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Old 06-14-2021, 08:01 AM   #481
Galadriel55
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I am in a bit of a dilemma. I am trying to translate Beren's title (knyaz), and this one word is proving more difficult than doing word-play and puns and weird expressions and other language tricks. As far as my research shows, Beren and his predecessors only held the title of Lord of Ladros. In this fic though, he is often addressed as knyaz or knyazhich (son of a knyaz). His mother Emeldir is a knyaginya. And I have no idea how to put that into English.

Because. Knyaz translates to "prince". "Prince" has two meanings, son of a king, and person who rules more or less independently but still under a king. The "Princes of the Noldor" actually fulfill both criteria, being descendants of Finwe as well as rulers of their own lands under the High King of the Noldor. Semantically, the word is fine. But it's as limp as a dead fish. It's flimsy. And very awkward in the feminine. Luthien is a princess - but you just can't call Emeldir a princess. (As an aside, I wonder if the person who called Nerwen "princess" would ever be able to speak again, if the word is taken with all the modern connotations). And even for the male title holders, it's still questionable, and creates confusion. I don't want to make it "prince". I'm not calling Beren a "duke", another possible direct translation. Alternatively, could be translated even as "chieftain", but that lacks the right air. I don't know what to call him.

So, I searched the length of Wikipedia and Google in general for title ideas, and gave up on finding anything that would be a perfect replacement. For now I have the male as "prince" and female as "lady", but I want to change it to something decently suitable. The possibilities right now that I see:

1) Leave the title as Lord, and then Lady for the female. Not my favourite, because lords are bountiful in Beleriand, and knyaz in the fic is specific for Edain rulers (perhaps even just Beoring rulers - I don't quite remember). Also, "lord" is more general, and can mean anything from a High King to a respectful title without any authority or lands attached.

2) Earl and, dunno, Lady again. Wiki's definition is close to what I'm looking for: "The title originates in the Old English word eorl, meaning "a man of noble birth or rank". The word is cognate with the Scandinavian form jarl, and meant "chieftain", particularly a chieftain set to rule a territory in a king's stead." I already had half a mind to call him Jarl, except the J is visually jarring. So Earl would be a good replacement... except that it is very much Eorl and Rohan. And I sort of imagined that in the language development of ME, the title Eorl and related words came after the name Eorl, in the manner of "Caesar" in our world. Of course, I can write it off as a "translation from Taliska" thing, where the more "modern" word is used to translate the title in full knowledge that Beren's "real" title would have sounded different. Or, alternatively, if Eorl was named "noble" for an existing word, then the word use is completely justified. There is also "Count/Countess" which is a similar real world title, but I don't like it as much, it's a bit too Comte and French.

3) Something that means "King" but sounds distinct. Perhaps a variation of konung. That might be an acceptable solution, though it also has the feminine problem, and will be slightly problematic for me personally, because "konung" is the word my LOTR translation uses for Kings of Rohan.


Any thoughts or suggestions? What sounds less jarring - Earl Beren? Cyning Beren?
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Old 06-14-2021, 08:47 AM   #482
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Any thoughts or suggestions? What sounds less jarring - Earl Beren? Cyning Beren?
It's quite possible that Beren's title was formally Beor. It's a Taliska word meaning "vassal", which was taken by Balan as a personal name; the Fingolfin/Finarfin case shows that adopting the first king's name as (part of) your own was a Middle-earth concept.

Liege is a viable translation of beor, in the sense of 'The subject of a sovereign or lord; a liegeman'. But in more common use, it refers to the sovereign or lord themselves: Monty Python and the Holy Grail, of all things, uses this ("Bedevere, my liege!"). If we picture Beren as a feudal lord, it's a very possible word.

Landgrave is exactly right for Beren's position - he's a major landowner who owes fealty directly to Finrod as overlord. But it's maybe a bit long, and too modern-sounding even though nobody knows the word.

If you want to go for something people will recognise but not immediately be able to place - Thane, as in "Hail Macbeth, Thane of Cawdor". Actually that might be a really good option - it's a title for landowners under the crown, but it's also the origin of Thain (of the Shire). Middle-earth precendent!

Unlike a lot of the others, you can also use it in all positions - "My Thane", "Thane Beren", "Beren, Thane of Dorthonion". It doesn't have a historical feminine form (because sexism & patriarchy), but it ultimately derives from the same roots as "thine", the pronoun. Thine is the source of German dein, which in the feminine is deine - 'thine-a(h)'. A female title Thana or Thegna would fit in nicely. Or go full Hobbit and just do Thain/Thaina.

I'm kind of inclined towards Thane/Thegna myself; the feminine is different enough that it looks natural, while not being so different that you can't connect the two.

hS
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Old 06-14-2021, 11:36 AM   #483
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I'm kind of inclined towards Thane/Thegna myself; the feminine is different enough that it looks natural, while not being so different that you can't connect the two.
Hui, you are brilliant! I am going for Thane/Thegna. I am going back through the document and cutting out all the "princes" to Angband where they belong. Maybe make up a Thaneling (Thegnling?) for a Thane's child too, unless there is already a word for this.

Would the word still apply to pre-Beor chiefs who did not have land or fealty, only chiefdom? They aren't a problem, they can be "chieftains" without any difficulty, just a point of interest.
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Old 06-14-2021, 02:34 PM   #484
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Hui, you are brilliant! I am going for Thane/Thegna. I am going back through the document and cutting out all the "princes" to Angband where they belong. Maybe make up a Thaneling (Thegnling?) for a Thane's child too, unless there is already a word for this.
You know, I don't think most of the titles have diminutive forms like that. 'Prince' isn't etymologically related to 'queen', for instance; and 'baronet' is an entirely separate title to 'baron'.

In the English peerage, a son of a peer can often use his father's highest secondary title (if he doesn't have one of his own). James, Viscount Severn, is actually the son of the real Viscount Severn - who is also Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, and so doesn't need to be a viscount.

So as son of Thane Barahir, Beren would be Lord Beren (of Ladros). I think that the husband of a ruling Thegn (it's Galadriel again, I guess?) would also take a secondary title, on the grounds that male titles usually outrank female ones (did I already mention sexism?).

If you want to avoid getting lords all over the place, I think "Thaneson" would be the most likely form. The female would be "Thanesdottir", or some variant with different vowels: -dotter, -datter.

Alternately, apparently English uses -ing as a patronymic, so "Thegning" or "Thaning" might work? They both look a bit clumsy though. "Thaining" would preserve the sound, but looks like a typo for training. "Thanet" should be avoided like the plague.

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Would the word still apply to pre-Beor chiefs who did not have land or fealty, only chiefdom? They aren't a problem, they can be "chieftains" without any difficulty, just a point of interest.
I think "Chieftain" would be best for them, because it's explicitly the title of Lady Haleth's heirs, who had no overlord. You could almost imagine they used it in defiance: yeah, we're just chieftains, none of your fancy Thanes and Lords and whatnot - but at least we're free.

hS
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Old 06-14-2021, 05:49 PM   #485
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Well, just as I said that "thane" is only for Edain, I came across a "Thane Maedhros" - but it's said by a Beoring. I clearly haven't paid sufficient attention when I read this. What still needs to be proven though is whether "thane" would ever be used by an Elf to refer to another Elf. In any case, I kept Maedhros as Lord, leaving Thanes for the mortals.

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You know, I don't think most of the titles have diminutive forms like that.
I know, but they should. (Well, I think so, because they do in Russian). Generally, English doesn't do as much word-building as Russian does, and I think this is part of it. I can't think of children-titles for all titles, but for some certainly. Going with knyaz, there are knyaginya (wife), knyazhich (son), and knyazhna (daughter). For king (korol) there is a related queen (koroleva); while "prince/princess" are usually used for their children by analogy to Western European languages, there is a possible "korolevich / korolevna" for their children. In fact, Luthien in this fic is a "korolevna" to Korol Thingol. But it's a moot point, mainly - I don't think the children-titles appear often enough to be ungainly, at least for "thane".

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Originally Posted by Hui
I think "Chieftain" would be best for them, because it's explicitly the title of Lady Haleth's heirs, who had no overlord. You could almost imagine they used it in defiance: yeah, we're just chieftains, none of your fancy Thanes and Lords and whatnot - but at least we're free.
...Right. Which means I have to go back and make sure I actually call the Haladin leader a Chieftain. I am having trouble keeping my languages and canonicities straight... But it's worth it, I think. This book does a lot of world-building and language-building, a lot of it Elvish that goes over my head (there are too many Elvish dialects for their own good, and for mine too) but quite a bit of it real-language word-smithying, which is both confusing and delightful to track.

Currently my difficult word is "esteemed" as a form of address, as in "my dear Frodo", but when you want to say someone is not dear but, well, esteemed. I can totally hear the concept in my head playing out for someone like Bilbo (a respectable hobbit, one must say!), or Thorin (a most respectable and admirable Dwarf) - but while it sounds decent in third person I am not sure how it plays out as an epithet of address. "Most esteemed Bilbo, you are a wonderful hobbit and all, but so much journeying about across the Brandywine simply cannot be good for a hobbit!" Ugh.
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:21 AM   #486
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Well, just as I said that "thane" is only for Edain, I came across a "Thane Maedhros" - but it's said by a Beoring. I clearly haven't paid sufficient attention when I read this. What still needs to be proven though is whether "thane" would ever be used by an Elf to refer to another Elf. In any case, I kept Maedhros as Lord, leaving Thanes for the mortals.
Well, we do use what we're used to. I think Maedhros would be quite put out at being referred to as a vassal-lord, but that doesn't mean a Beoring wouldn't do it.

Given the ambiguity inherent in whether Maedhros is a king or not (he's in a similar position to Finrod, except for the abdication thing), 'Governor' or 'Warden' might actually be my preferred title for him. He is, theoretically, running Himring in the name of the High King, and it sets up a nice modern/ancient dichotomy with the Thane title. For additional ambiguity, the other Feanorions could just be "prince".

