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Gil-Galad 02-20-2003 10:23 PM

Cirdan what?
wasn't in the Simarilion cirdan in Falas and weren't they Sindar? The how come he took refuge at Mithlond near Lindon a Noldor realm. so is he Noldor or sindar?

balrogman 02-20-2003 11:35 PM

according toencyclopedia of arda Cirdan was neither, he was Lord of the Teleri.

Adanadhel 02-21-2003 12:07 AM

The Sindar are a sub-group of Teleri, so he could be both (Teleri and Sindar, not Noldor)...

doug*platypus 02-21-2003 05:33 AM

Good call, balrogman. He wasn't a Sindar. The Sindar were the Grey-Elves, so named because they followed Elw Singollo (Greymantle).

Crdan was more an ally of Thingol than an underling, although he later would have had many Sindar in his care.

Findegil 02-21-2003 06:15 AM

Cirdan was a relative of Olwe, so he was clearly of the third clan, the Lindar or Teleri. When Elwe was lost he was one of the Elves that searched form him in vain and in that way missed the island-ferry. He had been ever the foremost of the elves in the craft of building ships and desired greatly to come to Valinor. so when he came late to the shore and saw the ferry fare of in the see, he cried that he would build a ship to follow. But than he received a message from the Valar in his mind (Ulmo may be) that commanded him to stay and to practise his craft for years, because his vessels as yet wouldn't stand the difficult journey, and in the end his craft would be of the uttermost importance for the elves, when with his help could a important messenger reach Valinor. He accepted the task and from that time on had a deeper inside into the future than any body else in Middle-Earth.

He became the Lord of Falathrim which were Elves that had desired the journey and missing the ferry, settled down at the cost and build havens and ships. They were more friendly to the Noldor but they were Sindar, because when Thingol appeared out of Nan Elmoth he claimed to be King of all Elves in Beleriand, which were all of Telerin origin. Cirdan certainly accepted that claim. But he lived some what apart from Thingol and had a large following so Thingol was in a position of an Overlord to him. After the first battle with Morgoth Cirdan and Thingol were separated by a great host of foes and later by desolated lands and a realm of the Noldor.
When the havens of the Falas were destroyed Cirdan fled to the isle of Balar and build their the last refuge for the survivors of the war. The People that gathered there were of mixed origin: Sindar, Noldor, Nandor, Men of the three houses.

When Earendil made his journey he had build the ship with the help of Cirdan. And thus Cirdans tasked was done. But still he stayed in Middle-Earth providing the ships for the other elves that would like to set sail.

With all the elves of Balar that wouldn't jet part from Middle-Earth and were willing to live together in such a mixed community he removed his abbot to Lindon and build there the Haven of Mithlond. Lindon was in no way a purely Noldorin realm. The number of Noldor might be even less than that of the Sindar in that country.


Inderjit Sanghera 02-21-2003 06:36 AM

Harlindon, to the south was mostly populated by Sindar, and was a fief, ruled by Celeborn, under Gil-galad, for a while.

It is probable that Forlindon was mainly populated by Noldorin Elves.


"Cirdan was a Telerin elf, one of the highest that was not transported to Valinor but became known as the Sindar, the Grey-Elves...Cirdan was akin to Olwe...But Cirdan and his people (Falathrim) remained in many ways distinct from the rest of the Sindar. They retained the old name is said that for the love of his kin and alliegance Cirdan was the leader of those who sought for Elwe HoME 12; Last Writings

Cirdna was the lord of the Falathrim, and he was especially close in friendship with Finrod, who, I believe had a tower close to his havens. (Barad Nimrais?). Several times, in HoME 11, Tolkien thought about making the Elves of the Falas, being over-ruled by Finrod and Nargothond.

Gil-Galad 02-21-2003 04:43 PM

but wasn't Gil-galad Noldor?

Tar Elenion 02-21-2003 11:40 PM

Gil-galad was variously descended from Feanor, Finrod (or Inglor) Felagund, Fingon, and Orodreth.
Here is a link to a 'History' of his various parentages:

Depending on his parentage at the time, Gil-galad had a mixed ancestry, including varying amounts of Noldo, Sinda, Vanya and Teler blood.

Inderjit Sanghera 02-22-2003 07:26 AM


but wasn't Gil-galad Noldor?
quote by Gil-Galad

I don't undersatnd-when did anyone say he wasn't a Noldor?

Gil-Galad 02-27-2003 07:59 AM

i didn't know that the Noldor had an alliance with the Teleri becasue i thought they were at war with the Sindar and Cirdan was in Falas

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