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Ivriniel 07-04-2015 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen (Post 700341)
Of course we can discuss things. If it helps, my own answer is based on interpreting "Trigonometric function dislocates itself. It's hard!" as "A word which is the anagram of a trigonometric function and which means (something) hard". Thus sine = Isen = iron. Whether I'm correct or not in this case, that is a typical way for cryptic clues to work.

Ah, thank you.

Ah, so, are, to interpret 'disjoin' Periodic. You can't 'just decide' that 'disclocates' splits up a term (Periodic) at a point of choice to reform a new word?

Nerwen 07-04-2015 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivriniel (Post 700346)
Ah, thank you.

Ah, so, are, to interpret 'disjoin' Periodic. You can't 'just decide' that 'disclocates' splits up a term (Periodic) at a point of choice to reform a new word?

You certainly could- "dislocate" can be a code for "split". But in this case it wouldn't be a fair clue, in my opinion- too arbitrary, with no real hint of what you're supposed to *do*. To get from "periodic" to "Meriadoc" the clue would need to be something like, "After initial change, trigonometric function dislocates itself, revealing magnificent one".

Pervinca Took 07-04-2015 01:35 PM

All correct! Well done, everyone.
 
EORL: Troubled knowledge will lead you to him.
ISEN: Trignometric function dislocates itself. It’s hard!
ETTENDALES: Alien annexes half a score of valleys here.
MILO BURROWS: Unprolific writer shows rabbitlike tendencies?
GOLDILOCKS: Shire gal who had dealings with Teddy, Archie and Bruno?
SARUMAN: Unarms a confused villain.
DIS: Take apart, remove coat, reveal her.

Now, the password is in a particular shape. Not a shape that to my knowledge has been used before in this thread, but not altogether alien to half an inset one being done twice. :D

Let's see who gets it first! :)

Ivriniel, (mistress of riddles), it's great to have another player on board. When I've posted this, I'll explain a bit more about cryptic clues.

Mith, sorry to hear about the books. :(

Pervinca Took 07-04-2015 01:53 PM

Cryptic Clues
 
Cryptic sort of means 'hidden.' Cryptic clues often work by giving you the letters that make up the answer in little bits, and/or scrambling parts of them.

Here's an easy example:

SARUMAN: Unarms a confused villain.

'Confused' is often an anagram indicator, as is 'troubled.' The idea being that confusing or disturbing or dislocating something mixes it up.

If you 'confuse' (make an anagram of) UNARMS A, you can get SARUMAN, who is a villain (the 'straight' part of the clue, which indicates the 'actual' answer). The 'straight' part of the clue is usually at the beginning or the end. The fun/difficult part is working out which is the 'straight' part of the clue, and which is the 'cryptic' part.

This one could be seen as slightly harder:

EORL: Troubled knowledge will lead you to him.

because the word you have to trouble/scramble happens to be another word that means knowledge (LORE - a slightly archaic word often used for knowledge/book-learning in Tolkien's books) rather than 'knowledge' itself. If you trouble/scramble LORE, this will lead you to the answer (EORL). 'Him' is the straight part of the clue. It tells you that the answer is a male character.

Also look at Mithalwen's last password, posted just before mine. That was made up of cryptic clues, and contained the standard form of password, where the answer reads down the initial letters. Doing a non-standard one (such as a diagonal password) is what we call 'varying rule 5,' I think (the idea was that once this thread got going, (years ago now!), it would be within the rules to experiment with different arrangements of passwords.

You can also start with a longer word and give instructions to remove bits. For example

DIS: Take apart, remove coat, reveal her.

As Mithalwen rightly pointed out, start with the word DISMANTLE (which means take apart), take away a word meaning coat (MANTLE), and you will reveal HER (straight part of the clue - a female character, in this case the only named female dwarf in Tolkien's books: DIS, the sister of Thorin and mother of Fili and Kili).

Most answers will be names of people or places, but there are other specifically Tolkien things that may be answers too: names of months in the Shire or in elvish, names of flowers, trees or plants, or rivers or seas, words for things in one of Tolkien's invented languages (such as ISEN for iron), and so forth.

...

Also, look out for the word 'direction' in a clue. It could be indicating that you should add the initial letter of one of the directions: these could be N(orth), (W)est, E(ast), S(outh) or sometimes L(eft) or R(ight). You could also have NE, NW, SE, SW for directions. (north-east, north-west, etc).

If it says 'gain direction,' you would add one of the above. For 'lose direction,' you would remove one of those letters from the collection of letters you have in the clue so far (just as Mithalwen removed 'mantle' from 'dismantle' to get DIS).

