The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/index.php)
-   The Books (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   How to Locate the Lost Palantiri in the Reunited Kingdom (http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=18641)

Ivriniel 02-25-2014 09:43 PM

How to Locate the Lost Palantiri in the Reunited Kingdom
 
Background

I've always loved how Tolkien pointed to the ancient wonders of the First Age in tantalising remnants of amazing artefacts in Middle Earth during the fading years. We know of Numenor that through Silmarien's line in Andunie, who were the forebears of Aragorn in the Reunited Kingdom, the Numenoreans in Exile were gifted with guardianship of the Palantiri, as means to scry and communicate, presumably, with the Eldar in Tol Eresea and Valinor. We also know Feanor made the Palantiri, and it has been stated and implied that there were more than just the seven we know of.

Of the Palantiri and their functioning, we know there was a Master Stone, in what appeared to be a system of 'one way mirrors' where the Osgiliath Stone was the master stone, but only in Middle Earth. We also know that the Stone of Amon Sul was big, could not be carried by one man, and seems to have been the master stone of the north, but of the two stones (Osgiliath versus Amon Sul) we are never told which could scry on which. I wonder if the North Kingdom--that is Elendil's and Isildur's not Anarion's purview--meant that Amon Sul was the ancient centre of the 'master-master' Stone of both the Northern and Southern kingdoms.

In any case, we know that there is a Stone in the ruins of the Barad Dur. I have assumed the Stone was never destroyed because they're pretty hard. Grima dropped one from Orthanc and it cracked the stair case at the base of the tower. That was Numenorean-crafted hard stone that the Ents could not rend, and not for lack of trying. The Ents, I remember, tried to bring down Orthanc and a group of them could not break the stone.

We also know that two stones, the Annuminas Stone and the Amon Sul Stone, were lost in the Ice Bay of Forochel when Arvedui fled the Witchking (head Nazgul). That was during the time of the Battle of Fornost when Carn Dum invaded Arnor (by that time the realm was already Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur, and we know Rhudaur fell first). I seem to remember Eanur, second last King of Gondor arrived too late to assist Arvedui, but with Glorfindel's, Rivendell's and Lindon's help, vanquished the Witch King.

As for the Stone of Emyn Beriad, it looked Westward. This implies something about the Stones. Remember that there are others in the West, presumably, Westernesse scryers can talk and communicate with Middle Earth Scryers


Cheers
Ivriniel (Imrahil's older sister. She thinks her brother was pretty spoilt in that princely son kind of way and has ideas of her own about Realmslore)

Ivriniel 02-25-2014 09:45 PM

Given the Background: Rescuing The Stones

1. The Osgiliath Stone

I'd have thought that it was a no-brainer for King Elessar and his five mixed-blood children to have built a series of sleuths in the Anduin at Osgiliath and to have gone on a 'mine and rescue mission'. Couldn't have been as difficult as rebuilding the doors to Minas Tirith, which was something Dwarves did with their hands tied. Given the significance of the Palantir to surveillance networks for the sparsely populated Reunited Kingdom and given the particular state of Arnor--what a couple of hundren Dunedain--I'm thinking Aragorn found the Osgiliath Stone. It was simply to heavy and big to have been flushed anywhere by the waters of the Anduin.

2. The Barad Dur stone

Another no-brainer. Off they all went to the ruins of the Barad Dur. As precedent, Galadriel trundled off to the Dol Guldur and laid bare its pits and took down its towers. I'd have imagined that rummaging through the Barad Dur was an important thing to do in the Fourth Age to stop petty sorcerers from getting hold of an ancient artefact, not the least one crafted by Feanor himself. For strategic reasons, you wouldn't want that to happen. Whether or not the Stone was usable again--of course it was. Aragorn, and the Line of Elros are the rightful custodians and Aragorn demonstrated capacity to out-will Sauron in that Stone-to-Stone confrontation where he wrested the Orthanc Stone free of Sauron's clutches.

Importantly, we *were* told that Aragorn and a crew took down the Minas Morgal in a 'search-and-destroy' mission. This was done as a matter of strategic significance for the Reunited Kingdom in order to ensure that evil things were destroyed and removed from that haunted place. I see no reason the Dunedain did not do the same for, not only the Barad Dur, but also Cirith Ungol.

3. The Stones in the Ice Bay of Forochel

Harder but doable.

Step 1. Contact the Emyn Beriad Stone (now in the Uttermost West with Galadriel and Elrond) with one of the other stones. I suspect they took the stone so they could keep in touch with their ole pal, Aragorn. Or, contact the Elves in the West with a Middle Earth stone. Doable? I'd say 'yes'. Do 'bans apply'. I'd say 'no'. They're on the Straight Road. Surely, dear Aragorn wanted to give his ole mates a call, from time to time. And surely, the Stones were set in place by Eldar in Valinor.