(It is possible that I choose my words based entirely on what would wind House Feanor up the most.)

(More historically, the name of the March of Maedhros suggests the Marcher Lords. I note that the Welsh term is cognate with 'baron'.)

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I know, but they should. (Well, I think so, because they do in Russian). Generally, English doesn't do as much word-building as Russian does, and I think this is part of it. I can't think of children-titles for all titles, but for some certainly. Going with knyaz, there are knyaginya (wife), knyazhich (son), and knyazhna (daughter). For king (korol) there is a related queen (koroleva); while "prince/princess" are usually used for their children by analogy to Western European languages, there is a possible "korolevich / korolevna" for their children. In fact, Luthien in this fic is a "korolevna" to Korol Thingol. But it's a moot point, mainly - I don't think the children-titles appear often enough to be ungainly, at least for "thane".
No need to invent diminutives when you can just find another language and mug it for vocab!

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...Right. Which means I have to go back and make sure I actually call the Haladin leader a Chieftain.
I mean, you don't have to. It looks like the Haladin word being translated is just "Hal", meaning 'chief' or 'head'. I'm now amused by the idea of The Hal and The Beor both using the other's title as a veiled insult. ^_^ (Note: both of these are technically 'Taliska' words, from back when Taliska was the language of both Haleth and Beor. Given that both remain in use, we can probably assume they were split when Tolkien decided they were different languages.) Unlike the Beor, there's no overlord to give the Hal a different title - unless you think Thingol has come up with a word for 'that grubby lot squatting in my borderlands'.

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I am having trouble keeping my languages and canonicities straight... But it's worth it, I think. This book does a lot of world-building and language-building, a lot of it Elvish that goes over my head (there are too many Elvish dialects for their own good, and for mine too) but quite a bit of it real-language word-smithying, which is both confusing and delightful to track.
It does sound like a lot of fun.

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Currently my difficult word is "esteemed" as a form of address, as in "my dear Frodo", but when you want to say someone is not dear but, well, esteemed. I can totally hear the concept in my head playing out for someone like Bilbo (a respectable hobbit, one must say!), or Thorin (a most respectable and admirable Dwarf) - but while it sounds decent in third person I am not sure how it plays out as an epithet of address. "Most esteemed Bilbo, you are a wonderful hobbit and all, but so much journeying about across the Brandywine simply cannot be good for a hobbit!" Ugh.
I mean... you sound like Gandalf when you say that, so I think it works? Except I'd go with "my" over "most", like with 'dear'. Looking at terms of address in the British peerages, it looks like we mostly use Honourable and Reverend, with an occasional Much Honoured (Scottish feudal barons), Most Noble (Dukes and Marquesses), or Venerable (Anglican Archdeacons). So not a lot of use there. Given that English letter-writing went all-in on 'dear' a long time ago, I'm not sure you'll improve on 'esteemed' unless you literally stumble across something.

hS
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Old 06-15-2021, 02:34 AM   #487
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Of course you could also go all-in on the "Taliska is based on Gothic" factoid and call everyone Frauja Beren, þiudans Finrod, Reiks Maedhros etc.

No?

hS
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Old 06-15-2021, 09:31 PM   #488
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Well, we do use what we're used to. I think Maedhros would be quite put out at being referred to as a vassal-lord, but that doesn't mean a Beoring wouldn't do it.
That's the thing though - "knyaz" doesn't have to be a vassal-lord, he can be an independent ruler in his own right. Could technically be a landless ruler too, a chieftain, especially if said in the diminutive. The whole lot of them could be knyaz. But they can't all be thanes. So Maedhros will stick to being a lord, I think.

(Knyaz is just a very difficult word, but "thane" is an absolutely inspired suggestion for the bulk of its meaning)

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Originally Posted by Hui
(It is possible that I choose my words based entirely on what would wind House Feanor up the most.)
You and Beren have that in common.

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Originally Posted by Hui
No need to invent diminutives when you can just find another language and mug it for vocab!
Lol. I mean, a mishmash of stolen vocab is both English's beauty and its downfall.

My most recent language discovery is actually in relation to "happy", and happened (pun totally intended) because of the French Red and Black. I remember putting "malheur" there for "misfortune" or something similar, and it got me thinking, and that got me searching, and I discovered a three-language correlation between positive emotions and luck. ^.^ Because in French, the words malheur (misfortune), bonheur (wellbeing, happiness), and the adjectives hereux (happy) and malhereux (unhappy) all come from "heur", an obsolete word meaning something like "chance, luck, fortune". And what do you know? In English, if you happen (=chance) to be happy (=lucky), your hap (=luck) probably works in your favour, you just always hap (=have the fortune) to choose right. And if you are unhappy (=unlucky), you probably ran into a lot of mishaps (=misfortune, mischance) - and if it's real bad, you might be right hapless (=unfortunate). There is a similar pattern in Russian that I will not go into in detail, but there too the words for "happy things" and "lucky things" come from the same word family. I am slightly too happy to have happened upon this! It's something I obviously knew already but haven't consciously thought of before, and this is a delightful word family to have discovered - and rather large for English too! Which begs a slightly philosophical question. From the perspective of language development, at least for English, a lucky man is a happy man; but may it also be that a happy man is a lucky man?

And with that somewhat removed thought to chew on, I shall return to the business of notes and words... Thank you for all your comments and suggestions and detailed editing!!!
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Old 06-27-2021, 05:52 PM   #489
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I have been up to things.

Firstly, I finally dragged myself past those inexplicably and unexpectedly painful opening stanzas, which I will most likely redo anyways because they are an odd mishmash of styles and sound awful. I made it to Finrod, where the song sounds significantly better. ^.^ Here is.

Secondly, I am making headway on the translation, I am nearly halfway through Part 1, and made it to the first rendition of Wilwarin. I am increasingly aware though that my method of side-by-side type-on-the-right-as-I-read-on-the-left is perhaps good for quantity but not quality, and certainly not for the sentence structure. But I figured, as it will need a read-over anyways before going places, I will fix it all when I read it again a second time. I don't have the patience to go through the same chapter I just read recently (besides, this whole thing is just an unconscious excuse for another re-read, who am I kidding...).

Thirdly, I came across an Elf calling another Elf "knyaz", proving that my memory is absolutely no good. I'm still sticking to the translation scheme from before, given the ambiguity of certain titles, and because I think that Men should have their own thing going on.

And finally, when looking up some terminology, I came across a forum where they tried to translate the book into English before it was even properly published, back in 2002... I did not see a full translation, but they had a couple passages. I remember that when I was looking for this book in different online formats last summer, I came across a few scattered chapters in English, but I didn't love the translation, and besides, it was like 4 unconnected chapters. However, I can't find it now to figure out if it was the work of that forum. What I might steal from their efforts though is the title. They called it Beyond the Dawn, which echoes a certain Blind Guardian song that the author clearly knew and loved. This stuff is Internet Archaeology. It kinda baffles me that I'm picking up projects that started twenty years ago... Like, yes I was born then, but I'm not sure if I even started first grade when the Zong and the Dawn were made!


As a humorous aside, I am starting to think I should be running a list of autocorrect bloopers. Firstly, Google Docs doesn't seem to like archaic sentence structure, or archaic words in general, and keeps trying to correct it to something modern that makes no sense in context. But these are just suggestions, it doesn't do anything. But every now and again I go back a couple sentences and see that what was supposed to be "rohir" has been autocorrected to "roger", or things like that... It has no patience with Elvish.
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Old 06-29-2021, 09:19 AM   #490
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I have been up to things.
Excellent.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Firstly, I finally dragged myself past those inexplicably and unexpectedly painful opening stanzas, which I will most likely redo anyways because they are an odd mishmash of styles and sound awful. I made it to Finrod, where the song sounds significantly better. ^.^ Here is.
Hurrah! I think it sounds perfectly good. I've done a quick recording, in which Beren sounds more like Finrod and Finrod drifts towards being a Son of Feanor, but that's fine. That final 'freeeeeedooooom' broke my throat though. ^_~

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Secondly, I am making headway on the translation, I am nearly halfway through Part 1, and made it to the first rendition of Wilwarin. I am increasingly aware though that my method of side-by-side type-on-the-right-as-I-read-on-the-left is perhaps good for quantity but not quality, and certainly not for the sentence structure. But I figured, as it will need a read-over anyways before going places, I will fix it all when I read it again a second time. I don't have the patience to go through the same chapter I just read recently (besides, this whole thing is just an unconscious excuse for another re-read, who am I kidding...).
I snuck in and dropped some more comments; mostly on ties to and breaks from the canon, rather than nitpicking word-use. There was one word that threw me totally - I think it was dirgal or dirgol, and I have no idea what it's meant to be except from context.

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Thirdly, I came across an Elf calling another Elf "knyaz", proving that my memory is absolutely no good. I'm still sticking to the translation scheme from before, given the ambiguity of certain titles, and because I think that Men should have their own thing going on.
I mean... the word means "prince" in the old sense, as in "Prince of Gwynedd", "Prince of Powys", "Princes of the Noldor". The drift in the modern sense of that word leaves the concept without a precise word, so yeah, it's going to fracture the translation a bit. But that's a translator's job - remember "dissolved in the bitterness of bread" or whatever Amarie went on about?

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And finally, when looking up some terminology, I came across a forum where they tried to translate the book into English before it was even properly published, back in 2002... I did not see a full translation, but they had a couple passages. I remember that when I was looking for this book in different online formats last summer, I came across a few scattered chapters in English, but I didn't love the translation, and besides, it was like 4 unconnected chapters. However, I can't find it now to figure out if it was the work of that forum. What I might steal from their efforts though is the title. They called it Beyond the Dawn, which echoes a certain Blind Guardian song that the author clearly knew and loved. This stuff is Internet Archaeology. It kinda baffles me that I'm picking up projects that started twenty years ago... Like, yes I was born then, but I'm not sure if I even started first grade when the Zong and the Dawn were made!
Having been involved in a Silmarillion Film project that included a few people from the Downs back around '04, the Zong gives me very much the same 'picking up ancient projects' feel, believe me. ^_~ That is a cool title.

