Tal-Elmar

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of the chapter Tal-Elmar in the part The Black Years.

The is no Basic Text in this chapter is of course from Tal-Elmar, nonetheless and I will give source information for each part that is used. They are mostly from The Akallabêth in Sil77 and Aman and Mortal Men from HoME 10, MT, Text XI.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

TE-SL-zz for Tal-Elmar, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

TE-HA-zz for Tal-Elmar, History of the Akallabêth, to document all reconstruction to the original text. I will normally not comment on these.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

BY-HL-15 <Tal-Elmar Tal-Elmar
>TE-SL-01<Akallabêth Then Tar-Ancalimon, son of Atanamir, became King, and he was of like mind as his father had been; and in his day the people of Númenor became divided. … and they were troubled by the thought of death.
Thus the bliss of Westernesse became diminished; … of Meneltarma in the midst of the land.
Thus it came to pass … they clad themselves in silver and gold.
In all this the Elf-friends had small part. … lending them aid against SauronTE-SL-02{; and their haven was Pelargir above the mouths of Anduin the Great}. But the King's Men sailed far away to the south; and TE-HA-01 <History of the Akalabeth though >the lordships and strongholds that they made have left many rumours in the legends of Men{.} <History of the Akalabeth , the Eldar know naught of them. TE-SL-03{Only Pelargir they remember, for there was the haven of the Elf-friends above the mouths of Anduin the Great.}>>
TE-SL-04 <Tal-Elmar
In the days of the Dark Kings, … by name Hazad Longbeard. TE-SL-05{(1)} Two prides he had: … and quick to violence.
Save one only, … harder to elude.
A fair voice he had, … that the flint-flash was seen in his eyes.
For Tal-elmar had a strange belief … and it was now two years since either of his brothers had dared to break it. TE-SL-06{(2)}
Hazad loved this youngest son dearly, … driving before them the ancient dwellers in the lands.
Not without resistance. … with their wains and their cattle and their women.
Now Buldar, father of Hazad, had been in the army of the North King TE-SL-07{(3)} that went to the muster of Ishmalog, TE-SL-08{(4)} and he brought back from the war as booty a wound, and a sword, and a woman. … a strange folk that I deem base and unlovely.'
'So be it,' said Buldar. … White skins and bright eyes are no warrant for such deeds.'
'Are they not?' … and the downfall of your king.'
Thereafter Elmar said no more on this matter; … for no woman of his own folk seemed desirable to him that knew what beauty in a woman might be. TE-SL-09{(5)}
Not that many were his for the wooing, for, … and had so named him at birth.
And it chanced on a morning … and he wondered that they sat upon the sea and did not fly.
'I see three strange birds … unlike any that I have seen before.'
'Keen may be thine eyes in youth, my son, … or some dream is on thee.'
'Nay, the sun is behind me, … the Swans of Gorbelgod, TE-SL-10{(6)} of which legends tell. … for its wings are black.'
Then Hazad was troubled. … a vision out of the black past?'
'Thou forgettest, father, … what is in thy mind.'
'Dost thou not?' … upon the shining sea?'
'Hard enough, indeed, … make ready for flight or for defence.'
'I come, … any rash counsel of battle.'
'We will see, … those who can are bound to defend it, I deem.'

So Hazad and his son went down the hill-side, … the Hills of Agar were far from hostile borders where the power of the Fourth King TE-SL-11{(7)} ended. … the open place in the midst of the houses.
'Hail! Master of Agar! … did not return his greeting.
'Sit hail, Master! … birds of ill omen on the water.'
'Ships of the Go-hilleg, … Three white - and one black.'
The master yawned. … Go to the travelling knappers[Footnote to the text: knappers: a 'knapper' was one who broke stones or flints. TE-SL-12{ This word replaced 'tinkers', here and at its occurrence a little later.}] with thy crone-tales of Go-hilleg, and trouble me not with such folly. I have other matters of more weight to ponder.'
Hazad swallowed his wrath, … Blear eyes may see more than those lidded with sleep.'
The fat face of Mogru the Master grew dark, … then go summon the men from the fields.'
Tal-elmar observed him closely … I will be your messenger.'
And Mogru also through the slits of his eyelids … Slowly he rose.
'I will come, … leaned heavily upon him.

