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-   -   And came there never again as a living man. (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=15525)

TheGreatElvenWarrior 06-18-2009 03:44 PM

And came there never again as a living man.
 
My family watched disk two of the Fellowship of the Ring last night and just for fun I brought my own battered copy upstairs to the TV room and pointed out the inaccuracies. This has nothing to do with my question, but it is when I found this passage...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fellowship of the Ring, book two, Lothlorien
And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man. (emphassis added)

I was wondering what this means. Whether it mans that Aragorn had died and went to Lothlorien after or what? It just puzzled me that it says "came there never again as a living man."

Inziladun 06-18-2009 03:47 PM

I always took that to mean simply that he never returned there for the rest of his life.
As for his spirit, who can say?

Gordis 06-18-2009 04:14 PM

I think it is the same sort of seemingly ambiguous, poetic statement as the words about the Witch-King:
Quote:

But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.
;)

The ultimate fate of Men remains a big unanswered question...

TheGreatElvenWarrior 06-18-2009 04:19 PM

So, you're saying that it is just a poetic statement, that it just means that Aragorn just didn't go there again? It has noting to do with him going there after death?

Oddwen 06-18-2009 08:27 PM

Right. He may have returned there in thought, but never again in body.

Sardy 06-19-2009 07:58 AM

I'd never noticed that passage, or at least never gave thought to its implications. The question that I'm left with now is why did Aragorn, as King Elessar in the Fourth age, not ever visit Lothlorien? After the War of the Ring had ended, my impression was that he had spent much time travelling Middle-earth, even visiting the Shire. Was he simply too busy to ever return to Lothlorien?

One would think that his relationship with the elves, and his marriage to Arwen in particular, would almost necessitate a visit at some point...

I wonder if there is a particular reason that he never returned? Was he unwelcome there?

Inziladun 06-19-2009 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sardy (Post 600698)
I'd never noticed that passage, or at least never gave thought to its implications. The question that I'm left with now is why did Aragorn, as King Elessar in the Fourth age, not ever visit Lothlorien? After the War of the Ring had ended, my impression was that he had spent much time travelling Middle-earth, even visiting the Shire. Was he simply too busy to ever return to Lothlorien?

One would think that his relationship with the elves, and his marriage to Arwen in particular, would almost necessitate a visit at some point...

I wonder if there is a particular reason that he never returned? Was he unwelcome there?

Too busy doesn't seem all that unlikely to me. He had a kingdom to look after. He did do some traveling obviously, but that seems to have primarily been between Gondor and Arnor. There is no evidence he even returned to Rivendell again, his childhood home.
Why would he have felt a pressing need to go back to Lórien? Nostalgia? He doesn't seem much disposed to that to me. Galadriel and Celeborn both were gone, and I don't see much to draw him back there. After all, Arwen was with him.

Findegil 06-19-2009 03:08 PM

Considering that it was at Cerin Amroth that Arwen in the end laid down to recive the gift of Eru to mortals, I am not that sure that Aragorn had no part in this as fea coming to her before he left for Mandos. We have seen such things before with Gorlim the Unhappy, traitor of Barahir, or Beleg comforting Túrin at Eithel Ivrin.

Respectfully
Findegil

The Might 06-27-2009 09:03 AM

Great post, Findegil, I was just thinking the same thing while reading through this.
Especially due to his deeds he may have been granted some time in Middle-earth to remain there until Arwen also passed away, so that they could embark onto this unknown journey together.

This idea is also supported by the fact that Beren and Luthien died together on Tol Galen. As such, Arwen and Aragorn were then reunited at the place they first met... quite romantic.

Tuor in Gondolin 06-27-2009 07:13 PM

Quote:

This idea is also supported by the fact that Beren and Luthien died together on Tol Galen.
Which makes all the odder Arwen's essentially loss of faith at the
future upon Aragorn's death. She just had to recall family history.

Laurinquë 08-03-2009 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man. (emphassis added)

I remember reading that line over and over again when I read FotR for the first time; it really struck as being poetic and somehow hopeful. It always seemed to me to imply that he would return some day, as a dead man I suppose. All the same, it's a favourite quote of mine.

Bêthberry 08-03-2009 10:48 AM

I've always thought that, with the passing of Nenya and Galadriel, Lothlorien ultimately faded away. The land itself may still exist, but it's nature altered in that it now admitted of change and decay. This was one reason, to me, why the site of Arwen's grave became lost to human knowledge.

CSteefel 09-01-2009 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sardy (Post 600698)
I'd never noticed that passage, or at least never gave thought to its implications. The question that I'm left with now is why did Aragorn, as King Elessar in the Fourth age, not ever visit Lothlorien? After the War of the Ring had ended, my impression was that he had spent much time travelling Middle-earth, even visiting the Shire. Was he simply too busy to ever return to Lothlorien?

One would think that his relationship with the elves, and his marriage to Arwen in particular, would almost necessitate a visit at some point...

I wonder if there is a particular reason that he never returned? Was he unwelcome there?

I believe that Lothlorien was deserted relatively soon after the departure of Galadriel. Celeborn evidently lived there a short while, but then went to live with the sons of Elrond. So I doubt that Aragorn had any reason to go...

But you may be right, that this prefigures the death of Arwen on Cerin Amroth, and perhaps goes back to what Aragorn says just before he dies:
Quote:

Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory.
It seems possible that Aragorn and Arwen are reunited at this site in death...


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