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As a humorous aside, I am starting to think I should be running a list of autocorrect bloopers. Firstly, Google Docs doesn't seem to like archaic sentence structure, or archaic words in general, and keeps trying to correct it to something modern that makes no sense in context. But these are just suggestions, it doesn't do anything. But every now and again I go back a couple sentences and see that what was supposed to be "rohir" has been autocorrected to "roger", or things like that... It has no patience with Elvish.
What, you don't remember Elroger Half-even, son of the lord of Milagros/Ravendeal?

(That's slightly unfair to autocorrect: it does know "dell", though I suspect it thinks I'm talking about computers.)

hS
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Old 06-29-2021, 04:15 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Hurrah! I think it sounds perfectly good. I've done a quick recording, in which Beren sounds more like Finrod and Finrod drifts towards being a Son of Feanor, but that's fine. That final 'freeeeeedooooom' broke my throat though. ^_~
The link doesn't work. ;( It's just the music without the lyrics.

Also, I can shift the piece a couple tones down once I'm finished if that makes it easier to sing. I don't like shifting them too far, because it distorts the instrument sounds, but small shift would be fine. It's in Dm currently, and I just really don't want to be stuck writing it in Bbm or something, so it will stick in the nice clean key for now unless you'd rather I moved it down a lot. How do you feel about it?

...Actually, why guess, when we can test experimentally. Cm / Am. How do these compare? The Am is already pushed past where the wind instruments start sounding different, so if we go that low I might have to rewrite chunks of it, but if it means it can be sung then no can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I snuck in and dropped some more comments; mostly on ties to and breaks from the canon, rather than nitpicking word-use.
I saw! Thank you for the comments, they are always a delight to read. Best notification to wake up to in the morning, when my phone tells me I have comments on my drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
There was one word that threw me totally - I think it was dirgal or dirgol, and I have no idea what it's meant to be except from context.
Neither do I! But from the context, a dirgol is supposed to be something of a Scottish plaid. It's one of those neologisms that I don't even know where to place linguistically - presumably Taliska, because no identifiable Elvish root and it's a specific cultural thing? But it has an Elvish ring to it. Who knows. I also have assumed that it's a neologism because I know of no equivalent in either Russian or English, but it may well be based on some obscure real world word in either language or a different language altogether (like weidh or deidi, just in that first chapter...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I mean... the word means "prince" in the old sense, as in "Prince of Gwynedd", "Prince of Powys", "Princes of the Noldor". The drift in the modern sense of that word leaves the concept without a precise word, so yeah, it's going to fracture the translation a bit. But that's a translator's job - remember "dissolved in the bitterness of bread" or whatever Amarie went on about?
Lol. I did not remember, and now I do again. :-D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Having been involved in a Silmarillion Film project that included a few people from the Downs back around '04, the Zong gives me very much the same 'picking up ancient projects' feel, believe me. ^_~
A Silmarillion Film?! Where did that end up and why is it not all over the Downs already? I wanna see! *excited noises*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
What, you don't remember Elroger Half-even, son of the lord of Milagros/Ravendeal?

(That's slightly unfair to autocorrect: it does know "dell", though I suspect it thinks I'm talking about computers.)
...I was actually in stitches at this. But that is entirely fair to autocorrect! It doesn't usually automatically change legit words like "dell", but it keeps highlighting them to suggest things like "deal". Well, maybe not that exactly, but it's not even super archaic words, anything that's slightly out of the ordinary sets it off. It even insists on correcting "gruDge" to "gruNge". I am not sure in what universe "grunge" is either a more common or more sensible word in that context than "grudge", but here you go. Let's go fixing what's not broken.

(To actually be fair to it though, it often catches grammar lapses when my verb tenses don't align, or when I double-type a a word :P, or have a legitimate typo. But some suggestions are ridiculous. This roger holds a grunge.)

(Also, it seems to possess some level of intelligence, as I think it gave up on highlighting Beren. :-D)

EDIT: I just had a moment. It corrected "barad" to "Barad". Hui, I swear this thing is learning! It's gonna start speaking Elvish any day now.
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Old 06-30-2021, 01:48 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
The link doesn't work. ;( It's just the music without the lyrics.
That's because I accidentally used your link. -_- Here we go - the actual me singing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Also, I can shift the piece a couple tones down once I'm finished if that makes it easier to sing. I don't like shifting them too far, because it distorts the instrument sounds, but small shift would be fine. It's in Dm currently, and I just really don't want to be stuck writing it in Bbm or something, so it will stick in the nice clean key for now unless you'd rather I moved it down a lot. How do you feel about it?
I don't think you need to shift it; I can hit the note okay, it's just a bit of a struggle to hold it. Mixture of volume, length, and not properly anticipating it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Neither do I! But from the context, a dirgol is supposed to be something of a Scottish plaid. It's one of those neologisms that I don't even know where to place linguistically - presumably Taliska, because no identifiable Elvish root and it's a specific cultural thing? But it has an Elvish ring to it. Who knows. I also have assumed that it's a neologism because I know of no equivalent in either Russian or English, but it may well be based on some obscure real world word in either language or a different language altogether (like weidh or deidi, just in that first chapter...).
It could be any one of a dozen things in Sindarin; the natural read would be dîr-coll, but that means [man/difficult]-[cloak/hollow]. It's very tempting to derive it from the English 'dirk', ie knife, but that leaves -ol, and why would they be coining cod-Middle English terms in a Russian fanfic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
A Silmarillion Film?! Where did that end up and why is it not all over the Downs already? I wanna see! *excited noises*
Sadly it ran into the usual A/V project problem: plenty of writers (we had full scripts for Fall of the Noldor and Lay of Luthien), plenty of voice-actors, and nobody who could do music or visuals.

Hilariously, the forum is still there; apparently I also started a script for War of Wrath (I keep finding scraps of paper with bits of this on it), and - sound familiar? - a translation of a foreign script for Fall of Gondolin.

... and there is actually a trace of Fall of the Noldor in the Zong. During the Oath, the swords coming in one by one is directly how I played it in the script:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FotN Scene 26
[Caranthir leaps up onto the steps beside his father, sword flickering red]

CARANTHIR: Be he elf, or orc, or demon foul of Morgoth Bauglir…

[Celegorm and Curufin leap up to join him]

CARANTHIR, CELEGORM, CURUFIN: Be he Mortal dark that in after days on Earth shall dwell…

[Amrod and Amras step up to join them]

CARANTHIR, CELEGORM, CURUFIN, AMROD, AMRAS: Shall no law, nor love, nor league of swords…

[Maedhros steps up to join them]

SONS OF FËANOR EXCEPT MAGLOR: No might, nor mercy…

[Maglor joins in from the crowd]

SONS OF FËANOR: Not moveless fate, defend him forever from the fierce vengeance of the Sons of Fëanor, whoso seize, or steal, or finding keep the fair enchanted globes of crystal whose glory dies not, the Silmarils. We have sworn forever!
(The whole thing comes hilariously close to being Leithian Script fanfic. I've just seen Edrahil's name fly past... XD)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
EDIT: I just had a moment. It corrected "barad" to "Barad". Hui, I swear this thing is learning! It's gonna start speaking Elvish any day now.
The world's first native speaker of Elvish is going to be a Google autocorrect AI. Love it.

hS
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Old 06-30-2021, 08:51 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
That's because I accidentally used your link. -_- Here we go - the actual me singing.
Hey, I think I like it! Once it's smoothed out (and notes anticipated ), it will be great! It's encouraging that the music sounds like what I intended it to be in the good places, and it's actually not so bad in the places I thought are a bit contrived.

A small shift downward is remarkably easy to do, so it's still on the table at any point in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
It could be any one of a dozen things in Sindarin; the natural read would be dîr-coll, but that means [man/difficult]-[cloak/hollow]. It's very tempting to derive it from the English 'dirk', ie knife, but that leaves -ol, and why would they be coining cod-Middle English terms in a Russian fanfic?
Because the author is mad in the most beautiful way possible and derives words from unexpected places. Like deidi that I mentioned before - look me in the eye and tell me that has nothing to do with "daddy". There's a bunch more clearly English words that have been stylized. But in this case, "difficult cloak" is not actually out of the question, if "difficult" means "intricate". So perhaps Sindarin after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Sadly it ran into the usual A/V project problem: plenty of writers (we had full scripts for Fall of the Noldor and Lay of Luthien), plenty of voice-actors, and nobody who could do music or visuals.

Hilariously, the forum is still there; apparently I also started a script for War of Wrath (I keep finding scraps of paper with bits of this on it), and - sound familiar? - a translation of a foreign script for Fall of Gondolin.
That's a whole forum just for that project!!! That is amazing! Sad that it didn't see action though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
... and there is actually a trace of Fall of the Noldor in the Zong. During the Oath, the swords coming in one by one is directly how I played it in the script:
It lives on!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The world's first native speaker of Elvish is going to be a Google autocorrect AI. Love it.
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Old 07-04-2021, 01:18 PM   #494
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Whaddaya know? Musical-Beren has a much easier time of it being distressed and dismayed than he had of being awed and humble. I present to you - the second section. I might even have to smooth it down to curb his enthusiasm, so that the peak of his despair falls later in the song.