'My father is the elder, … when they came to the top.
Then again Tal-elmar looked out … followed his gaze.
'For what reason, … What mean ye?'
'Have patience and look closer,' … And was it not a matter that the Master should see with his own eyes?'
Mogru stared, and he panted, … but he let not his smile be seen.
'You begged to be my messenger, … It is time of peril to the town.'

Hazad seemed about to speak in protest … The peril was great.
Once more Tal-elmar looked at the Master, … Mogru saw it and quailed.
'Go, go! … Go at once!'
'Go, my son! … For better would be ill tidings brought by thee living than the Sea-men without herald.'
Tal-elmar bowed … laid hands on his staff.

Mogru cringed, … Heardest thou not the words of thy father?'
'I heard, and I obey, … I will not beat thee with it yet!'
With that he wrested the staff from Mogru's hand … the downs by the shore.
It was still morning, … For all his folk dreaded the forest[Footnote to the text: {A marginal note here says that }Tal-elmar had {'}no weapon but a casting-stone in a pouch{'}.]
TE-SL-13{Here the typescript text breaks off, not at the foot of a page, and the manuscript 'Continuation of Tal-Elmar' (as the name is now written) begins (see p. 422).

}It was swift for the eye to travel to the shore … to the town and its master.
So, helped a little perhaps by his pride, … all others like him.
With this thought growing in him, … Tall men were standing or walking among them. Away on the 'big boats' Tal-Elmar could see TE-SL-14{[?}others{]} on watch; every now and then he caught a flash as some weapon or arms moved in the sun. He trembled, for the tales of the 'blades' of the Cruel Men were familiar to his childhood.
Tal-Elmar looked long, … for he would not understand a word of their language.
He remembered suddenly … marauders from the village of Udul far inland, TE-SL-15{(11)} all men feared that an assault would come, … never daring to be caught by dark[Footnote to the text: Dark is {"}the time of the King{"}.] outside their homes. … was even known to go out to the watch-hill alone under the stars.
But to creep into the unfriendly fields of Udul … The tones seemed mournful and full of fear[Footnote to the text: {In the margin my father wrote that the}The village of Udul was dying of a pestilence, and the marauders were in fact seeking food in desperation.] (as men's voices were at night in the world as he knew it), and a few words he seemed to recognize, but not enough for understanding. … the feeling that he was not going to meet aliens but kinsmen from afar and friends.
And yet he was also a boy of his village. … the water was kindled to fiery gold.
He had seen the sun sink into the sea before, yet never before had he seen it so. He knew in a flash (as if it came from that fire itself) that he had seen it so, TE-SL-16{[? }he was called, TE-SL-17{](13)} that it meant something more than the approach of the 'King's time', the dark. TE-SL-18{(14)} He rose and as if led or driven walked openly down the hill and across the long sward to the shingles and the tents.

Could he have seen himself he would have been struck with wonder no less than those who saw him now from the shore. His naked skin - for he wore only a loin-cloth, and little cloak of TE-SL-19{ ...} fur cast back and caught by a thong to his shoulder - glowed golden in the TE-SL-20{[? }sunset{]} light, his fair hair too was kindled, and his step was light and free.
'Look!' cried one of the watchmen to his companion. 'Do you - see what I see? Is it not one of the Eldar of the woods that comes to speak with us?'
'I see indeed,' said the other, 'but if not some phantom from the edge of the TE-SL-21{[? }coming{]} dark TE-SL-22{[? }in this land accursed{]} it cannot be one of the Fair. We are far to the south, and none dwell here. Would indeed we were TE-SL-23{[? }north away near to {(}the{)} Havens{]}.'
'Who knows all the ways of the Eldar?' said the watchman. 'Silence now! He approaches. Let him speak first.'
So they stood still, … a gesture which all men could understand.
Then, as they did not move, … Who are you?'
His voice was clear and fair, … led him to a tent where sat one in authority.
Tal-Elmar feels the language to be known and only veiled from him.TE-SL-24 <moved from below
They make Tal-Elmar at last understand their desire to know how many men dwell near; are they friendly, are they like he is?
The object of the Númenorëans is to occupy this land, and in alliance with the 'Cruels' of the North to drive out the Dark People and make a settlement to threaten the King. TE-SL-25{ (Or is this while Sauron is absent in Númenor?)
The place is on estuary of Isen? or Morthond.

