of one kind or another. Once your population gets big enough that major meat consumption for everyone is not longer feasible, you NEED that pulse crop to make up the gap. Or why I say "Contrary to what most people thing, a hill of beans amounts to quite a lot." Even dairy can only get you so far, as you have to make sure that you dairy stock is perpetually lactating (not always easy to do, if you can't convince your rams and bucks to do their job on a given doe/ewe or you're a peasant family with only one or two milk cows who needs to find someone ELSE with a bull to "freshen" her.) or get really, really good at making hard cheese. It's a little hard to imagine Beren spending his whole autumn gathering nuts and acorns with the mania of a squirrel, but that is probably what he would have to do I he had really committed to a no meat lifestyle (unless I am right, and the animals got so close to him that he could milk the deer and collect the unfertilized eggs of the wild birds. and even those would be seasonal)
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:29 AM   #72
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So if it makes you happy, you can debate whether Legolas was surviving on bread and honey or if his behaviour proves that Elves are not vegetarian. I don't really feel like arguing it either way.
Honestly I’m not sure why anyone does, at this stage, as it seems to me that the case was closed a long time ago. I think it’s worth pointing out that the original question arises, not from anything Tolkien wrote about his Elves, but from Jackson's portrayal of them in "Unexpected Journey". The OP was puzzled at the discrepancy between this and the description in the book of the Wood Elves feasting on “roast meats”.
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Old 12-27-2014, 03:22 PM   #73
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Elven lifestyle is more about use of nature out of necessity, rather than "because we can".
Dunno, in Valinor which is paradise, do they really need to hunt and kill for food? Hunting in Tolkien's day wasn't really seen as that bad a thing. Though, Nimrodel despised the 'Elves of the West' for bringing war and strife, perhaps hunting is a sign of this. The Eldar really weren't one with nature especially compared to the Avari/Silvan Elves. Not very natural living in big stone towers and wearing steel armour.
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Old 12-30-2014, 05:29 PM   #74
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Dunno, in Valinor which is paradise, do they really need to hunt and kill for food? Hunting in Tolkien's day wasn't really seen as that bad a thing.
I assume so, I can't really picture Yavanna or Orome zapping freshly cooked roasts onto the plates of the Elves. Likewise I also think they still had to build their own houses, grow grain, farm animals, weave cloth, tan leather, forge tools etc. They just had an easier time doing these things than humans or even their brethren in Endor.


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Though, Nimrodel despised the 'Elves of the West' for bringing war and strife, perhaps hunting is a sign of this. The Eldar really weren't one with nature especially compared to the Avari/Silvan Elves. Not very natural living in big stone towers and wearing steel armour.
I don't really see "hunting" as equal to war and strive, rather I think that Nimrodel had lived through the War of Sauron against the Elves as well as the last Alliance and blamed the Eldar for Sauron's presence so close to her home, perhaps believing that he had followed the Eldar from Beleriand.
I'm pretty sure the Sylvan Elves hunted already, the Eldar that had come to Mirkwood had adopted Sylvan culture, still they hunted and ate meat.

Personally I think the Green Elves of Ossirand were just their own culture and had developed their ways of not hunting animals and cutting wood for dwellings only after Denethor had died in order to be as invisible to intruders as possible. If these aspects were really true for all of the Green Elven tribes (which probably were very disconnected from one another) Calling the humans "murders of animals" can mean a lot, perhaps the Elves just meant the men were hunting more than they needed to survive?

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Old 12-30-2014, 08:15 PM   #75
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Personally I think the Green Elves of Ossirand were just their own culture and had developed their ways of not hunting animals and cutting wood for dwellings only after Denethor had died in order to be as invisible to intruders as possible. If these aspects were really true for all of the Green Elven tribes (which probably were very disconnected from one another) Calling the humans "murders of animals" can mean a lot, perhaps the Elves just meant the men were hunting more than they needed to survive?
It seems to me that the Green-elves saw Men as more guilty of 'disturbing the peace' than any more substantial crime. They probably saw the potential Men had for rapidly increasing their numbers and settling nearby, and were just looking for some excuse to pawn them off on Finrod, and hope he would take them out of the area.
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Old 12-30-2014, 10:39 PM   #76
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Consider the Plains Indian reaction to the white buffalo hunters. It wasn't that the Sioux and Arapaho had any objection to hunting buffalo, per se......
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Old 12-31-2014, 03:26 PM   #77
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Would elves be vegans if they ate ents? Or aint ents edible?
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Old 12-31-2014, 05:11 PM   #78
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Would elves be vegans if they ate ents? Or aint ents edible?
Of course. Skin-bok choy and Quinoa-beam were on the Isengard dinner menu. Saruman just wanted to turn over a new leaf.
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Old 12-31-2014, 07:32 PM   #79
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Well, Skinbark is supposed to be sort of like a birch tree, so I imagine his blood/sap can be boiled down to syrup, or used to make "hard" birch beer.

Actually I think you can make syrup out of oak sap too (I know you can make honey out of it, via aphids and sapin) so Treebeard and Leaflock may be at risk too (Leaflock is an oakish ent, right. He looked oaky in the PJ movie, but I seem to remember something about him actually being meant to be like an ash, or a beech.)
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Old 01-01-2015, 06:04 AM   #80
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Particularly if you are not really agrarian, as some of the elves probably were not
Most of the Noldor and many of the Sindar were actually quite urbanized. Elves (or at least the Eldar) appear to have liked living in cities.

Tirion-on-Tuna, Alqualonde, Gondolin, Nargothrond, Menegroth, Ost-in-Edhil, Caras Galadhon, Mithlond, even Thraduil's caves - they were all cities.
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