Also, in the event that you choose to read onward, I did proofread the second chapter briefly, because reading is supposed to be enjoyable and not make you cringe at the sentence structure. The real fun begins in Chapter 3 (as does the real weirdness). So if/when you decide to go for it full swing, just bear with it until the end of the third chapter, at which point the story starts shaping up and picking up the pace. Just another fair bit of warning - if you start reading quicker than I can write, you might catch up with me somewhere half-way despite my head start (halfway through Chapter 6 now). Up to you. Just let me know, and I will do my best to proofread ahead of where you're reading.
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Old 07-12-2021, 06:24 PM   #495
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I've had a busy week last week, but made some more progress this weekend on both projects. I am hesitant to put a deadline on Appeal, because things are still a bit unpredictable, but as I only have one section to go I expect it to be sometime soon. For Dawn, I put the page number to which it's proofread in the title of the doc, and I will remove the "proofread" label once it's fully done.

But, obligatory progress reporting aside, here's something to enjoy in the meantime. Last night I was reading the Oath in verse, and it kept popping into my head as I was falling asleep in weird and garish combinations, which I put down on paper this morning. Voila:


Be he friend, or foe, or demon wild
Of Morgoth, Elf, or mortal child,
The oath goes ever on and on,
For cold be hand and heart and bone
When spring unfolds the beechen curl
To be dissolved, and backwards hurled
Where rides the Sun and Stars do dwell
With Elbereth Gilthoniel,
Last one whose realm was fair and free
When werewolves howl, and ravens flee,
And fires burn, and cauldrons bubble,
Double double toil and trouble,
From northern waste to southern hill -
So long as it ends with "Silmaril".
- HOME 1.5: The Book of Lost Minds
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Old 07-14-2021, 07:53 AM   #496
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Well I'm pretty sure that's exactly how it goes in the book, so I don't know what you're complaining about!

("So long as it ends with Silmaril". Snort. ^_^)

Meanwhile, while you've been being productive, I've just been mucking about. I remain firmly convinced that Les Mis should be retold as the Fall of Gondolin, and I've found Aredhel's signature song:

I Dreamed A Dream

There was a time when he was kind
When his voice was so soft
And his words inviting...

There was a time when love was blind
And the woods were my world
And the world was exciting...

There was a time...
... when it all went wrong.

I dreamed a dream in times gone by
Of life beyond these walls uncharted
I stood before my brother's throne
I took his leave and I departed

I wandered far through light and dark
I found him deep in forest shaded
I took his hand, he took my heart
New songs we sang, new wine we tasted!

But the werewolves come at night
With their howling soft as thunder
And they tear your hopes apart
And they turn your dreams to shame...!

A hundred summers by his side
A son I bore, and named in secret
All through his childhood must I bide...
But we were gone when autumn came.

But still he followed after me
And I dared dream that love did drive him
But he sought only for Maeglin
What bitter shaft to slay my longing!

I had a dream the world would be
Wider by far than walls of Gondolin
I dreamed his love would set me free!
My love has killed the dream I dreamed...

(This completely breaks the idea of doing it in order, since Fantine has three more songs after this. But I'm not sure there was ever any chance that "Lovely Ladies" would fit into Gondolin so perhaps it's all to the best.)

hS
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Old 07-15-2021, 07:50 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
My love has killed the dream I dreamed...
Quite literally.

Lovely Ladies - hmm... With some heavy alterations, I can sort of see it a Minions sort of song where Maeglin escalates through levels of inquisitors and torture chambers, until he gets promised a certain lovely lady. "Mule-head captives, crying up a call, Standing up or lying down or any way at all, Bash their brains out all against the wall!". But yeah, certainly not an Aredhel song. That lovely lady would smack someone upside the head for the suggestion.

But now that you've brought up Les Mis again, the image I really can't get out of my head is the Lay Sauron as Thenardier. "Welcome, dear Elf, sit yourself down, and meet the best shapeshifter in town... Master of the Vale! Master of the Isle! Master of all sorts of creatures foul and vile! Sing a saucy song, make a little stir, Feral wargs appreciate a bon-viveur..."




...Not much to say on the "productive" front. Here's 3/4 of Appeal... but I won't be able to work on it this weekend. Hopefully during the week, but it will be a 4:30am wake-up type of week so we will see. I make no promise to fetch a Silmaril.
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Old 07-20-2021, 04:46 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
But now that you've brought up Les Mis again, the image I really can't get out of my head is the Lay Sauron as Thenardier. "Welcome, dear Elf, sit yourself down, and meet the best shapeshifter in town... Master of the Vale! Master of the Isle! Master of all sorts of creatures foul and vile! Sing a saucy song, make a little stir, Feral wargs appreciate a bon-viveur..."
Quote:
[THURINGWETHIL:]
I flew down here so I could eat a prince,
But mighty Morgoth, 'ave you seen what's 'appened since...?

Master of the Isle? Isn't worth me claw!
Necromancer, sorcerer, and lifelong bore!
Cunning, cruel, and strong? So he says, but 'ere:
Took him half a decade to kill Barahir!
Gotta lotta freaks of nature, each one with a nasty smile,
Void knows 'ow I bear it, living with these werewolves on the Isle!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
...Not much to say on the "productive" front. Here's 3/4 of Appeal... but I won't be able to work on it this weekend. Hopefully during the week, but it will be a 4:30am wake-up type of week so we will see. I make no promise to fetch a Silmaril.
This sounds really good. I can't wait to hear it with the ending and Arrival in place! The music is so evocative that it may wind up being another one I have to film "live" just to do it justice.

hS
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Old 07-31-2021, 09:15 AM   #499
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Quote:
[THURINGWETHIL:]
I flew down here so I could eat a prince,
But mighty Morgoth, 'ave you seen what's 'appened since...?

Master of the Isle? Isn't worth me claw!
Necromancer, sorcerer, and lifelong bore!
Cunning, cruel, and strong? So he says, but 'ere:
Took him half a decade to kill Barahir!
Gotta lotta freaks of nature, each one with a nasty smile,
Void knows 'ow I bear it, living with these werewolves on the Isle!
That is... fabulous. That is exactly what I was looking for, and what I needed.

Fun fact: I read that post when you first made it, and it made my day. And then I forgot that I read it, and read it again sometime later, and it made another day.

Took him half a decade to kill Barahir... *snort*. Priceless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
This sounds really good. I can't wait to hear it with the ending and Arrival in place! The music is so evocative that it may wind up being another one I have to film "live" just to do it justice.
So - good thing that I made no promise to fetch a Silmaril, because I've been working 15 hour days and was on call last weekend, and not only did I not advance a single bar but I even forgot what the thing sounds like. Now, I am not on call every weekend, so I will have some time to work on it, but it's gonna be really slow going... Like, this weekend I expect to do maybe two lines, max a single 4-line stanza. I am trying to cut down the working hours too, so maybe at one point I'll catch up to my life and be able to do things for fun again on weekdays as well.
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Old 08-02-2021, 06:05 AM   #500
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That is... fabulous. That is exactly what I was looking for, and what I needed.

Fun fact: I read that post when you first made it, and it made my day. And then I forgot that I read it, and read it again sometime later, and it made another day.
^_^ The best part is that the Forces of Evil sounding like they come from East London is pure Tolkien canon: 'Sit up!' said the Orc. 'My lads are tired of lugging you about.' Now I kind of want to re-record Sauron with a thick Cockney accent and drop all my aitches...

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
So - good thing that I made no promise to fetch a Silmaril, because I've been working 15 hour days and was on call last weekend, and not only did I not advance a single bar but I even forgot what the thing sounds like. Now, I am not on call every weekend, so I will have some time to work on it, but it's gonna be really slow going... Like, this weekend I expect to do maybe two lines, max a single 4-line stanza. I am trying to cut down the working hours too, so maybe at one point I'll catch up to my life and be able to do things for fun again on weekdays as well.
We always knew it was going to take a long time. There's never a need to apologise for doing stuff other than Zonging - the Valar know I do! Also: fifteen hour days, ouch. I can't even imagine.

While I'm here... I remembered just lately that a few years back, I'd mused on whether one could make a two-person location-based performance of the Beren and Luthien story in a particular Welsh valley. As it happens, I'm going to be in that area again next week, so if I get a chance I may go see if I can find 'shooting locations' for the songs of the Zong. No actual filming, of course (though I do have relatives of a dramatic bent...), but I might be able to snap some nice photos for a hypothetical movie. ^_^

(Sadly, I think the cave that would have been Nargothrond is now gated off. Nice big cavern, would have filled it with candles for Beren and Finrod to meet... ah well.)

hS
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Old 08-02-2021, 07:17 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
^_^ The best part is that the Forces of Evil sounding like they come from East London is pure Tolkien canon: 'Sit up!' said the Orc. 'My lads are tired of lugging you about.' Now I kind of want to re-record Sauron with a thick Cockney accent and drop all my aitches...
I think we have a new aesthetic. ^.^

Quote:
[Thuringwethil, Best Eliza Doolittle voice:]

I will go to this Isle somewhere,
Carry messages everywhere,
Fly through the cold dark air -
Oh, wouldn’t it be lovely?

Lots of captives for me to eat,
Fresh warm blood and tender meat,
The wolves would rub my feet -
Oh, wouldn’t it be lovely!

[Some time later, regretfully:]

I should have flown all night, I should have flown all night,
What made me stay on base?
I should have spread my wings, and done a thousand things
To leave this dreadful place!
By the way, does Tolkien ever say what exactly happened to Thuringwethil? Did she just happen to be an unfortunate evil soul who got crushed in the fall of the tower? How did she actually die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
We always knew it was going to take a long time. There's never a need to apologise for doing stuff other than Zonging - the Valar know I do! Also: fifteen hour days, ouch. I can't even imagine.
Maybe you just had more realistic expectations for this project all along. I was the "We'll be done by Christmas" kind of person - then "We'll be done by graduation time --> We'll be done by next Christmas --> By next summer --> Maybe by the Christmas after next?...". So I feel bad every time I have to reevaluate my dwindling pace and push it back more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
While I'm here... I remembered just lately that a few years back, I'd mused on whether one could make a two-person location-based performance of the Beren and Luthien story in a particular Welsh valley. As it happens, I'm going to be in that area again next week, so if I get a chance I may go see if I can find 'shooting locations' for the songs of the Zong. No actual filming, of course (though I do have relatives of a dramatic bent...), but I might be able to snap some nice photos for a hypothetical movie. ^_^

(Sadly, I think the cave that would have been Nargothrond is now gated off. Nice big cavern, would have filled it with candles for Beren and Finrod to meet... ah well.)
That's neat! It would be nice to see these places, even if just stills. I live in a place with lots of natury places around too now, and I was actually thinking about doing a cosplay / live action thing in some distant future... But for me it's very much still purely hypothetical. Shame about the cave, but it would be nice to see the other places!
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Old 08-22-2021, 10:25 AM   #502
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Appeal - more-or-less-final.