}Tal-Elmar could count and understand high numbers, though his language was defective.

TE-SL-26 <editorial addition Speaking to his men the captian changed to Eldarin, since these were Elf-friends. He>{The captain} says Tal-Elmar must be of Númenorëan race, or of the people akin to them. He must be kindly treated. He guesses that he had been made captive as a babe, or born of captives. 'He is trying to escape to us,' he says.
'A pity he remembers nothing of the languageTE-SL-27 <editorial addition of his parents, it should be akin to Andunaic>.' 'He will learn.' 'Maybe, but after a long time. If he spoke it now, he could tell us much that would speed our errand and lessen our peril.'
TE-SL-28{They make Tal-Elmar at last understand their desire to know how many men dwell near; are they friendly, are they like he is?
The object of the Númenorëans is to occupy this land, and in alliance with the 'Cruels' of the North to drive out the Dark People and make a settlement to threaten the King.{ (Or is this while Sauron is absent in Númenor?)
The place is on estuary of Isen? or Morthond.

Tal-Elmar could count and understand high numbers, though his language was defective.
Or does he understand Númenorëan? [Added subsequently: Eldarin - these were Elf-friends.] He}Tal-Elmar said when he heard the men speak to one another: 'This is strange for you speak the language of my long dreams. … whether awake or in vision.'
'Who are the Eldar?' said Tal-Elmar. 'That name I did not hear in my dream.'
'If you come with us you may perhaps see them.'
Then suddenly fear and the memory of old tales … give me to the Dark?'
'You or your kin at least belong already to the Dark, … our captain have passed further up the water.'
Still Tal-Elmar was afraid … I would not be torn from him not even to see the Eldar.'
'Alas!' they said. … or be slain.'
Tal-Elmar offers himself as a hostage.

