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Old 12-29-2013, 03:22 PM   #1
Ancalagon
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Orcs on both sides

I just finished reading the Silmarillion again, and during the final chapter, reading about the Last Alliance, I noticed this interesting point; the book says, 'All living things were divided that day, and some of every kind, even beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only.' This led to me wondering if there were any orcs that maybe rebelled or fought against Sauron, or if anybody had any evidence supporting or disproving this theory? Thanks in advance
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Old 12-29-2013, 03:45 PM   #2
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Welcome, Ancalagon. An interesting find and question.

I would say that the statement you cite does not include Orcs, as they are not a "kind" as Elves, Men and Dwarves, being corruptions that had over time made a sub-race. At any rate, it's difficult to see any Orcs fighting against Sauron, though I can believe many would have avoided the conflict altogether if given the option.
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Old 12-29-2013, 05:41 PM   #3
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Actually that statement brings up a lot of questions, as I would imply that there were divisions even among those races of animals that are usually thought to be on one side or the other solely. In other words, Sauron would have to have had Eagles and Ravens, and the Last Alliance would have had to include some dragons and wolves.

Now that I think of it, if you still follow the "Orcs are corrupted elves" line of thought at the time of this writing, even they were divided; the orcs were the "evil" elves.
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:32 PM   #4
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Actually that statement brings up a lot of questions, as I would imply that there were divisions even among those races of animals that are usually thought to be on one side or the other solely. In other words, Sauron would have to have had Eagles and Ravens, and the Last Alliance would have had to include some dragons and wolves.
Alternately, it could be said that maybe that statement was merely a generalization of the "historian", who wanted to get across how polarizing was that war in Middle-earth.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:06 AM   #5
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Alternately, it could be said that maybe that statement was merely a generalization of the "historian", who wanted to get across how polarizing was that war in Middle-earth.
I think i would have to agree that it was a generalisation in that sense, since 'some of every kind, even beasts and birds' could mean: there were some beasts on each side, and there were some birds on each side, but not necessarily the same type of beast or the same type of bird.
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Ancalagon View Post
I think i would have to agree that it was a generalisation in that sense, since 'some of every kind, even beasts and birds' could mean: there were some beasts on each side, and there were some birds on each side, but not necessarily the same type of beast or the same type of bird.
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I think i would have to agree that it was a generalisation in that sense, since 'some of every kind, even beasts and birds' could mean: there were some beasts on each side, and there were some birds on each side, but not necessarily the same type of beast or the same type of bird.
Obviously - I would agree with Inzil that the Orcs, Trolls and dragons and similar "evil monsters" were most likely undivided; they may not get their separate distinction also because they are not real creations, but only perversions of creation, therefore they are not a "kind of living things" by strict definition (and especially Trolls of course are not supposed to be "living things" in the first place, but sort of automata made of stone with some evil will).

It is really notable to point out that there were probably for example evil Eagles on Morgoth's side, but unusual as it is, it is not unimaginable - first, one can easily imagine some individual animals being corrupted or for example possessed by evil spirits such as in the case of Werewolves; second, the very first portrayal of the Eagles in the Hobbit describes them actually as mostly sinister breed, only it is specifically pointed out that these particular Eagles the Dwarves encounter happened, by the sheerest luck, to be the noble Eagles with proud ancestors (as we learn later, coming back to Thorondor and the Eagles of Gondolin).
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:02 AM   #7
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Now that I think of it, if you still follow the "Orcs are corrupted elves" line of thought at the time of this writing, even they were divided; the orcs were the "evil" elves.
That's an interestimg point, I'd never really thought about it like that considering how separate from eachother, orcs and elves had become by this time.
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