I love the entrance part, and I love Beren's "I ask: give me men" stanza. I knew what I wanted to do with that one from the start, and the whole song was building up to that point. I think it turned out pretty good. My least favourite part is "Carefree is the life" - it still sticks out as a bit bland or at best sarcastic, when I think Beren here is feeling more genuinely betrayed than casually cynical.


Going through my files for Minions, I found: revised music, and revised minion choir, which - now I remember - was made hilariously Gollumesque because I screwed up the microphones and it was accidentally recorded through the worst one I have. I was quite bummed about it at the time but perhaps it was serendipitous, depending on how comical or Christmas Elves-like the Minions are meant to sound. I could redo them in more creepy voices if we wanna go for creepy instead of cute little Gollums.

I think I also have Aria re-singing files lying around somewhere. Gotta look through those as well at some point.

As for Les Mis remakes, I think you might enjoy this one.
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Old 08-22-2021, 06:18 PM   #503
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I think I also have Aria re-singing files lying around somewhere. Gotta look through those as well at some point.
Aha, found it! A better take than the one currently in the video, and also features the debut of Elanor's new microphone. I thought at the time that I could do an even better one, there were a few moments I wasn't happy with for this one, but my vanity will just need to suffer this one out. Would it bee too much trouble to ask you to swap the vocals in the video?
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Old 08-23-2021, 07:45 AM   #504
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By the way, does Tolkien ever say what exactly happened to Thuringwethil? Did she just happen to be an unfortunate evil soul who got crushed in the fall of the tower? How did she actually die?
As far as I know, she's never even mentioned while alive - just as a handy bat-fell.

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That's neat! It would be nice to see these places, even if just stills. I live in a place with lots of natury places around too now, and I was actually thinking about doing a cosplay / live action thing in some distant future... But for me it's very much still purely hypothetical. Shame about the cave, but it would be nice to see the other places!
Good news!



The follies of planning... originally I was going to use what I remembered as an old white bridge with a cliff-face waterfall at one end for the gates of Minas Tirith. Yeah... that bridge was replaced a decade or two back, and the 'cliff' is more of a gulley. So I moved to this spot, which used to be a bridge until they took it out. The light-and-dark feel was just perfect for the Showdown.

Sort of pondering replacing the V2 banner images in the Libretto with these once I have a full set... I don't know, though; the colour-on-black effect of V2 makes it all look very classy, and these would make it very... green.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Appeal - more-or-less-final.

I love the entrance part, and I love Beren's "I ask: give me men" stanza. I knew what I wanted to do with that one from the start, and the whole song was building up to that point. I think it turned out pretty good. My least favourite part is "Carefree is the life" - it still sticks out as a bit bland or at best sarcastic, when I think Beren here is feeling more genuinely betrayed than casually cynical.
I mean.. it's Beren mouthing off to an authority figure, this is literally his whole thing. ^_^ I think the contrast between his initial sassy comeback "Fat lot of good your ring was!" and his more heartfelt "If you'd ever /been/ in love you'd get it" works very well.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Going through my files for Minions, I found: revised music, and revised minion choir, which - now I remember - was made hilariously Gollumesque because I screwed up the microphones and it was accidentally recorded through the worst one I have. I was quite bummed about it at the time but perhaps it was serendipitous, depending on how comical or Christmas Elves-like the Minions are meant to sound. I could redo them in more creepy voices if we wanna go for creepy instead of cute little Gollums.
C'mon, cute Gollums is clearly the way to go. They're so precious!

(I'm sorry. But I'm not actually sorry.)

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Aha, found it! A better take than the one currently in the video, and also features the debut of Elanor's new microphone. I thought at the time that I could do an even better one, there were a few moments I wasn't happy with for this one, but my vanity will just need to suffer this one out. Would it bee too much trouble to ask you to swap the vocals in the video?
I'll take a look at all these files when I get a chance. Just swapping in the vocals should be pretty easy, and I think the Aria already has the new logo title card, so that should be a quick swap.

hS
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Old 08-27-2021, 07:53 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
The follies of planning... originally I was going to use what I remembered as an old white bridge with a cliff-face waterfall at one end for the gates of Minas Tirith. Yeah... that bridge was replaced a decade or two back, and the 'cliff' is more of a gulley. So I moved to this spot, which used to be a bridge until they took it out. The light-and-dark feel was just perfect for the Showdown.
There - the breath of springtime fills the air; there - the grass is dappled with the dew...

Very lovely. The contrast of a "dark island" and "bright beyond" is very fitting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Sort of pondering replacing the V2 banner images in the Libretto with these once I have a full set... I don't know, though; the colour-on-black effect of V2 makes it all look very classy, and these would make it very... green.
Your choice. I don't see anything wrong with green. And you know how I feel about Jareth-Finrod.

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Originally Posted by Hui
I mean.. it's Beren mouthing off to an authority figure, this is literally his whole thing. ^_^
Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
C'mon, cute Gollums is clearly the way to go. They're so precious!

(I'm sorry. But I'm not actually sorry.)
Nah, me neither.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I'll take a look at all these files when I get a chance. Just swapping in the vocals should be pretty easy, and I think the Aria already has the new logo title card, so that should be a quick swap.
Looking at the video, I realized you put me as "first author" in the credits - but Aria is yours.



EDIT: lectures are very important... veeeryyyy impoooortaaaant....
(But now I'm stuck because the first stanza of the chorus has different chords from the second and things just aren't lining up properly)
(Edit2: I think I figured it out, and updated the link. And I also now think that I did Captivity incorrectly, but it's a still-sounds-good incorrectly)
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Old 08-28-2021, 07:55 PM   #506
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Light and dark can both be damned, together will crazy work schedules!

...It's amazing what one can accomplish with the inertia of constant intense work when one suddenly lands in a free weekend with relatively few responsibilities. I am somewhat surprised at the amount of productivity. This song for one can no longer be said to be unfinished. ^.^

(I rather am proud of myself for catching up to the imaginary schedule, so that it might be finished sometime before I retire )

I rather enjoyed the variations-on-a-theme feel with that short repeating down-up-down drip-drop segment. And is that Luthien's theme making an appearance in the second section of the piece? You bet it is. Why? I think my best answer is - why not? It's about love, and it's not terribly obvious or out of place, it's like an easter egg for people who know the musical (because this piece of the melody doesn't formally appear until Dream).

A word of warning, this piece is much quieter relative to the other ones I've done recently. Part of that is that it's not a mini orchestra the entire time but more of a piano with wind instrument support, like Wind - it has fewer competing voices. And the other part is that the volumes I've set here are more in the mezzo range as opposed to the f to fff I had in the last few pieces. So it would probably need more volume adjusting relative to the recording to be heard. I am actually wondering if I should not make the quieter parts louder relative to the more exciting bits, because my suspicion is that they might not be heard at all beneath the voice, or if they are then the loud bits would be overwhelmingly loud. I think the best way is to test it out, and I can adjust the volume if there are issues on the first take, it's a bit hard to judge without the voice there. It's a more thoughtful and gentle song, it's supposed to be more subtle - but it should also be in the hearing range.


EDIT: I couldn't rest easy until I tried it out, even though I'm too hoarse to sing properly and can't hit the higher notes. I think it works reasonably enough that I have hope for it and don't feel the compulsion to go rebalance the volumes immediately. ^.^ It's a grand song, I am very happy that we can now sing it with music. Happy First Song to you! :-)


EDIT 2: hey, look what the cat dragged in to my youtube feed! Another Zong performance! I've only seen the Prison Duet so far, but it looks like they have a whole concert. I like this version of Prison - and they change the words a bit: in the end instead of Finrod's "of these two lamps", they have Beren commending him for his loyalty, before going into his "only the faithful can stand on the edge without fear". I like the music and the acting, and the music here is actually very simple sounding and I might use it to draft the piece. ^.^ Beren's aesthetic is also interesting - he seems to still be "medieval warrior" rather than "bandit" appearance, but a bit more on the rougher side and not the super romantic V1 style, yet not in Thug zone. I peaked at Duel of Song too - they have Sauron wearing the Silmarils. >.< The acting is superb, they do some amazing staging stuff there. Finrod is right on. I don't agree with their choices for Sauron though (and not just over the Silmarils) - I think they might have been going for the "Necromancer" aesthetic, but it ends up more like necromancee. The result is that he isn't convincing, he doesn't sound/look powerful, it doesn't sound like he actually should be winning. But yes I am biased because I am just so enamoured by the V1 Sauron, who met my vision perfectly of what the embodied Sauron would have looked like - Elf-like but slightly vampiresque, haughty, overbearing in his confidence, and giving the general sense of emanating power. Or at least Rock God, who might be awfully gleeful but still has that sense of easy power. This Sauron doesn't carry the same conviction. But all of this aside, I really enjoyed that performance! I am totally watching this tomorrow!