TE-SL-29 <Tal-Elmar, hasty note {Beginnings of}This is a tale that sees the Númenorëans from the point of view of the Wild Men. {It was begun without much consideration of geography (or the situation as envisaged in The Lord of the Rings). But either it must remain as a separate tale only vaguely linked with the developed Lord of the Rings history, or - and I think so - it must}It does recount the coming of the Númenorëans (Elf-friends){ before the Downfall}, and represent their choice of permanent havens. So the geography must be{ made to fit} that of the mouths of Anduin and the Langstrand.> TE-SL-30 <editorial addition Since in the year >TE-SL-31 <LotR; Appendix B 2350 Pelargir {is}was built{. It becomes}which became the chief haven of the Faithful Númenoreans.>
There is no moreTE-SL-32 <editorial addition tale of the later live of Tal-Elmar and the people of Agar>.{ At the foot of the page my father wrote 'Tal-Elmar' twice, and his own name twice; and also}TE-SL-33 <editorial addition but it is said that >{'}Tal-Elmar {in}came later to Rhovannion{', '} and Wilderland{', '}/and that he saw /Anduin the Great River{'}, {'}Sea of Rhun{',} and {'}the Ettenmoors{'}.
>
TE-SL-34<Of Dwarves and Men On the relations of the different kinds of Men in Eriador and Rhovanion to the Atani and other Men met in the legends of the First Age and the War of the Jewels TE-SL-35{see The Lord of the Rings II.286-7 [in the chapter The Window on the West]. There Faramir gives}can be given a brief account of the{ contemporary} classification{ in Gondor} of Men into three kinds: High Men, or Numenoreans (of more or less pure descent); Middle Men; and Men of Darkness. The Men of Darkness was a general term applied to all those who were hostile to the Kingdoms, and who were (or appeared in TE-SL-36{Gondor}Númenor to be) moved by something more than human greed … of race or culture or language. TE-SL-37{With regard to Middle Men Faramir spoke mainly of the Rohirrim, the only people of this sort well-known in Gondor in his time, and attributed to them actual direct descent from the Folk of Hador in the First Age. This was a general belief in Gondor at that time,(61) and was held to explain (to the comfort of Numenorean pride) the surrender of so large a part of the Kingdom to the people of Eorl.}
The term Middle Men, … It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand TE-SL-38{(62)} or were actually known to the Numenoreans.
In the days of the earlier settlements of Numenor … as far as the inflow of the Little Lune. TE-SL-39{(63)} (Beyond that was Dwarf territory.) TE-SL-40{(64)} South of the Lune it had no clear bounds, but the Tower Hills (as they were later called) were maintained as an outpost.[Footnote to the text: Gil-galad's people were mainly Noldorin; though in the Second Age the Elves of Harlindon were mainly Sindarin, and the region was a fief under the rule of Celeborn. TE-SL-41{[In the prefatory note to the annals of the Second Age in Appendix B it is said: 'In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol'; see Unfinished Tales p. 233 and note 2, where the present note is referred to.]}] The Minhiriath and the western half of Enedhwaith between the Greyflood and the Isen were still covered with dense forest. TE-SL-42{(66)} The shores of the Bay of Belfalas were still mainly desolate, except for a haven and small settlement of Elves at the mouth of the confluence of Morthond and Ringlo. TE-SL-43 {[Footnote to the text: This according to the traditions of Dol Amroth had been established by seafaring Sindar … see Unfinished Tales, pp. 246 - 7 and note 18 on p. 255.]]} But it was long before the Numenorean … may indeed have been fugitives from the Atani who did not leave Middle-earth but fled eastward.)
Thus it came about that the Numenorean term Middle Men … the Great Harbour at the mouth of the Greyflood) became reckless. TE-SL-44{[See Unfinished Tales, p. 262, on the tree-felling of the Numenoreans in Minhiriath and Enedhwaith. Of the kinship of the forest-dwellers of those regions with the People of Haleth there is no suggestion elsewhere (see also note 72 below). With the following sentence in the text, 'In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings' cf. Unfinished Tales, p. 263: 'From Enedwaith they [the native people fleeing from the Numenoreans] took refuge in the eastern mountains where afterwards was Dunland'.]}] and this hatred remained unappeased in their descendants, causing them to join with any enemies of Numenor. In the Third Age their survivors were the people known in Rohan as the Dunlendings.

There was also the matter of language. TE-SL-45{It was six hundred years after the departure of the survivors of the Atani oversea to Numenor that a ship came first to Middle-earth again out of the West and passed up the Gulf of Lune.(70)

The story that follows, recounting the meeting of the Numenorean mariners with twelve Men of Eriador on the Tower Hills, their mutual recognition of an ancient kinship, and their discovery that their languages though profoundly changed were of common origin, has been given in Unfinished Tales, pp. 213-14.(71) Following the conclusion of that extract (ending with the words 'they found that they shared very many words still clearly recognizable, and others that could be understood with attention, and they were able to converse haltingly about simple matters') the essay continues as follows.

Thus it}It came about that a kinship in language, even if this was only recognizable after close acquaintance, was felt by the Numenoreans to be one of the marks of 'Middle-men'.[Footnote to the text: This may have been one of the reasons why the Numenoreans failed to recognize the Forest-folk of Minhiriath as 'kinsmen', and confused them with Men of the Shadow; for as has been noted the native language of the Folk of Haleth was not related to the language of the Folks of Hador and Bëor.]
The loremasters of later days … by those unlearned in the history of tongues.
As the long years passed … the 'vulgar tongue' began to spread far and wide as a lingua franca among peoples of many different kinds.