And one more thing: 'lose a note' or 'gain a note' will usually mean a musical note - and indicate that you should either add or remove A. B, C, D, E, F or G (one of the seven musical notes).

There are others. In crossword clues 'engineer' can indicate add RE for Royal Engineer - and there are others that I don't know or have forgotten, too.

Galadriel55 07-04-2015 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 700354)
And one more thing: 'lose a note' or 'gain a note' will usually mean a musical note - and indicate that you should either add or remove A. B, C, D, E, F or G (one of the seven musical notes).

There are others. In crossword clues 'engineer' can indicate add RE for Royal Engineer - and there are others that I don't know or have forgotten, too.

I recall ER for Elizabeth Regina being popular a while back. And abbreviations for states are also not unheard of. Also, the notes have the do-re-mi system as well, which might pop up.

SPM made a pretty good post about cryptic clues rules in the Cryptic thread here: http://www.forum.barrowdowns.com/sho...30&postcount=7 . I suggest to take a look at it as it explains how the clues work and how to solve them (and make them).


On a different note, I do my best to follow along, but usually can't sit down for long enough to actually solve anything. Well done to all the guessers!

Pervinca Took 07-04-2015 03:31 PM

That was the post I wanted! Thanks, Galadriel.

Oh ... Milo Burrows ... I think Bilbo's gift to him was a gold pen and ink bottle. (For Mithalwen).

Any idea on the password, Galadriel? ;) (See my hint upthread).

Mithalwen 07-04-2015 03:42 PM

The books are not lost. They are in a special box in ultra secure storage waiting to go back into the special bookcase,, all I need to do is buy a house which I am working on. I do have the Sil I think more or less by accident.. and bizarrely the Hammond and Scull companion....

There are also the little puns of which I am very fond... (learnt literally at my crossword fanatic mother's knee) which means a flower may indicate a river where as a bloomer IS a flower, a spanner a bridge and a butter a goat (something that flows, blooms, spans or butts)

Pervinca Took 07-04-2015 03:51 PM

Oh yes! I'd forgotten about spanner (which I learned from you). I hadn't heard of the butter one.

I suppose a bloomer could be a loaf of bread, too. ;)

Ivriniel 07-04-2015 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 700354)
Cryptic sort of means 'hidden.' Cryptic clues often work by giving you the letters that make up the answer in little bits, and/or scrambling parts of them.

Here's an easy example:

SARUMAN: Unarms a confused villain.

'Confused' is often an anagram indicator, as is 'troubled.' The idea being that confusing or disturbing or dislocating something mixes it up.

If you 'confuse' (make an anagram of) UNARMS A, you can get SARUMAN, who is a villain (the 'straight' part of the clue, which indicates the 'actual' answer). The 'straight' part of the clue is usually at the beginning or the end. The fun/difficult part is working out which is the 'straight' part of the clue, and which is the 'cryptic' part.

This one could be seen as slightly harder:

EORL: Troubled knowledge will lead you to him.

because the word you have to trouble/scramble happens to be another word that means knowledge (LORE - a slightly archaic word often used for knowledge/book-learning in Tolkien's books) rather than 'knowledge' itself. If you trouble/scramble LORE, this will lead you to the answer (EORL). 'Him' is the straight part of the clue. It tells you that the answer is a male character.

Also look at Mithalwen's last password, posted just before mine. That was made up of cryptic clues, and contained the standard form of password, where the answer reads down the initial letters. Doing a non-standard one (such as a diagonal password) is what we call 'varying rule 5,' I think (the idea was that once this thread got going, (years ago now!), it would be within the rules to experiment with different arrangements of passwords.

You can also start with a longer word and give instructions to remove bits. For example

DIS: Take apart, remove coat, reveal her.

As Mithalwen rightly pointed out, start with the word DISMANTLE (which means take apart), take away a word meaning coat (MANTLE), and you will reveal HER (straight part of the clue - a female character, in this case the only named female dwarf in Tolkien's books: DIS, the sister of Thorin and mother of Fili and Kili).

Most answers will be names of people or places, but there are other specifically Tolkien things that may be answers too: names of months in the Shire or in elvish, names of flowers, trees or plants, or rivers or seas, words for things in one of Tolkien's invented languages (such as ISEN for iron), and so forth.

...

Also, look out for the word 'direction' in a clue. It could be indicating that you should add the initial letter of one of the directions: these could be N(orth), (W)est, E(ast), S(outh) or sometimes L(eft) or R(ight). You could also have NE, NW, SE, SW for directions. (north-east, north-west, etc).