...Ugh, who am I kidding, I've watched it all today. It's not a whole concert, just a few clips.
Meeting - an excellent example of acting out that song without making it look the slightest bit like a rape scene *glares at V2 on which I still hold a grudge for ruining that song for me*
Appeal - I don't think this version is my favourite, but some good acting and some interesting musical choices.
Ballad to Amarie - very heartfelt, I like it. The music cut out in the middle, and the guy didn't beat an eye, he landed right on the note and the beat when it came back on - damn he's good!
Duel of Song - as I said above, I am in love with the staging here, and Finrod here is truly someone who could take on a Maia in a Song of Power. Absolutely recommend watching. Actually... is Sauron trying to mind-control Finrod's Elves?... Could very well be... It's an interesting idea, but I think it misdirects Finrod's second section to be more specific than intended (e.g. "falsehoods and illusions" now only seems in context of his bewitched friends, and not the world in general, and "strength to counter you" does in no way mean a couple extra guys with spears). This puts a very different interpretation of how and why Sauron won - almost like he did so by "convincing" the Elves of his point of view, rather than finding the crack of doubt within Finrod. Still, watch it for the acting, you will not regret it!
Captivity - okay, now Sauron just looks like he's wearing a nightgown and he's just hard to take seriously. But man do he and nearly-broken Finrod make a great acting pair when it's just them and not the Elf choir! Seriously, this cast and whoever did the staging/choreography are really good at their stuff.
Prison Duet - yup, good acting, and I am so using this to sketch out the melody.
Truth - very believable. If I'm not mistaken, the score is the same or very similar to the ...2010?... concert performance with the V1 cast members, where I also liked Truth.
A collection of fragments - a different channel but this is clearly the same performance. Featuring the Loyalty stanza of Lament, Luthien Not At Bay (another bit with some cool acting), a snatch of Dream which seems to taking place after Captivity (with the alternate lyrics that I can finally make out!*), and Showdown (where Sauron tries to zombifie Beren with some interesting results).


Overall impression? Excellent acting skills, and I think I've finally found a Finrod to rival the V1 actor - though I still think Susalev holds the gold trophy. The music is not too heavy on the rock, and the singing is pretty good. Some curious interpretations, which I don't necessarily agree with but make sense within the frame of the lyrics. I wish there was a full performance video available, I would totally watch the full thing. This show definitely gets the Best Acting and Choreography trophy, it's not even a competition.


*Let heart over duty all decide,
Let [=so what if] my path lie over an abyss!
The threads of former ties will tear,
What do I care for the weight of immortal years
When my soul belongs to you?

(And now that there is pretty much a rhyme already in there my translation reflexes are tingling)
Let heart over duty all decide,
Let my journey take me far and wide,
The threads of former ties will tear,
What good are my immortal years -
Only a burden while my heart with you abides!



Huh, and here's another neat fragment collection that was in the same batch of links - Lay of Leithian the Musical. It has what seems to be an equivalent of Doriath Duet / Tonguelashing, followed by the lovers' return, and the hunt for Carcharoth. Features mentions of Daeron and Huan! Maybe I'll jot down a translation tomorrow, it doesn't have subtitles.


...Aaaand now it is nearing 1am and this time it is entirely my own fault that I'm not getting enough sleep.
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Old 09-01-2021, 04:26 PM   #507
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Oh

my

giddy

aunt.

I am unsure whether to describe those last few posts as a flurry, tide, or torrent of stuff, but apparently I'm clear that it's some form of meteorological phenomenon. I've been kind of jumping back and forth for the last couple of days to see what I'll discover this time. (I completely missed until tonight that you'd snuck the entire Ballad to Amarie in there, for instance!) As for responding to it - it's gonna take me a while, is what I'm saying.

But I have made a start! Several starts, actually. I have videos - plural.

05 - Appeal

I've had to fudge in the Choir myself, so this isn't strictly final, but that's the only thing I expect to change. I wound up doing a full re-recording of the lyrics, because... I was in that sort of mood, I guess?

(Are we happy with just 'Appeal' here? The only alternatives I can think of wind up of a length with 'Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin', which would be a bit unwieldy.)

09 - Melian's Aria

This should be final, though in all the bustle I haven't actually rewatched to check nothing went wrong in adding the new recording.

I haven't yet looked at the files you dug up for Minions - that's one for tomorrow maybe?

I also haven't had a chance to listen to your recording of the Ballad - but that didn't stop me making my own!

06 - Ballad to Amarie (hS recording)

I love that song. ^_^ Thank you so much for bringing the English version to life! I'll get the video done... soon? I think I know how I'm doing the backdrop, and at least there's only one singer!

(Any preferences on the title? I've had it as Ballad to Amarie, Ballad of Finrod, Finrod's Ballad, and just Amarie. I think the Libretto is at Amarie (Ballad of Finrod).)

I've also discovered... okay, I'm sure at some point I discussed the ancient SilmFilm project I was involved in, and I mentioned that I'd snuck a tiny reference into the Zong? I have no idea what, and can't find me saying it... anyway, whatever that reference was, I found another: Verse 2 of the Ballad uses the phrase "time and Sea", which is cribbed from lyrics I wrote for Silm Film: That world is lost forever / Cut off by Time and Sea... yeah, I'm homaging myself at this point, what a world.

Of the new recording, I've not yet taken more than a cursory look, but I'll get it listed in the Libretto soon. It's interesting that they have Meeting, but no hint of either of Amarie's pieces - it suggests they're doing a hybrid script maybe? Or maybe they just didn't feel like recording her. (And, naturally, nothing of the elusive Doriathrin Intelligence or whatever that's called.)

hS
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Old 09-01-2021, 05:20 PM   #508
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Squeeeee!!!!

(Actually, this is the happiest I've been today or in the last few days)


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I am unsure whether to describe those last few posts as a flurry, tide, or torrent of stuff, but apparently I'm clear that it's some form of meteorological phenomenon.
It's actually sad, but that phenomenon is simply a proper weekend. :/ But as I think I've said somewhere, I expect things will not be so bad in the coming few weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
05 - Appeal

I've had to fudge in the Choir myself, so this isn't strictly final, but that's the only thing I expect to change. I wound up doing a full re-recording of the lyrics, because... I was in that sort of mood, I guess?

(Are we happy with just 'Appeal' here? The only alternatives I can think of wind up of a length with 'Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin', which would be a bit unwieldy.)
Your Beren is fantastic! If you ever do this as live action... oh, I would si love to see it. That was amazing.

The high voice part of Choir will be a long time coming, otherwise it will sound like the Elves' singing improved dramatically with a few days of torture in Sauron's dungeons. I want to make a recording of the full piece too, just for the fun of it, I've been waiting so long to sing this piece - but again, to avoid having everyone sound like Necromancee Sauron, I will do so when my voice is back.

Name - "Appeal" maybe sounds a little sharp. Maybe Beren's Appeal? Some part of my mind early on also nicknamed that song Nargothrond, or Beren In Nargothrond. A song with a thousand names and none. Just let's please not do Beren Arrives In Nargothrond And Appeals To Finrod, anything else goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
09 - Melian's Aria

This should be final, though in all the bustle I haven't actually rewatched to check nothing went wrong in adding the new recording.
Thank you for changing it. I watched it, I did not notice anything wrong. So, can I finally say it - hurray!...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I haven't yet looked at the files you dug up for Minions - that's one for tomorrow maybe?
No rush. Plenty of time ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
06 - Ballad to Amarie (hS recording)

I love that song. ^_^ Thank you so much for bringing the English version to life! I'll get the video done... soon? I think I know how I'm doing the backdrop, and at least there's only one singer!

(Any preferences on the title? I've had it as Ballad to Amarie, Ballad of Finrod, Finrod's Ballad, and just Amarie. I think the Libretto is at Amarie (Ballad of Finrod).)
Oh my... Varda's Stars. I swear I love this piece more and more the further along we get. This is so good. And it's very clearly your piece, it just all goes so well. I've listened to it three or four times just while writing this post. It's so good. And to think that my feelings for it were very lukewarm when I first watched the Zong!

How do you feel about the music? If you think that it's too tame in contrast with the surrounding stuff, I can redo it. I think this version balances well, and at least as a stand-alone I think it works nicely, but it's your song and your call. But if we change it, I would still want to save this recording as an alternative stand-alone, because it is just so good.

As for the title - I think the only one I would maybe vote against is "just Amarie". It confuses me because it makes me think of the Amarie songs. But "Ballad to Amarie" is very nice, just as the other two. I suppose "Finrod's Ballad to Amarie" combines all the options, but is it beginning to press on Of The Ballad Of Finrod To Amarie Where He [insert summary of song content]?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've also discovered... okay, I'm sure at some point I discussed the ancient SilmFilm project I was involved in, and I mentioned that I'd snuck a tiny reference into the Zong? I have no idea what, and can't find me saying it... anyway, whatever that reference was, I found another: Verse 2 of the Ballad uses the phrase "time and Sea", which is cribbed from lyrics I wrote for Silm Film: That world is lost forever / Cut off by Time and Sea... yeah, I'm homaging myself at this point, what a world.
...I cannot for the life of me remember either what the other reference was. But nothing wrong with a bit of self-homage. :P Besides, all projects and fanfics sort of serve as inspiration for the next generation of projects, so it's a rightful reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Of the new recording, I've not yet taken more than a cursory look, but I'll get it listed in the Libretto soon. It's interesting that they have Meeting, but no hint of either of Amarie's pieces - it suggests they're doing a hybrid script maybe? Or maybe they just didn't feel like recording her. (And, naturally, nothing of the elusive Doriathrin Intelligence or whatever that's called.)
I wonder if they just didn't/couldn't cast her. In all else they are working with the newer script (and even the newer-newer Dream), but they do switch around the order of some songs. But these are only snatches of the concert, and I honestly have no idea if they've ever cast Amarie - or, as you say, either of the Doriath sovereigns.
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Old 09-02-2021, 04:48 AM   #509
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Looking now at the 2021 performance... it's very lovely! I'm kind of tempted to splice the beginning of Meeting onto the better copy in the clip video, just to get a "viewer's edition". From the shot of the Lament, I think they have Thingol and Melian, but not Amarie...