Some comments on my editing:
BY-HL-15: The chapter does include 3 parts: a kind of introduction from the Akallabêth, the story of Tal-Elmar and a part giving the categorisation of Men by the Númenorians.

TE-SL-01: We take up the text of the Akallabêth were we left it. But since there is a lot of text in between, I added a clarification for the reference.

TE-SL-02 & TE-SL-03: The reference to Pelargir has to go, since the Númenorians in Tal-Elmar are said to establish that haven.

TE-SL-04: Here we start with the story of Tal-Elmar.

TE-SL-05, TE-SL-06, TE-SL-07, TE-SL-08, TE-SL-09, TE-SL-10, TE-SL-11, TE-SL-15, TE-SL-17, TE-SL-18, TE-SL-38, TE-SK-39, TE-SL-40, TE-SL-42: A footnote with comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

TE-SL-12, TE-SL-13, TE-SL-41, TE-SL-44: A comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

TE-SL-14, TE-SL-16, TE-SL-20, TE-SL-21, TE-SL-22, TE-SL-23: Christopher Tolkiens guess of what might be the meaning is the best we have.

TE-SL-19: Since the sentence makes sense without what ever had JRR Tolkien in mind, we leave it simply out.

TE-SL-24: The reconstruction of the end is difficult. But I think this arrangement makes most sense.

TE-SL-25: JRR Tolkien speculating about his own writing has to go.

TE-SL-26, TE-SL-27: To form a text I needed a bit that was not to be found.

TE-SL-28: This was in part moved.

TE-SL-29 to TE-SL-33: This last end of the text is so scanty that we need a lot of expansion and still are left with a fragment. If some in has a better idea of how to get a nice text, I would be happy to read it.

TE-SL-34: Here I think is the right place to give the discussion about the categories of Men that the Númenoreans made.

TE-SL-35 to TE-SL-37: The references to Faramir have to go, since they belong to the essay like character of the text.

TE-SL-43: The footnote was used in the chapter Of the Rings of Power.

TE-SL-45: This was used in the chapter Aldarion and Erendis.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

TE-SL-01: This is fine, but I would edit it differently:

TE-SL-01 <Akallabêth Then Tar-Ancalimon, son of Atanamir, became King, and he was of like mind to his father; and in his day ...

It flows better.
I also wonder if we can include the Adunaic translation of the term 'Faithful,' like so:

... the Elf-friends; TE-SL-01.5 <based on Hist. of Akalla [Footnote: Nimruzîrim in the Adûnaic tongue.]> for though they ....

TE-SL-11: In Note 3, CT says that Tolkien changed all occurences of 'Fourth King' to 'North King' except here. However, it is clearly the North King that is meant, and so I would say we should change it to North King, since Tolkien clearly missed this occurrence.

TE-SL-12.5: There is no marker near this, but at the place where you removed footnote #9, the sentence as Tolkien wrote it is grammatically incorrect (which is why CT marked it with a footnote.) I suggest we fix it:

'I heard, and I obey,' said Tal-elmar. 'But first errand is to the men, and there is need now of haste. Little honor have I among them, for they know well thy scorn of us. What heed will they pay, if TE-SL-12.5 one of the Slave's bastards, as thou namest us when I am not by, comes {(9)}

TE-SL-16: This is grammatically meaningless, so if we are to include it at all (which I am hesitant to do) we should add a 'that' before the 'he was called.'

TE-SL-24: I think this is fine, but it needs to be edited so that the tense agrees:

TE-SL-24 <moved from below They {make}made Tal-Elmar at last understand their desire to know how many men {dwell}dwelt near; {are}were they friendly, {are}were they like he {is}was?
The object of the Númenóreans {is}was to occupy this land, and in alliance with the 'Cruels' of the North to drive out the Dark People and make a settlement to threaten the King. TE-SL-25 {(Or is this while Sauron is absent in Númenor?)The place is on estuary of Isen? or Morthond.}Tal-Elmar could count and understand high numbers, though his language was defective.

