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Old 03-19-2019, 01:02 PM   #6
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Posted by Huinesoron:
I wound up with the Orocarni wandering anywhere from the Misty Mountains to the Sea of Rhun, so my results approximately agree with yours.
Yes, even with the 2nd Silmarillion Map included it is very tricky to get the relative scaling right between the Maps.

Posted by Huinesoron:
Comparing Ambarkanta IV and V to the later maps, it's pretty clear that Tolkien straight-up added the Misty Mountains to his worldview at some point. It would make sense for this to be when he decided The Hobbit was part of the Legendarium; he would then have added in the references to the Silm, and gotten the whole map pretty much how we know it.
Not so sure what you mean here. At least Karen Wayn Fonstad interpreted the ‘adding’ of the Misty Mountians and all the stage of the LotR as a kind of pushing to the east away the elements on Ambrakanta Map V. But as a matter fact do not have to agree with her.

And yes, Middle-earth (which by the way is the main continent of Arda) becomes pretty much small when taking Ambrakanta Map IV and Map V serious.
Posted by Huinesoron:
Intriguingly, this would make the Sea of Nurn the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar - and put Cuivienen somewhere in southern Mordor.
Yes, the Sea of Nurn would be the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar. But no, Cuivienen would not be in eastern Mordor. Actually the Inland Sea of Helkar would cover much more space: The Inland Sea covers on my combined Map parts of the Bay of Belfalas with Tolfalas, Lebenin and the eastern quarter of the Ered Nimrais. Its norther coast runs through the Nindalf and over Dargorlad and covers fully the Ered Lithui. So it has 100 miles distance to the southern coast of the Sea of Rhûn. In the south the Inland Sea covers Mordor and the Ephel Duath fully and reachs in the east to a point less than 200 miles from the edge of eastern extension of the LotR-Map.
On Map IV Cuivienen was at the in Map V narrow strip of land between the Inland Sea and the Red Mountians, so it has to be east of the later place of Mordor. But on the LotR Map all hints of the souther part of the Red Mountains are gone. We have to assume that they were removed.
Some farther intriguing thoughs. If we would accept that this Eastern Range is identical to the Orocarni this would have some interesting effects:
- During the Second Age the Eastern Sea would not be fare behind the Orocarni (this could be changed drastically with Arda made round at the end of the Second Age). But the Dominion over the East that Sauron held in the Second Age looks a bit smaller in this context then I would have expected.
- Considering the places where the fathers of the dwarves awoke, the Orocarni are for sure the most eastern place (Blacklocks and Stonefoots). But that means, that we have the place were the Ironfists and the Stiffbeards awoke inbetween Gundabad and the Orocarni. Looking to the First Lord of the Rings Map, the only place that seems fiting are the Iron Moutians. And indeed we can find a vaint supporting evidence for this: LotR, Appendix A III: Dúrin’s Folk:
When the dreadful fires were in ashes the allies went away to their own countries, and Dáin Ironfoot led his father's people back to the Iron Hills. Then standing by the great stake, Thráin said to Thorin Oakenshield: 'Some would think this head dearly bought! At least we have given our kingdom for it. Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?' 'To the anvil,' answered Thorin. 'The hammer will at least keep the arms strong, until they can wield sharper tools again.'
Why didn’t they go with Dáin to the Iron Hills? Probabaly because Iron Mountains were the teritory of other Houses and so Náin and Dáin were accepted guests the Kings of Dúrins House would not go their asking for hospitality. In the end they did so in the Ered Lindon, but the connection to the western Houses (Firebeards and Broadbeams) had always been strong since we hear in LotR, Appendix A III: Dúrin’s Folk:
… It was after the end of the First Age that the great power and wealth of Moria began, for it was enriched by many folk and much lore and craft, when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost were ruined in the change of the western world and the breaking of Morgoth. …
So dwarves from Ered Lindon had for a long time being guest of the House of Dúrin probably including their Kings, which might it have made easier for Thráin to accept the hospitality of these western Houses.
And considering that Tolkien always used speaking names, doesn’t it fit to have the Ironfists in the Iron Hills and the Stiffbeards to be balmed by Thráin to dwell behind ‘proud doors’?
- And then we have this Note from HoME 12, Of Dwarves and Men:
… They were brave and loyal folk, truehearted, haters of Morgoth and his servants; and at first had regarded the Dwarves askance, fearing that they were under the Shadow (as they said).[Footnote to the text: For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. [This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: 'Alas, it seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.']]
Thus there is a chance of Dwarvish house in alliance with the Enemy as fare west as the Iron Hills!

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