Step 2. Get advice about the lost Stone's location. Scry for them. The Stones can look through mountains, for goodness sake, and weren't obstructed by land, sea or air. You just needed to focus on location. So, off you go, scrying the Ice Bay, and down in the depths.

Step 3. Shipwreck Diving. Get smarty pants Dwarves to craft a Dwarfy submarine, or devise yourselves some kind of underwater rig. Doable for their technological and magical capacities--of course it is. Where's Ulmo when you need him? He'd have a bunch of Maia under his leadership who the good ole Dunedain could have had a chat to in the Westernesse to get some ideas about 'how to'. Thoronder is the Maian equivalent of the same for the airs. You don't need magic to do this. What about a stone submarine. Or, winches, rope, stuff like that, once you know the Stones' whereabouts.

Did the Stones in the Ice Bay get covered over time? I'd say not. Shipwrecks don't seem to, because there's often not much happening in the way of flow and currents. I'd imagine the ship wreck's pretty much still down there, though what a couple of thousand years would do to it, well that depends on how Numenoreans built boats. If it was anything like the spells associated with Adunaic and imbued into their fortresses, there is some likelihood that the sunken ship has survived the ages. I'd say Arvedui's shipwreck would still be there in rotting bits and pieces, with, I'd say, a great deal of submerged treasure. There were materials and items central to the North Kingdom in Arvedui's boat.

On Precedents for Rescuing Artefacts

1. Beren and Luthien and confrontation at Thangorodrim for rescuing the Silmaril.
2. The Nauglamir, Nogrod and Belegost.
3. The One Ring and being found in the Anduin.
4. The Rescuing of Celebrian (Galadriel's daughter/Elrond's wife) by Elladan, Elrohir and Noldor of Rivendell from the Goblin hoards of the Misty Mountains.
5. The finding of the two Elven swords and Bilbo's mithril coat in the Troll hoard in the Hobbit.


Cheers
Ivriniel (Imrahil's older sister. She thinks her brother was pretty spoilt in that princely son kind of way and has ideas of her own about Realmslore)

Findegil 02-26-2014 08:59 AM

It seems that Gondor send that rescue party to Barad-Dûr [form "Unfinished Tales", Part four, Chapter III: "The Palantíri"]:
Quote:

... They were indeed unbreakable by any violence then controlled by men though some believed that great heat, such as that of Orodruin, might shatter them, and surmised that this had been the fate of the Ithil-stone in the fall of Barad-dûr.
Which means the Ithil-Stone was gone for good.

Respectfully
Findegil

Ivriniel 02-26-2014 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil (Post 689442)
It seems that Gondor send that rescue party to Barad-Dûr [form "Unfinished Tales", Part four, Chapter III: "The Palantíri"]:Which means the Ithil-Stone was gone for good.

Respectfully
Findegil

Interesting citation, I'll go back to UT and have a look. I have a problem with the flow of action-and-consequence in the conclusion because Orodruin in 100 miles from the Barad Dur, and the Tower collapsed when the Ring was unmade at the Sammath Naur. How did the Ithil Stone get tossed into the fires of Orodruin?

UT, and the additional books published by Christopher Tolkien often have numerous discrepancies, or items that are ambiguous. Not that this means the UT conclusion is false. One could surmise that ***after*** the Barad Dur collapsed, Aragorn and co went to the Barad Dur, found the Stone, and themselves tossed it into Orodruin (though why they would do that makes little sense. Aragorn could restore use of the Stone with will. No doubt though, looking into the Stone, one would get horrid visions of Sauron, at least initially. The stones record memory of their users, and Sauron used the Stone for a long time. And Denethor and the Stone's memory of his burning hands clutching the Stone and the Arnor stone is case in point. In LotR, it states that only one with exceptional will would see anything other than fire and burning hands).

Alfirin 02-26-2014 06:03 PM

I always assumed this meant that the collapse of Barad-Dur was itself rather fiery, or at least enough of a conflagration that the people there assmed it was enough to make the stone burst. Though, given that, as far as we know, no Palantir ever WAS confirmed destroyed in that manner, where the concept would come from (maybe the Noldor has some mishaps in thier creation, and passed on the warning when they presented the seven to the west.)
The problem with the Osgiliath stone plan is the one I mentioned in some earlier thread; there is a real chance the stone isn't IN the Anduin anymore. The palantiri are spheres, and the Anduin's current is swift especially that far down. I'd say it is quite possible that, within a few months of falling in, it is entierly possible the Stone would have rolled along the riverbed with the current; and is now long since sitting at the bottom of the ocean; beyond ANY ability to be retrieved.
But if you want crackpot methods I have one that would get all three out.