TE-SL-26: I would change the editorial addition to be shorter and smoother, and the tenses must also be changed to agree:

TE-SL-26 <editorial addition The captain spoke then in Eldarin, since these were Elf-friends. He>{The captain says}said that Tal-Elmar must be of Númenórean race, or of the people akin to them. He must be kindly treated. He {guesses}guessed that he had been made captive as a babe, or born of captives. 'He is trying to escape to us,' he {says}said.

This is just shorter and smoother, and I think flows better.

TE-SL-27: I do not think we need this addition, since it is a pity if he knows nothing of the language either way, and I find this addition to be too much of a liberty.

TE-SL-29: This is indeed a very difficult thing to make. I proposed a few minor changes to this addition (mostly tense or things to improve the flow):

... it must recount}It recounts the coming of the Númenóreans (Elf-friends) {before the Downfall}, and {represent}represents their choice of permanent havens. {So the}The geography must be {made to fit} that of the mouths of Anduin and the Langstrand{.},> TE-SL-30 <editorial addition since in the year> TE-SL-31 <LotR; Appendix B 2350 Pelargir ...

In addition, the last sentence of the Tal-Elmar story before this paragraph (Tal-Elmar offers himself as a hostage.) should be 'offered' instead of 'offers' because of tense agreement.

TE-SL-32/33: I think this paragraph is not good to include. We cannot say at all that Tal-Elmar ever went to those places (as indeed seems impossible, since the Numenorean power never reached nearly so far inland) and these names represent Tolkien simply jotting down rapid ideas without any thoughts about the story or plot attached. Therefore, I think we should end it with:

There is no more TE-SL-32 <editorial addition told of Tal-elmar>.

This way we avoid the entire subject of what is essentially guided fanfiction.

TE-SL-35: I would just say that where you removed "in Gondor" it should be replaced with "by the Númenóreans" in order to preserve the fact that it was specific to the people of Numenor, and nota facet of, say, Elvish culture as well.

TE-SL-41: I would remove the entire footnote, since we used it in Of the Rings of Power, and I see no real need to repeat it here.

TE-SL-43: I would like to keep the bit about the Silvan Elves being Middle-Elves by Numenorean classification if possible, like this:

... who came down the Anduin.} The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification, though unknown to the Atani until later days. {: for they were like the Sindar Teleri, ...

This may then be moved earlier to a place where it would make more sense, possibly right after TE-SL-38:

TE-SL-38 {(62)} or were actually known to the Númenóreans. TE-SL-38.5 <moved from later [Footnote: {Gil-galad’s people ... came down the Anduin.} The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification, though unknown to the Atani until later days.]>

This way we preserve the only unused piece of the part we removed for use in Of the Rings of Power.

TE-SL-46: At the very last sentence of the chapter, the term 'linga franca' is used. This is a term that references the French language and its commonality in Europe as a language to communicate across countries, and I think strikes me as too meta-commentative in its use here. Therefore I marked it with this marker and I propose changing it to 'common speech.' This has the same meaning but without the real-world jargon.

[Findegil]

This is the nice thing about a group effort: each member looks for some different aspects, and so the result is always much bettern than everything I could have done single handed.

I agree to nearly all suggestions, and I thank you for pointing them out ArcusCalion! Only in two passages we are not fully in line:

Only TE-SL-32 & TE-SL-33 I see diffrent. Yes, what we have is Tolkien thinking with the pen, but what he sets on paper does fit mostly to the tale he has told before: Tal-Elmar has got his special heritage from 'the cruels from the north'. These as the geography stands must be the Northman. And we are told that Númenóreans have formed a alliance with them. Thus the Númenórean influence is much greater than you thought. And we do not say that Tal-Elmar did visit these places with the Númenórans. With the alliance just memtioned and Tal-Elmar story of the live of his grand-mother it is highly probable that he would visit the Northman and live for a time at least with them. Thus he might easily see Rhovannion, Wilderland Anduin and the See of Rhun. The Ettenmoors are a diffrent case and might belong to an older idea of the placing of Agar. So I would agree to remove the Ettenmoors. But the rest seems fully in line with the tale, so that I do not see any good reason not to mention them.

