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Old 05-13-2020, 08:38 AM   #17
Huinesoron
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis of Numenor View Post
Hello,

Thanks a lot for this very hight quality map and analysis

Here's my two cents :

B : it IS Neldoreth ; cf HOME 7.15 :
"The forest bordering the Sea of Rhunaer (L 19) extends on the First Map round the north-eastern point of the Sea and down its eastern shore (L-M 20), and against it my father pencilled Neldoreth"
Oh, well spotted! So although Tolkien was probably just following his usual practice of stealing older names for the new map, this does mean we can assume there are beech-trees around the Sea of Rhun ('Neldoreth' meaning 'beech-wood').

And it rather strengthens the idea that Dorwinion, on the coast of the same sea, was an Elvish kingdom - another of the 'Sindar come in and take over' kingdoms. Looking at the map, Lorien, Amon Lanc (original heart of the Woodland Realm) and Dorwinion on Rhun all lie roughly on a line, so we can imagine Silvan petty-kingdoms stretched out through this whole region. In fact... I wonder if this might be the line of the original Great March, with the various kingdoms being founded wherever people happened to drop out. The shores of Rhunaer seem like a reasonable place to stop, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis of Numenor View Post
C : I think it's a resumption of the Hithaeglir's shape around Moria because :
- the drawing is at the same "latitude",
- all this part of the map seems to be an annotated corner for the North-Western map ("A" talk about Shire, "D" just close may be about Misty Mt, the slight line of "E" may separate this space from the North-Western map, "F" is about Isengard, "H" may talk about Nindalf, "I" is about Anduin)
- the shape fits
Agreed. This also explains the four heavier marks on the sketch - three of them mark the Mountains of Moria, while I think the fourth might be Moria itself.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erendis of Numenor View Post
G : It seems to me that's rather the sketch of the vale south of the gap of Isen (the sketch is also at the same latitude), opposite Isengard
Once again you are exactly right: there's a note to the right of the sketch that (when you know what it says) clearly reads "Helm's Deep". Well spotted! And congratulations on your excellent first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithadan View Post
Interesting. On the large map linked by Huinesoron on October 1, 2019, there is a fairly clear label north of Rivendell that seems to read "Entish Lands."
Ooh. It does, and it's struck out, with an arrow pointing up into the north. The label at the end of the arrow says:

"Ettinmoor
Alter Entishlands to .. [?]
[crossed through] Trollfells
[Crossed through] [????]land"

The rejected [something]land looks like it says "Bupiland", but that's obviously wrong. It could maybe be some variant on bogle, but I really can't see a G in there.

Ah, it looks like Christopher had this one. According to HoME 7:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treason of Isengard
Entish Land Q 11) is original, but is absent from the 1943 map; a later note against this on the First Map says: 'Alter Entish Lands to [Trollfells > Bergrisland >] Ettenmoor'. This would seem to be the place where Ettenmoor(s) was first devised, but see p. 65 note 32. Bergrisland is from Old Norse berg-risi 'hill-giant'
hS
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