A. Go to Moria

B. Contact the Watcher in the Water and Convince HIM to get them.

This presumes the Watcher is
1. Alive post the vanquisment (there seems no reason he should not be)

2. Still there (with the Dwarves trying to re-colonize the area, I imagine having a ravening kraken on their doorstep would be something they'd feel would need to be "taken care of"

3. sentient enough to be reasoned with
(i.e. it isn't just a mindless beast driven by hunger and incapable of thought (if is is some sort of kraken, as some books suggested, that would be a plus; squid and octopi are pretty intelligent as sea life goes.) and

4. neutral or at least independent evil. That is, if he is evil, he's a kind that is in it for himself and can be bribed. Though what you would bribe him with beats me, fish? gold? I'd say getting him OUT of the pool would work, except most of the things I have read (unreliable as they were) seem to suggest the Watcher came up the river and made the wall that dammed it into a pool HIMSELF so he's there voluntarily and not really trapped. Unless he made the trip when he was a lot smaller, and now is too big to go back. In that case, they would have a good bargaining chip; a lot of dwarves with a lot of shovels and a lot of desire to see the damn thing gone. You just have to convince them that he's more useful freed than dead.

Ivriniel 02-26-2014 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfirin (Post 689473)
I always assumed this meant that the collapse of Barad-Dur was itself rather fiery, or at least enough of a conflagration that the people there assmed it was enough to make the stone burst. Though, given that, as far as we know, no Palantir ever WAS confirmed destroyed in that manner, where the concept would come from (maybe the Noldor has some mishaps in thier creation, and passed on the warning when they presented the seven to the west.)

As I understood it, Sauron winked out of existence and the tower collapsed, and I don't remember any fiery conflagration, though who knows? I also wonder what the Palantir recorded as Sauron--the Maia of malice, sadism and fear--whose Will suddenly turned to jelly and terror folded in upon himself as he discerned Frodo on Mount Doom and then turned the Palantir's attention to Orodruin (the Eye of Sauron thing was about his sight, bearing down upon the lands, through the Palantir).

Quote:

The problem with the Osgiliath stone plan is the one I mentioned in some earlier thread; there is a real chance the stone isn't IN the Anduin anymore. The palantiri are spheres, and the Anduin's current is swift especially that far down. I'd say it is quite possible that, within a few months of falling in, it is entierly possible the Stone would have rolled along the riverbed with the current; and is now long since sitting at the bottom of the ocean; beyond ANY ability to be retrieved.
I've heard the 'rolling stones' (pardon pun :) ) metaphor. I don't believe so, however. The Osgliath stone was *massive* and *very* heavy. And the river bed is not smooth, it would have rocks and juts and obstacles, and so, I have surmised, it just sank and either got buried, (or half buried) by sand, or caught in rocks. Think of a 2 meter diameter sphere, weighing, I'd say a quarter to a half a ton (the stone needed multiple able bodied men to lift it). I don't see any round stone dropped in the Potomac or Murray river (here in Oz) going very far at all. Floating trees, debris and so on tend to move downstream. I would say it's right under the point it fell into Anduin.

Quote:

But if you want crackpot methods I have one that would get all three out.
*grins*

Quote:

A. Go to Moria

B. Contact the Watcher in the Water and Convince HIM to get them.

This presumes the Watcher is
1. Alive post the vanquisment (there seems no reason he should not be)

2. Still there (with the Dwarves trying to re-colonize the area, I imagine having a ravening kraken on their doorstep would be something they'd feel would need to be "taken care of"

3. sentient enough to be reasoned with
(i.e. it isn't just a mindless beast driven by hunger and incapable of thought (if is is some sort of kraken, as some books suggested, that would be a plus; squid and octopi are pretty intelligent as sea life goes.) and

4. neutral or at least independent evil. That is, if he is evil, he's a kind that is in it for himself and can be bribed. Though what you would bribe him with beats me, fish? gold? I'd say getting him OUT of the pool would work, except most of the things I have read (unreliable as they were) seem to suggest the Watcher came up the river and made the wall that dammed it into a pool HIMSELF so he's there voluntarily and not really trapped. Unless he made the trip when he was a lot smaller, and now is too big to go back. In that case, they would have a good bargaining chip; a lot of dwarves with a lot of shovels and a lot of desire to see the damn thing gone. You just have to convince them that he's more useful freed than dead.
Good, lateral thinking. I'm not sure what tool of Will would be needed to negotiate with such a thing and it was a 'watchman' wasn't it. Rather careful about the Durin Doors remaining closed, and rather bent on keeping them closed. It pulled the trees growing to either side of the door down, to ensure the doors were closed. Implies sentience. Further, not of evil origin. Why would an evil watcher want good things *not* to go into Moria where there was a Balrog.