TE-SL-46: I agree to this change, but only hesitatingly. We have before used such real world jargon in linguistical sentences. But since it is here not so much a comparision with later day as simply a word used for the function of the language I agree to the change.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

TE-SL-32/33: I interpreted the Cruels of the North as the Elves, but I suppose this does not work with the fact that he does not know what the Eldar are. I will then agree to the change, so long as the Ettenmoors are removed, since as you say, they do not fit the theme of the rest of the locations. However, I would make some small grammatical changes to keep it looking good:

There is no more TE-SL-32 <editorial addition told of Tal-Elmar and the people of Agar,>{ At the foot of the page my father wrote 'Tal-Elmar' twice, and his own name twice; and also} TE-SL-33 <editorial addition but it is said that> {'}Tal-Elmar {in}came later to Rhovanion{', '} and Wilderland{'}, {'}/and that he saw /Anduin the Great River{','}and the Sea of Rhûn{','Ettenmoors'}.>

[Findegil]

That is fine for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

I have a few comments:

1) When Tolkien continued the manuscript it appears he changed the name "Tal-elmar" to "Tal-Elmar". I propose we change it throughout the chapter for consistency, since this seems to be a later idea.

2) There is one instance right before TE-SL-24 where the tense needs to be changed for agreement:

Tal-Elmar TE-SL-23.5{feels}felt the language to be known and only veiled from him.

3) I propose a re-organization. I think it should start with an preface which gives background information and discusses the kinds of men:

TE-SL-34<Of Dwarves and Men On the relations of the different kinds of Men...began to spread far and wide as a TE-SL-46 {lingua franca}common speech among peoples of many different kinds.

Then an introduction to the tale itself:

TE-SL-29 <Tal-Elmar, hasty note {Beginnings of}This is a tale that sees the Númenóreans...the chief haven of the Faithful Númenoreans .>

Then comes the story itself:

TE-SL-01 <Akallabêth Then Tar-Ancalimon, son of Atanamir...Tal-Elmar offers himself as a hostage.>

Finally it ends with:

There is no more TE-SL-32 <editorial addition told of Tal-Elmar and the people of Agar,>{ At the foot of the page my father wrote 'Tal-Elmar' twice, and his own name twice; and also} TE-SL-33 <editorial addition but it is said that> {'}Tal-Elmar {in}came later to Rhovanion{', '} and Wilderland{'}, {'}/and that he saw /Anduin the Great River{','}and the Sea of Rhûn{','Ettenmoors'}.>

[Findegil]

1) {Tal-elmar}[Tal-Elmar]: Agreed. I added this to the General Changes.

2) Agreed.

3) I agree to the re-arrangement. But at the beginning of TE-SL-01 we have to remove the ‘Then’ because in this agrangment we have removed it reference.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

1) Agreed.

2) Agreed

3) I actually do not see the need to move these sections around. I can see wanting to move TE-SL-29 in between TE-SL-03 and 04 to provide an immediate intro to the story, but the section about the MIddle Men uses the terms 'Faithful' and 'King's Men' and describes Ar-Adunakhor and the linguistic conflicts that arose in Numenor, so to place it before we are told of that in the section under TE-SL-01 does not make sense for me. It fits much better at the end where Fin had it originally. I see no real reason to rearrange it.

[gandalf85]

3) OK, I don't have an extremely strong opinion either way as to whether the discussion about the kinds of men and linguistic discussions should come before and after the story of Tal-Elmar. I suppose you're probably right, Arcus, placing these materials after the story probably works better. But I do think the section which starts "This is a tale..." and ending with "...chief haven of the Faithful Númenoreans." should be moved right before TE-SL-04.

[Findegil]

3) I have as well no strong opinion on the arangement. So we will take ArcusCalions suggestion.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I am fine with that gandalf.