If it says 'gain direction,' you would add one of the above. For 'lose direction,' you would remove one of those letters from the collection of letters you have in the clue so far (just as Mithalwen removed 'mantle' from 'dismantle' to get DIS).

And one more thing: 'lose a note' or 'gain a note' will usually mean a musical note - and indicate that you should either add or remove A. B, C, D, E, F or G (one of the seven musical notes).

There are others. In crossword clues 'engineer' can indicate add RE for Royal Engineer - and there are others that I don't know or have forgotten, too.

oh my god hahahahaha that's all fun :) and I'm sure it's going to be a while before I get a clue right hahahaha - but I'm all for learning by not knowing. It's fun

thank you for the assistance, I'm still sure it's going to be a while before I start to get quick at it. hahahaha

Ivriniel 07-04-2015 06:59 PM

one more question (I'll keep the other posts suggested handy as well, thank you everyone)

with the "ettendales" one, was there a special or particular word reserved, or used periodically, ('annexes') that signified 'putting parts of things together'.

ET (alien) TEN (half score) DALES (valleys). Is 'annexes' that word?

So - is this a valid clue:

:) e.g. Music are a third of Nine Annexes you and half a vortex

Miruvor (Music are a third of nine - the third note, mi, of do re mi-r + (annexes) 'you' (u) and 'half a vortex' is vor)

Mithalwen 07-05-2015 03:25 AM

There are a few words that give a clue to more than one element like in my set of clues I used absorb, take in, and follow... there are others.

With your clue you are getting there. However there is no indication of what you are looking for which you need to be a fair clue. Ideally the solver should be fairly certain they are right when they hit on the right answer but the setter can play around with synonyms and puns and grammer to lead them astray. Personally, being old and text speak being a mystery (thinking LOL meant lots of love for ages.....that was awkward at times) I would give a "sounds like" indicator for you/ u but younger players might disagree!

So at the moment it looks like Music is the "straight clue" so if I were setting on these lines I might do

Cordial note led you, I hear, to partial vortex (/whirlpool/eddy/other synonym)

or

Sounds like you and half-hearted Eddy, followed music to Elvish Spirit


Not saying that these are great clues but they follow the conventions indicating order etc. The straight clue usually goes at one end. Sometimes the straight clue is incorporated in the cryptic but I can't think of one of the top of my head.

Sorry if you feel like you are back at school but it is enthusiasm not criticism. Partly it is code and convention and having a warped and twisty mind. :D

Ivriniel 07-05-2015 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen (Post 700369)
Sorry if you feel like you are back at school but it is enthusiasm not criticism. Partly it is code and convention and having a warped and twisty mind. :D

It's no problem, I appreciate it. I'm fine with the learning, thanx for the tips.

Ivriniel 07-05-2015 03:32 AM

Quote:

Sounds like you and half-hearted Eddy, followed music to Elvish Spirit
This one, :) oh my god - wait -

'sounds like u' Mi - (where's the 'r') -u- 'half-hearted eddy' (oh my god - that's a double leap 'vortex' 'half-hearted' 'vor'. And spirit, of course, makes sense.

I would have thought

A sound to annexe you and a half-hearted eddy, the music of Elvish Spirit.

Ivriniel 07-05-2015 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen (Post 700369)
.....thinking LOL meant lots of love for ages.....that was awkward at times)...

hahahahaha

Dear Mum and sis,

Thanx for helping me set up the house for guests over Easter.

LOL

hahaha I can imagine!

Mithalwen 07-05-2015 05:10 AM

Oh bother... I missed that ..I am forever finding I have missed or double counted letters just when I think the clue is true... hmm might have to shove a direction in to shove a direction in.. actually I think I set Miruvor a little while ago I will try to find what I actually did...

Yeah as someone said "I'm sorry is the same as I apologise - unless you are at a funeral"......Think along the lines of "I'm sorry your dog died, LOL,"

Ivriniel 07-05-2015 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen (Post 700374)
...Yeah as someone said "I'm sorry is the same as I apologise - unless you are at a funeral"......Think along the lines of "I'm sorry your dog died, LOL,"

hahahaha er mah gerd hahaha

Pervinca Took 07-05-2015 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivriniel (Post 700371)
This one, :) oh my god - wait -

'sounds like u' Mi - (where's the 'r') -u- 'half-hearted eddy' (oh my god - that's a double leap 'vortex' 'half-hearted' 'vor'. And spirit, of course, makes sense.

I would have thought

A sound to annexe you and a half-hearted eddy, the music of Elvish Spirit.

I love Elvish Spirit as a straight clue for Miruvor! That's perhaps an example of the straight clue being slightly cryptic - as it could be spirit as in fea or someone's spirit/personality, but it actually means alcoholic spirit. Like spanner or butter or flower.

