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Old 03-19-2003, 01:10 PM   #5
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,681
lindil has just left Hobbiton.

To define our terms [as per JRRT] so that we know we are on the same page.

Fea: essentially equivalant to spirit, often used in contradistinction to hroa, the body.

osanwe: to communicate from mind to mind

Can something that is mabye inherently an automatic or involuntary process in a maia like Luthien be taught to someone like Galadriel?
First off Luthien was a 'permaia' if I may coin a term. While she may not have been 1/2 maia, in terms that the valar would accept her as such, she certainly was not 'just an elf'. She clearly inherited powers from her mother, which we see no other elf ever exercise.

So I think there are definetly limits to how far an elves skill can take them towards 'Maia-ness', however as Galadriel shows, it can be quite far.

I donot think Galadriel would have been able to enchant Morgoth and cause him to sleep, just an opinion.

In terms of some Elves [Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Rog[?], killing Balrog's assuming these conceptions would have survivrd to be revised by JRRT (they all date from the era of the Hobbit/1930) we are dealing with maia who have deliberately enscnced themselves in a body to have more control over Arda [as did Melian, but for vastly different reasons], they thus open themselves to the vulnerablity to being slain by weapons, only Gandalf after his [Fea's?] return from Valinor was ever said to be immune from weapons, magical or no. Presumably at the Morannon, only Sauron could have vanquished him.

This is due to I think a 'resurrection' particular to Gandalf.

The Valar themselves are apparently beyond such 'slayability', as mandos told Feanor as he departed from Aman, 'none of the Valar cans't though overcome ...not if Eru had made thou thrice greater than thou art'.

Why the valar would not be but Maiar are is not fully clear to me.

Nonethelees, there does seem to be a gulf in being that no increase in the power of an elf can bridge.

Even though they may gain enough skill with weapons, and 'warrior spirit' to vanquish a balrog, note however every showdown with a maia resulted in the death of the Elf.
Gil-Galad, the aforementioned Elves of Gondolin and Finrod.

None survived, though Sauron did on the first occasion.

To add abit more about my understanding of the original question let me say, that my question is phrased from a particular point of view of ascetical traditions by and large common to Vedic tradions, Taoism, Eastern Christianity and Sufism.

I do not claim the above mentioned 'paths', share the same beliefs, even re: the said ascetic traditions, but from my study and practice of them, especially the Taoist and more recently the Eastern Christian, there is most definelty a belief and experience of a growth in 'being' and 'power' if the practices are learned rightly and done regualrly [and no other negating factors enter in such as a 'dysfunctional' diet.

What I mean by 'being' and 'power' is this.

The energy that circulates in the meridians of acupuncture increases in quality and quantity, the stamina increases, without aerobic conditioning, the amount of sleep decreases, the health increases [less sickness, eyesight improves etc] and most characterisitically, one gains a greater measure of control and function of ther mind and emotions, without directly exercising these functions.

So it is not a case of skill, that is practicing a technique or craft over and over till it various increases are attained.

No it is a case of indirect and more fundamental changes occuring, and one can become 'super'natural, in the sense that one's whole mode of life, perception and understanding can surpass even thos who have lived a 'natural' life their entire lives.

I hope this clarifies my question.

I have no doubt that men can do this in this world, my question is is there evidence that this could occur for the Elves, over and above a natural maturation process, and apart from any increase in 'skill' from naturally practiced techniques and arts.

We definetly see just such a transformation from the Edain into the Dunedain though. Everything about them 'increases'. Including eventually their pride.

And we see as 'virtue' declines so does the 'being' of the exiled Numenoreans.

It however as in the case of Aragorn, reverse dirction, somewhat.

there may of course be no definitive answer to this, as JRRT may not have considered it, or if he did, did not leave us sufficent writings to form an opinion.

But as I have not read everything,and I do not always recall everything I have read I am curious as to what others understand or guess re: this.
The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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