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Old 05-19-2020, 02:39 AM   #21
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Originally Posted by mhagain View Post
Yes, there's text in, I think, HoME XII that confirms this, the Sea of Rhn was one of the stopping-off points on the Great March. The Cirdan material in XII is the place to look, IIRC.
HME XII 391. However, these "Late Writings" also mention, in slightly greater detail, the sojourn of the Peoples of Beor and Marach (Hador) on the shores of the Sea of Rhun during their much later migration: and there is not a trace of an Eldarin population at that time.
Thank you both! I've looked up both these references, and what strikes me is that the Beor/Marach text very specifically places one group in the forests to the north-east ("Neldoreth"), and the other in the hills to the south-west.

Dorwinion, meanwhile, per Tolkien's notes on the Baynes map, is in the north-west regions of the Sea, where the Celduin flows into it. Given that (per the Beor/Marach text) it took Men ages to realise that there were other mortals around the Sea, they could certainly have missed an Eldarin presence.

What I'm wondering is whether "Neldoreth" is a survivor of a great eastern forest, and whether the Celduin vale was the first non-forested area the Great March encountered. If some of the Teleri had a strong preference for open skies, the combination of "wide open spaces" and "big sea to boat about on" could have induced them to stay.

This would also explain the settling patterns further west: the Amon Lanc group were spooked by the open spaces, so stopped when they reached a hill that let them confirm there were woods all around them again, while the Lorien group stopped once they hit the mountains and went "nah, we're staying in the woods".

None of these were 'kingdoms' (or even named); they were just scattered populations strung out along the line of the March. We know this for sure, because when the Sindar showed up, they simply put themselves in charge. I actually wonder whether for most of the Second Age, Amdir and Oropher were 'kings' only of their Sindarin followers, with the Nandor pretty much ignoring them.

The name, like the kingdom, would have come later. I would imagine Neldoreth was named first, in memory of Doriath; when the Sindar realised they could grow wine along Celduin, they revived the name of Dorwinion for their new realm.

Oh, and for bonus points:

Blador: Noldorin (early Sindarin), 'World'. Relative of 'Palurien', name of Yavanna.

Thind: Sindarin, 'Grey', as in Thingol.

Bladorthin: 'King of the Clouded Land/Misty Vale/Grey World'.


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