Mount is another one we've had fun with in the past as a 'straight part of the clue.' It can sometimes mean a mountain (like Mount Doom), but we've also used it to mean a horse (someone's 'mount' is their horse (they mount it to ride it)).

About annexes - often I'd have said 'joins' or 'fuses with,' but the other fun thing about writing cryptic clues is trying to make the clue sentence make some kind of crazy sense - so if an alien (in this case ET of the Steven Spielberg film) is annexing ten valleys, it sounds like he's invading them and trying to colonise some land). ;) 'Annexed' has sometimes been used in Real World history, I think, when one country has colonised a neighbouring one.

Swallows was a new one that Galadriel55 taught me - when one word or set of letters swallows or completely surrounds another. (Swallows, runs back, returns, joins etc are usually words telling you what to do with the letters, not part of the letters themselves, but they might not always be).

And occasionally we have clues Tolkien-themed but not of Middle-earth. Galadriel did a fantastic one (a few pages back, I think, but not too many), in which each answer was one of J R R Tolkien's family. I once wrote a clue where the straight part was 'hamlet' (small village), but the answer wasn't a Shire or Bree or otherwise Middle-earth village, but Sarehole, where Tolkien and his brother spent a substantial part of their early childhood (which is documented in Humphrey Carpenter's biography and well-known in Tolkien-lore). I have also used both The Eagle And Child and its nickname The Bird And Baby as passwords.

Mithalwen 07-05-2015 12:00 PM

What I actually did was "Elvish jewel precedes unseen rays or spirit?"

Ivriniel 07-05-2015 05:19 PM

Hi there Pervinca - thanx muchly :) yes, annexes usually does imply territory of land, and such.

Elvish Jewel precedes unseen rays or spirit.

Ah, okay, :) what about this

Break a Mirror-the hoover did it vacuuming, a mind far away with Elvish Spirit hahaha (can you used 'hyphens' to designate a join. And it references the head going light on Miruvor whilst 'vacuuming'

Has anyone guessed the shape in Pervinca's Password - my maths head was engaged (that maths's clue did it) :) and I started looking for a word in a NORMAL DISTRIBUTION

Mithalwen 07-05-2015 05:48 PM

Nope, I have no mathematical head (but I can do sums!) clueless

Ivriniel 07-05-2015 06:22 PM

Quote:



EORL: Troubled knowledge will lead you to him.
ISEN: Trignometric function dislocates itself. It’s hard!
ETTENDALES: Alien annexes half a score of valleys here.
MILO BURROWS: Unprolific writer shows rabbitlike tendencies?
GOLDILOCKS: Shire gal who had dealings with Teddy, Archie and Bruno?
SARUMAN: Unarms a confused villain.
DIS: Take apart, remove coat, reveal her.

Now, the password is in a particular shape. Not a shape that to my knowledge has been used before in this thread, but not altogether alien to half an inset one being done twice. :D

....

Pervinca Took 07-06-2015 06:49 AM

I'm not a motorist, but the password is in a shape that is often seen on the surfaces of roads - mostly motorways - and also one that Legolas would probably be well-acquainted with.

"Elvish jewel precedes unseen rays or spirit?"

One of those clues that also has a Tolkien element as one of the parts that make up the main answer (the main answer being another Tolkieneque thing), MIR meaning jewel in elvish.

Ahhhh - was being a plank and about to ask about unseen rays, but it's UV for ultra-violet, isn't it? And then 'or.'

Ivriniel, there is also the 'Cryptic Clues' thread, which is the same as this one except that it's just one clue at a time, with no password to find. One clue at a time might sound easier - solve it and then it's your go - but it isn't always, because if you simply can't solve the clue, you can't get the initial letter to solve it, whereas with the Password, you've more chance of guessing at least one of the clues (and the password usually just reads down the first letters of each clue).

Check it out, because Mithalwen has just guessed my last clue, so will probably be posting a new one quite soon.

Galadriel55 07-06-2015 07:14 PM

Ha! Turns out I knew the password even before your clue, I just forgot that such a word existed in Tolkienesque. :D I finally looked it up and turns out it's a thing! But as I have not guessed a single clue, I'll let those who have done the hard work get the prize.

Ivriniel 07-07-2015 02:42 AM

Not touching it. I'm going to press onwards enjoying being ignorant, and will be sure to cheer when I guess a clue.....

Mithalwen 07-07-2015 04:24 AM

I am a motorist but avoid motorways and nearly failed for the third time on the highway code (this was before the separate theory test and mercifully also before you had to reverse park to pass). So baffled. Galadriel, you may as well go for it else we are going to be here a very long time...