... and I've just found their website, which confirms. There's a gorgeous shot of Melian-as-Yavanna down there, though I think they might have a different Luthien? Anyway, they're still performing - they're selling tickets for the 5th September - so we might see more videos floating up.

They're also on VK, which confirms that the cast are being shuffled around a bit. This VK page seems to cover earlier versions? I don't know, it keeps running me into the cheery "why not sign up?" page, and I dun wanna.

I've put the 2021s into the Libretto, though I haven't yet inserted them into each song's header. I've also put a Welsh banner image for the Lament, as well as a rejigged version of the Showdown one; I'll keep working on those when I get the time & inspiration.

EDIT: Yeah, okay, so now the 2021 concert is in place in every relevant song, and I'm up to about five Wales/lyrics header pictures on the Libretto. I got carried away.

I've said for a while that I want to redo the pictures for the Minions... do you think the white masks used by the fallen Elves and Sauron in the 2021 would work? It would avoid me having to draw 'evil faces' (other than Sauron's, of course).

hS
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Old 09-03-2021, 01:49 PM   #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
... and I've just found their website, which confirms. There's a gorgeous shot of Melian-as-Yavanna down there, though I think they might have a different Luthien? Anyway, they're still performing - they're selling tickets for the 5th September - so we might see more videos floating up.

They're also on VK, which confirms that the cast are being shuffled around a bit. This VK page seems to cover earlier versions? I don't know, it keeps running me into the cheery "why not sign up?" page, and I dun wanna.
I looked through the sites, and got a little caught up in the actor drama. Long story of it short, apparently Sauron here is played by Seraphim (ie V2 Finrod), and Finrod specifically on the Sept 5th performance will be played by Roman Susalyov (V1 Finrod), and for some reason this amused me to no end when I first read it. The theatre group is Eterius, same as V2, but the cast I think is pretty different. I didn't look through the whole list of names though to see who else except for Finrod might be an old timer. But my do I wish I could be a fly on the wall of that theatre hall this Sunday!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT: Yeah, okay, so now the 2021 concert is in place in every relevant song, and I'm up to about five Wales/lyrics header pictures on the Libretto. I got carried away.
They look absolutely lovely! And they all have a very different "personality", it doesn't look monochrome green at all. It was a great idea. ^.^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I've said for a while that I want to redo the pictures for the Minions... do you think the white masks used by the fallen Elves and Sauron in the 2021 would work? It would avoid me having to draw 'evil faces' (other than Sauron's, of course).
Faceless Gorgols? I don't suppose why not. I think most productions go for the faceless creepy type too - whether it be dark masks or cowweb patterns on the faces or the scarecrows of 2002. Minions of unspecified variety, so to speak.


Meanwhile, I got a bit distracted... All I have to offer on the Zong front after that torrent of stuff is a sketch for Dream. It's in a good range for me, and I could go up or down a few tones without issue once I can actually sing. Tone test for you?
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Old 09-03-2021, 04:11 PM   #511
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Song titles: I've got them in the Libretto as "Nargothrond" and "Ballad to Amarie" right now, which seem the least clumsy. (I believe the latter was originally just "Amarie" - when she didn't have any songs of her own!)

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I wonder if they just didn't/couldn't cast her. In all else they are working with the newer script (and even the newer-newer Dream), but they do switch around the order of some songs. But these are only snatches of the concert, and I honestly have no idea if they've ever cast Amarie - or, as you say, either of the Doriath sovereigns.
Re: song order - it occurs to me that putting Dream after Captivity actually brings it closer to the books!

'Nay, Lúthien my child, I fear
he lives indeed in bondage drear.
The Lord of Wolves hath prisons dark,
chains and enchantments cruel and stark,
there trapped and bound and languishing
now Beren dreams that thou dost sing.'


(Lay of Leithian, Canto VI, which I've only just noticed is a total sequence-break, because we haven't even seen Beren reach Nargothrond yet!)

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I looked through the sites, and got a little caught up in the actor drama. Long story of it short, apparently Sauron here is played by Seraphim (ie V2 Finrod), and Finrod specifically on the Sept 5th performance will be played by Roman Susalyov (V1 Finrod), and for some reason this amused me to no end when I first read it. The theatre group is Eterius, same as V2, but the cast I think is pretty different. I didn't look through the whole list of names though to see who else except for Finrod might be an old timer. But my do I wish I could be a fly on the wall of that theatre hall this Sunday!
Wait, what? Sauron is Seraphim? :O Cripes, that's a genre jump! They have an audio file from Maxim Rakovsky singing Finrod at - sigh - "Glastonberry" back in March, so he's probably the one on the videos; I feel like I slightly recognise the name? But I'm not sure of that.

It's weird to me that almost every performance of the play drops one or more of the female roles. There's already fewer of them than the male roles; is there just a major shortage of women in Russian musical theatre?

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They look absolutely lovely! And they all have a very different "personality", it doesn't look monochrome green at all. It was a great idea. ^.^
What I forgot was that my phone tends to wash out photos, so all of these have their saturation upped. It really has made all the difference. What am I, about halfway through? Summat like that.

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Meanwhile, I got a bit distracted...
This, I need to revisit when I have my microphone handy.

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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
All I have to offer on the Zong front after that torrent of stuff is a sketch for Dream. It's in a good range for me, and I could go up or down a few tones without issue once I can actually sing. Tone test for you?
It seems good to me. I got a bit lost towards the end, but I think I just wasn't paying attention. Possibly because I was focussed on:

06 - Ballad to Amarie - The Video

I actually really loved the simplicity of Finrod here - he basically just sits there in full colour the entire song. It let me focus on the rest of the scene more than I would otherwise. I also appreciated the structure of the song - every set of four lines is exactly the same length! I could move things around with no trouble at all to get it all sorted.

So now we have a run of nine. ^_^ I was going to put up the spliced-together video - it comes to 42 minutes! - but, like, you've already sketched most of Dream; at this point I might as well wait and do the whole of Act I!

On which note: while I would love to do a duet with Celebestel, there's no evidence that the "Heart Duet" has ever existed; it's probably sensible just to make it a solo at this point. If they ever sing it as a duet we can revisit.

hS
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Old 09-04-2021, 09:21 PM   #512
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Going out of order here, but this needs to be said first - Ballad is so good. I keep saying it, and I keep not really expecting it to get even better, and every step keeps raising the song to new heights. I was blown by the visuals. It's seriously good.

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Re: song order - it occurs to me that putting Dream after Captivity actually brings it closer to the books!

'Nay, Lúthien my child, I fear
he lives indeed in bondage drear.
The Lord of Wolves hath prisons dark,
chains and enchantments cruel and stark,
there trapped and bound and languishing
now Beren dreams that thou dost sing.'


(Lay of Leithian, Canto VI, which I've only just noticed is a total sequence-break, because we haven't even seen Beren reach Nargothrond yet!)
Dream timing is weird. Because ^that. But Luthien's part sounds like she is leaving Doriath (love is leading me to you...), which must place it before she meets CelnCur. But Beren's part is very much a nod to Farewell Sweet Earth, which is not even in the same timezone. So... go figure?

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Originally Posted by Hui
Wait, what? Sauron is Seraphim? :O Cripes, that's a genre jump!
Yup, about sums up my reaction!

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Originally Posted by Hui
They have an audio file from Maxim Rakovsky singing Finrod at - sigh - "Glastonberry" back in March, so he's probably the one on the videos; I feel like I slightly recognise the name? But I'm not sure of that.
Yes, I believe it's him in the videos, and the name sounds vaguely familiar to me too, but I can't place it without digging back through all the links. The other Finrod name I recall is Pavel SomethingIForget, who I think is the really tall guy in some of the outdoors concerts... I'm not good at names.

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Originally Posted by Hui
It's weird to me that almost every performance of the play drops one or more of the female roles. There's already fewer of them than the male roles; is there just a major shortage of women in Russian musical theatre?
You know, that's a great question. I feel like generally in "theatre", or at least "Russian Tolkien theatre", there are more females - there is a tendency to have more female "extras", and in other stuff too females often take over male parts (e.g. the Remmirath performers are mostly female, and even the films in the first post of this thread - a good chunk of LOTR characters are female actors). I do wonder at the logistics that keep out female solo singers out of the Zong.

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This, I need to revisit when I have my microphone handy.
It's been brewing for a while, when I had the thought that surely there must be other Silm scenes out there that would lend themselves well to this genre, and the Maedhros rescue scene was one of the first examples I came up with. But it only got spat out in words this past week, and then it was stuck in my head at work so I had to make the music for it to get it out of my system. I'm at the Eagle part now, so most of the wah through, but this bit actually requires effort and creativity and inspiration to make a believable eagle. But still, won't be too long. And then back to Zonging.

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Originally Posted by Hui
I actually really loved the simplicity of Finrod here - he basically just sits there in full colour the entire song. It let me focus on the rest of the scene more than I would otherwise. I also appreciated the structure of the song - every set of four lines is exactly the same length! I could move things around with no trouble at all to get it all sorted.
And it came out absolutely beautifully! Seriously though, after this piece, I think that simple repetitive songs are underappreciated.

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Originally Posted by Hui
So now we have a run of nine. ^_^ I was going to put up the spliced-together video - it comes to 42 minutes! - but, like, you've already sketched most of Dream; at this point I might as well wait and do the whole of Act I!
42 minutes! Yikes! That is quite a bit longer than tbe previous performances. O.o V1 is just over an hour in total. V2 is about 1.5h, so 42 minutes would be just around the right timing if it was the whole of Act 1. So the first half would actually be more like an hour. Geez. How did we get it so long? It cannot be the intros, because as long as I make them, they are actually still shorter than the real performances. Do we just tend to slow the songs down more? Probably. Actually, yeah. We do tend to sing slower on average, I think. But - 42 minutes. Whoa.

