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Old 03-19-2003, 10:59 AM   #27
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin
Posts: 239
Man-of-the-Wold has just left Hobbiton.

Well, first I'm still waiting for citation about "five" at Dol Guldor. I've not gotten through all of HoME or Letters, yet, so that might be a solid clue.

As far as direct presence goes, I was only suggesting that 'some' White Council members might have participated from afar. Projecting support lets say.

It's clear, though, that Gandalf went, and one reason he was in a hurry was to make sure that Saruman was not in complete control, as suggested in UTs/Quest for Erebor. So, Saruman the White was there.

Proximity and the ability to have conventional forces at the ready would make one assume direct involvement by Galadriel and Celeborn.

The proximity of Rhosgobel and the emphasis on wizards in the closing pages of The Hobbit would further suggest that Radagast the Brown came too, but others here raise familiar and legitimate arguments for questioning whether Radagast was ever even a (serious) member of the White Council.

I mention Glorfindel for it seems quite conceivable that he would travel to such a confrontation, and be a very potent player, but who knows? Also, he could have participated, yet never been a White Councillor per se.

Indisputably, Elrond was on The White Council, yet there are reasons to believe that he didn't go in person to the Dol Guldor attack. This may be something that is incorrectly implied in The Hobbit, but I can't think of anything anywhere else that says that he was there or would even needed to have been there. Vilya may have been quite suitable for more distant projections of influence, and that otherwise he had little else to offer by being on the scene. That was not the nature of his power, perhaps.

Remember, something can be done "by" the White Council, without the Council itself or all of its members actually taking part. The attack was carried out under the auspices and with the power of the Council. The direct agents might be more or less limited to the Istari, plus Lothlorien.

Indeed, the Istari were not supposed to match power with power. Dol Guldor may have been a special case, in that they only intended to send Sauron running.

As for Cirdan, even if not directly stated, it is inconceiable that he were not a member of the White Council, whether he made all meetings himself is doubtful, especially as Galdor represented him so effectively at the Council of Elrond. Also, he was in all likelihood not physically present at the Dol Guldor attack.
The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.
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