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GANDALF@ 01-13-2002 10:27 PM

how do the wise become wise
here is a question to occupie your little mind, how do the wise become wise??? are they born with the intllegence of elders or do they take years of studies to learn all, if so where do they study. where is this vast palace of endless knowledge???

zifnab 01-14-2002 10:52 AM

Well, I always thought that their was a difference in "wisdom", and "intelligence". I think wisdom does not come from a book but from real-life.

Gayahithwen 01-14-2002 12:51 PM

I totally agree with zifnab.. You can't be born "wise" you have to learn through time..

Elendil 01-14-2002 05:18 PM

I agree Zifnab, I know some people who can't learn in school but who are wise.

GANDALF@ 01-14-2002 06:22 PM

I agree, but to learn all the knowledge through a course of a life is almost impossible, you must live numerus life times to learn the such great masses of knowledge. How can you do this with such little time. Unless you a immortal I do'nt see how it is possible.

Elendil 01-14-2002 06:28 PM

Not by being immortal, but by reincarnation.

Pippin 01-15-2002 06:26 AM

do you ask a fish hw it swims?
or a bird how it flies?

nope, natural talent, improved with age and experience

Fenrir 01-15-2002 12:02 PM

Even immortality and high natural intelligence doesn't make some people wise. Look at the Lord of the Nazgul. Brilliant strategist, just didn't have the sense to drop his mace and run when he met Eowyn.

Hama 01-15-2002 12:48 PM

Well, The Wise, in the context of LOTR are all immortal. So they've had plenty of tuime to accumulate the knowledge and skills to make themselves wise: being superbeings, eg Wizards and Elves also helps, them being probably rather cleverer than the average Human. Not having to worry about imminent death through old age also perhaps helps: can take the long view and study things in more depth.

I think that in general, wisdom/cleverness/intelligence all revolve around being able to make connections in your mind between the different things you have learnt or seen

Eowyn of Ithilien 01-16-2002 02:29 AM

"I'd like my children to consider me as wise, my friends to see me as intelligent and my enemies to think I'm clever"
*shamelessly transcribed what a friend once said*

zifnab 01-16-2002 11:27 AM

I like that Eowyn of Ithilien!

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Elrian 01-16-2002 05:04 PM

They had books and scrolls full of lore, both Men and Elves. The Red Book of Westmarch that was written by Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could be called Hobbit lore.

Fissh, nice fissh 01-16-2002 07:09 PM

Wisdom is gained only through experience and reflection upon that experience. The ability to see the big picture as well as patience are what make a person wise. I guess the elves and wizards are wise because they have had time to see many things and how they change over time. They understand why things are the way they are because they saw how they started way back when. They've seen how things happened in the past so they can more easily see where things are leading in the present.

GANDALF@ 01-16-2002 09:54 PM

Ok I see, I just was wondering how all that all happened. well I thank you all for your own additions to this colum this has really helped me on my question. I was totaly lost on this subject...
Thank you once again..
Gandalf [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Dáin Ironfoot 01-17-2002 03:59 PM

Yes, i believe that it takes years to become wise, but sometimes in the books, younger falks are wiser than the older. Look at Hurin at the Battle of unnumbered tears. The elves wanted to attack, but he cautioned them to wait, but they did not, and look what happened. Also, Faramir seems to me to be more wise than Denethor.......less lore, more wisdom. THe whole wisdom thing depends.

Ploi 01-20-2002 04:04 PM

Well someone once said to me that the truely wise people know that they aren't the wisest. So i guess we all are pretty darn wise in a sense. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Legolas 01-22-2002 05:55 PM

I think wisdom isn't necessarily from experience only. Wisdom is when you observe and can make connections without someone laying it out for you, whether you're directly involved or not.

sk8er74t 01-22-2002 06:25 PM

I think that you people left out one VERY important point. Some Elves had been alive for over 3000 years, ie. Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, etc... Do you not think that they had seen battle? They had only fought orks for thousands of years, and if they survived, they must have been able to predict what the orks were going to do... Wise could just be something that you had experienced in the past... Thought that I should bring that up.

River Jordan 01-30-2002 12:21 AM

Just thought I'd add a quick comment to this discussion, as I'm skipping merrily through the Barrow-Downs! In my mind, I see wisdom and intelligence as being two different things. To me, intelligence is the "smarts" that you are born with, which refers to the ability to thinking logically, mathematically, etc. Wisdom, on the other hand, refers more to that which is gained by experience, and ones ability to relate and respond to the world around him or her. You can be really intelligent, and "on paper" know how to do math equations, etc, but not be really wise when it comes to the affairs of life. Likewise, one may not have "school-smarts", but may be a very wise person. So in a sense, there is a greater opportunity for older people having more wisdom, having had more experiences, and yet, there are many young people who have much wisdom as well. How does one become wise? A final thought from the Old Testament Scriptures of the Bible - "He who walks with the wise will become wise." If you hang around wise people, you will grow in wisdom as well!

Your friendly neighbourhood elf, *River*

"You have proved mightiest, and all your labours have gone well" Treebeard to Gandalf

Carannillion 01-30-2002 11:20 AM

Well then I guess this is a nice place to hang around, don't you? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And also, the question 'What is intelligence?' has been a matter of debate the recent years. Mensa, the international 'club for the intelligent' has had to make new guidelines and new tests for determining whether or not a person is to be considered to be intelligent. IQ does no longer apply.

Hama 01-30-2002 11:27 AM

IQ tests are pretty much tests of how well you can do IQ tests... I guess that is the problem with any test-based measure of intelligence: technique comes into it.

Maybe the only way we can define who is intelligent/wise etc is to observe them in action over a period of time, building up a picture

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