Galadriel55 07-07-2015 03:50 PM

Ok, if you say so. But you can take the turn still.

The password is ESTOLAD - in the shape of an arrow (two diagonals). Until this password, I evidently happily ignored this part of the map. :p I kept trying to scramble the letters to get something familiar, but of course without luck.

Who wants to take it?

Mithalwen 07-07-2015 04:05 PM

Oh I tried that but when Est wasn't followed elyn I gave up.

I don't have time to do one again so quickly, I really need to get my RPG post up and so feel free to jump in. Otherwise it might be several days.

Pervinca Took 07-07-2015 05:18 PM

EORL: Troubled knowledge will lead you to him.
ISEN: Trignometric function dislocates itself. It’s hard!
ETTENDALES: Alien annexes half a score of valleys here.
MILO BURROWS: Unprolific writer shows rabbitlike tendencies?
GOLDILOCKS: Shire gal who had dealings with Teddy, Archie and Bruno?
SARUMAN: Unarms a confused villain.
DIS: Take apart, remove coat, reveal her.

A chevron-shaped Estolad it is. :)

Well done everyone, and over to Galadriel.

Galadriel55 07-08-2015 06:42 PM

Wait, what? No one wants to step up?

Mith, it's gonna take me a while as well, so if you can get yours done before I can go ahead with it. :)

Galadriel55 07-10-2015 10:20 AM

Ok, I got something ready... Mith, are you sure you don't want to go? If you have one, I can just save this for later.


1. He wrecks destruction and drink, did you say?

2. Dwarf confused foreign colour.

3. One European mixed up men.

4. Girl and boy make a cross-breed.

5. King label

6. Tree (or is it?) endlessly shot.

7. Animal, master, and statement.

8. Behold! Feverish, confused man.

9. Leader mixes small direction.

Mithalwen 07-10-2015 02:24 PM

Very sure

is 4 Elladan Ella & Dan and one of the halfelven even though more like 3/4 elven

Pervinca Took 07-10-2015 04:15 PM

Very unconfident one: 5. Tar because kings are Tar- and Kings are a kind of cigarette (or used to be) and Tar sometimes gets put on cigarette packets too (I'm thinking of the days when they were advertised in magazines - low tar etc).

I did say it was unconfident. ;)

Mithalwen 07-10-2015 06:00 PM

Taking a punt at Bill for 7 - Pony, his ex master Bill Ferny and a bill can be a statement of account amongst other things...

Galadriel55 07-10-2015 08:27 PM

1. He wrecks destruction and drink, did you say?

2. Dwarf confused foreign colour.

3. One European mixed up men.


4. ELLADAN Girl and boy make a cross-breed.

5. King label

6. Tree (or is it?) endlessly shot.


7. BILL Animal, master, and statement.

8. Behold! Feverish, confused man.

9. Leader mixes small direction.



Sorry Pervinca, not Tar. But you're certainly on the right track.

Pervinca Took 07-11-2015 12:53 PM

3. EDAIN for men? Dane plus I.

Pervinca Took 07-11-2015 01:01 PM

1. He wrecks destruction and drink, did you say?

TURIN? Ruin 'wrecked' plus T which sounds like a drink?

Only just noticed where the 'did you say' would come in.

Pervinca Took 07-11-2015 02:49 PM

8. Behold! Feverish, confused man.

The nearest I can get at present is LO! for Behold plus HOT for Feverish, confused to LOTHO.

Unfortunately, though, Lotho is a hobbit, not a man. :)

Galadriel55 07-11-2015 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took (Post 700617)
Unfortunately, though, Lotho is a hobbit, not a man. :)

Well, he's not a woman! :smokin: But not a Man either, though that's something different.

Anyways, well done so far! Spot on with your guesses and perfect reasoning!


1. TURIN He wrecks destruction and drink, did you say?

2. Dwarf confused foreign colour.

3. EDAIN One European mixed up men.

4. ELLADAN Girl and boy make a cross-breed.

5. King label

6. Tree (or is it?) endlessly shot.


7. BILL Animal, master, and statement.

8. LOTHO Behold! Feverish, confused man.

9. Leader mixes small direction.

Nerwen 07-11-2015 10:57 PM

Is #2 "Nori"? (The "foreign colour" being "noir").

Pervinca Took 07-12-2015 06:21 AM

And I thought I'd been through all the French and German colours, and the elvish ones! (Bows to Nerwen, assuming it's correct).

Could the King label simply be Elessar?

(Or maybe it's the label of authenticity on the Tincture of Athelas bottle). ;) Approved by the King.


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