It seems to me, the watcher, being all 'wet' in water really didn't like beings of Shadow and Fire, and had an, erm, anti-Balrog disposition :).

Cheers
Ivriniel

Findegil 02-27-2014 05:34 AM

At least the vision of the Fall of Barad-dûr that Sam saw from the Sammath-Naur has some hints of a fire involved ["The Lord of the Ring"; Book VI; Chapter 3: "Mount Doom", emphasis by underlining is mine]:
Quote:

A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain.
For me the last sentences together with the quote from "Unfinished Tales" suggest a kind of volcanic erruption at the place of Barad-dûr.

About the Osgiliath stone rolling down river: The stone was not throne in by itself or at least that was how I read that passage. ["The Lord of the Ring"; "Appendix A Annals or the Kings and Rulers"; part I: "The Númenorean Kings"; Chapter (iv): "Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion"]:
Quote:

... At last he[Eldacar] was besieged in Osgiliath, and held it long, until hunger and the greater forces of the rebels drove him out, leaving the city in flames. In that siege and burning the Tower of the Stone of Osgiliath was destroyed, and the palantír was lost in the waters.
I allway assumed the tower collapsed and the stone fell into the river with the rubble from the tower. That makes immidiate rolling more difficult.

Respectfully
Findegil

Ivriniel 02-27-2014 06:30 AM

Hi Findegil -- love the materials.

We can only hope that one of those ole fountains of steam and pile of rocks got the stone. Assuming not all the Tower melted. I'm gunna have a good look at Realmslore to see if I can find anything else out about what (remained) of the Barad Dur.

Cheers
Iv

Alfirin 02-27-2014 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivriniel (Post 689483)
*grins*



Good, lateral thinking. I'm not sure what tool of Will would be needed to negotiate with such a thing and it was a 'watchman' wasn't it. Rather careful about the Durin Doors remaining closed, and rather bent on keeping them closed. It pulled the trees growing to either side of the door down, to ensure the doors were closed. Implies sentience. Further, not of evil origin. Why would an evil watcher want good things *not* to go into Moria where there was a Balrog.

It seems to me, the watcher, being all 'wet' in water really didn't like beings of Shadow and Fire, and had an, erm, anti-Balrog disposition :).

Cheers
Ivriniel

The best answer I can gives as to "why" is that, since we really aren't told all that much about the watcher's orgins, we really do not know much about his motivations. If, as you suggest the reason he came out was simply to prevent "good" people from going into Moria, why he try and grab Frodo in the first place? He could have simply used his tentacle to slam the door shut before they got in. Unless you want to think the watcher is SO perceptive he senses the ring on frodo, and is afraid that, should the party get in, the Balrog might get it and put it on.
My guess is that the watcher, in as much as it want's anything, doesn't want ANYONE going in or out of the doors, good or evil, for simple fear. He may or may not sense the Balrog in there, but, assuming he has been there long enough to have seen Moria when the Dwarves and the Orcs were battling for it and been worried about what might happen should the door get open permanantly and there be hordes of Orcs moving in and out of it. Orcs being as orcs are, I imagine they aren't particulary good about keeping bodies of water near them clean (well, clean by the standards of a water dweller, let's just say "unbefouled" and if they knew the watcher was there, they might look at him as basically several tons of
ika/takosashimi. The watcher is an ambush predator, we don't know how well he would fair against a batallion of hungry Orcs with sharp axes who already knew he was there.
That also would be why he would take care of the trees, even if it was counterintuative (if the trees cover the door, it would be a lot harder to find, and the trees might make it so the door couldn't be opened, even if you did know the password.) There is a risk of the tree roots breaking the stone and wrenching the doors open.
But if you are right, and the Watcher is actually a Watchman for the Dwarves, something put by Durin in the lake to keep and eye on them, then the convincing job becomes even easier. There no NEED for the doors to be watched anymore, at least soon after the end of the ring. The Balrog is gone, the Orcs dead or driven out. Moria is back in the hands of the Dwarves, the rightful rulers. There are presumably Dwarven guards on Durin's doors so they can be used by other dwarves. In short either the Watcher's job is done (if he is an independent) or if he is some how employed/enthralled/enobligated to the ruler of Moria, then the Ruler of Moria could ask or tell him to leave his post to do this job, then return. If you are right and the Osgiliath stone is still in the Anduin, the job for him would be pretty easy; he'd be done and back in a year or two (in open water, Octopi and squids are pretty fast swimmers. Well, squids are, but octopi aren't all that slow either.)


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:03 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.