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Originally Posted by Hui
On which note: while I would love to do a duet with Celebestel, there's no evidence that the "Heart Duet" has ever existed; it's probably sensible just to make it a solo at this point. If they ever sing it as a duet we can revisit.
I feel like I am of two minds about this. On one hand, as I told you before, I anticipate this will be a challenging piece musically, and it would probably be easier to write for solo than for a duet. However, I would also love to see you guys duet, and the lack of previous attempts is not in my mind an absolute contraindication for attempts on our side. Maybe we can start by aiming at the simpler goal of solo, and see if it works as a duet afterwards? Anyway, as a friend of mine says, let's burn that bridge when we get to it.
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Old 09-08-2021, 08:36 PM   #513
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Of Fingon and Maedhros

It's out of the system. Edited, musiced, and even videoed. Maedhros and Fingon are alive.

I couldn't resist looking up what artwork people made for that scene. There are some really nice pictures out there, so then obviously I had to make a video, and therefore re-download Movie Maker (which I've last used back in like grade 5 to make stupid videos using Paint with the rest of my class during Computers and Technology class). Of note, apparently the new version doesn't allow you to save progress on the project unless you pay, and you lose all your work after you export the video. It also refused to animate some of the pictures for no explicable reason. Anyway, I found some very nice artwork, but also unwittingly discovered this whole genre of F+M romantic fanfic art, which I had no desire of seeing ever. Lesson: mind where you tread on the internet.

So now that I've dedicated the last two free-ish days entirely to this and exhausted myself trying to work the tech, it's now officially out of my system, and I am back to Zonging in peace. Actually, this singing was not too bad, I think my voice is nearly back. That might mean Elf Choir soon (next week?).
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Old 09-09-2021, 06:59 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
It's out of the system. Edited, musiced, and even videoed. Maedhros and Fingon are alive.

I couldn't resist looking up what artwork people made for that scene. There are some really nice pictures out there, so then obviously I had to make a video, and therefore re-download Movie Maker (which I've last used back in like grade 5 to make stupid videos using Paint with the rest of my class during Computers and Technology class). Of note, apparently the new version doesn't allow you to save progress on the project unless you pay, and you lose all your work after you export the video. It also refused to animate some of the pictures for no explicable reason. Anyway, I found some very nice artwork, but also unwittingly discovered this whole genre of F+M romantic fanfic art, which I had no desire of seeing ever. Lesson: mind where you tread on the internet.

So now that I've dedicated the last two free-ish days entirely to this and exhausted myself trying to work the tech, it's now officially out of my system, and I am back to Zonging in peace. Actually, this singing was not too bad, I think my voice is nearly back. That might mean Elf Choir soon (next week?).
That's lovely! I really liked the invocation of the burning at Losgar, which I hadn't caught in the written lyrics; also the two Tolkien lines, "O King" and "Above all shadows". (My own headcanon is that "In western lands beneath the sun" is in fact the song sung by Fingon and Maedhros; it doesn't make the blindest bit of sense, since even in the Round World setting there was definitely no sun in Valinor in their childhood, but it pleases me. ^_^)

The plea to Manwe done this way got me thinking about how the pair would have seen the intervention: the first indication either of them had had that the Valar hadn't entirely forsaken them. (Er... other than Anar, of course!) It makes me wonder whether they would have kept it as a private miracle, or spread it about to give their people hope.

Movie Maker is... yeah. I wound up downloading a version from about 2008 to get it to work right for the Zong (before I switched to whatever I'm using now). Ummm... Wikipedia claims that the "paid version" is actually a scam, though the only scam elements are 1) asking you to pay and 2) making it hard to install the 2016 version of the software, which kind of sucked anyway.

hS
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Old 09-09-2021, 07:37 PM   #515
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That's lovely! I really liked the invocation of the burning at Losgar, which I hadn't caught in the written lyrics; also the two Tolkien lines, "O King" and "Above all shadows".
^.^ The whole thing was a little bit of a "how many direct references to the like 3 paragraphs of text describing this story can I fit into the lyrics", but of course those two lines were the raison d'etre for the whole thing. Some of the others got warped to fit into the rhythm, and the reason O King fits perfectly is that it was the first line written. Above All Shadows though is just a lucky coincidence.

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Originally Posted by Hui
(My own headcanon is that "In western lands beneath the sun" is in fact the song sung by Fingon and Maedhros; it doesn't make the blindest bit of sense, since even in the Round World setting there was definitely no sun in Valinor in their childhood, but it pleases me. ^_^)
There is definitely a parallel there - call it Tolkien reusing Sil ideas for TA stuff, or Sam somehow divining the spirit of this same thing that happened two Ages ago, or that the only logical thing to do (apparently) when you're lost while looking for a friend deep in enemy territory is to sing as loud as possible. But the two stories got cemented in my head as versions of the same "Platonic form" after this riddle. It's the same event with a TA hobbit and a FA Elf take on it.

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Originally Posted by Hui
The plea to Manwe done this way got me thinking about how the pair would have seen the intervention: the first indication either of them had had that the Valar hadn't entirely forsaken them. (Er... other than Anar, of course!) It makes me wonder whether they would have kept it as a private miracle, or spread it about to give their people hope.
That... is a very good question. My first instinct was to say that surely the secret must have leaked out somehow, because it's gotta be a known fact, and neither bloke survives the FA to pass on the tale to the future generations. But then I thought that what is written in The Sil is not necessarily "common knowledge", neither of the FA nor of future Ages. And even if it is the legends that descended down from the ancient times, how much of it is true versus how much was added on to fill in gaps or for special effects? Maybe there was no Eagle at all and some inspired bard just decided this would make the tale more interesting. What I dread most of all is that this train of thought is about to derail straight into the dark pit that has "canonicity" spelled in big letters over it, and that is not where I want to go.

But for an in-story and in-character answer, I almost wanna say that they would not reveal the entire story right away. I feel like the pair of them coming back and bragging that Manwe sent them an Eagle would actually not give people hope, but false expectation or confusion, like the Valar are inconsistent parents who can't decide how they want to punish the kids. Or, as a better equivalent, it would create a little murmur of discontent along the lines of "Why didn't they send the Eagles to Mord... erm, Angband to help us with finishing the job". I think that the line of "you are punished and on your own but we still love you and you are never truly entirely on your own" is a very fine one to tread, and the message can get garbled in the telling. I think what might be the more likely retelling is a vague but very firm "Manwe answered our prayers... and so we're here". And perhaps over time more of the story came out. Perhaps Fingon recounts it after Thorondor brings back Fingolfin's body. Or perhaps Maedhros recounts it after Fingon's death. This is totally unfounded on any textual evidence, this is all headcanon.

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Originally Posted by Hui
Movie Maker is... yeah. I wound up downloading a version from about 2008 to get it to work right for the Zong (before I switched to whatever I'm using now). Ummm... Wikipedia claims that the "paid version" is actually a scam, though the only scam elements are 1) asking you to pay and 2) making it hard to install the 2016 version of the software, which kind of sucked anyway.
Huh. Perhaps the word "tampered" would have deterred me from downloading it, but it was from Windows store app thing and not from the internet browser, so maybe my computer's safe? If I also read up on this before doing it, I would have noticed that the intro paragraph offers an alternative product that my computer should already have installed. :/ I don't do tech very well, as I'm sure you've figured out by now...


As an aside, is it a bad thing that I've been searching Youtube periodically this week to see if any new clips came up after Sunday's performance? (They haven't, none that I've found)
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Old 09-13-2021, 12:06 PM   #516
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So I wrote an intro for Dream (with only a little help from Les Mis ), but now I wonder if I should not instead use this intro for Showdown and make Dream a little more slow and, hmm, dreamy. Thoughts?

I think I only realized now how much parallel there will be between the two songs, and how man different variations we can go with for each, especially at the end. For instance, some versions include a musical interlude before the final stanza, and some don't. Do we want to put in a stanza of music into both pieces, or just one, and which one if so - or maybe neither? Then, Beren and Luthien sometimes sing together, or sometimes Beren starts off and Luthien echoes (e.g. "let winds rage") before catching up with him on the 2nd or 3rd line.

Also, that line of Luthien's - "I will fight for that which always will be mine" - I still don't like it. It felt wrong in the past tense, it still feels wrong in the future tense. I don't know if it's the tense that is the wrong thing or something else, but it just sounds weird. Maybe in the present though it would sound less awkward, or at least raise fewer eyebrows. "I will fight to [synonym for defend? keep? restore?] that which is mine"? ...shield from harm? That sounds a bit too much like she's talking about Beren himself, whereas I think she's talking more about her love.
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Old 09-13-2021, 02:50 PM   #517
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What I dread most of all is that this train of thought is about to derail straight into the dark pit that has "canonicity" spelled in big letters over it, and that is not where I want to go.

[...]Perhaps Fingon recounts it after Thorondor brings back Fingolfin's body. Or perhaps Maedhros recounts it after Fingon's death. This is totally unfounded on any textual evidence, this is all headcanon.
The good thing about this question is that the canon is "it happened, and then nothing more is written". It all has to be headcanon, fanon, or theorising, because... there's no text. Just what we think the characters would be most likely to do.

I have to think it was on their minds when they planned what became the Nirnaeth, though. "Manwe's eagles helped us at the gates of Angband - Manwe's eagles helped Beren and Luthien escape with a Silmaril - what if he'll help us out again if we make a proper go of it?" And in the event... no. No eagles, not to any of the people who'd previously been aided by them (Maedhros, Fingon, Hurin, and Huor were all at the battle!).

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As an aside, is it a bad thing that I've been searching Youtube periodically this week to see if any new clips came up after Sunday's performance? (They haven't, none that I've found)
A'course it's not! We must have every recording indexed, or else what's the point of us?

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So I wrote an intro for Dream (with only a little help from Les Mis ), but now I wonder if I should not instead use this intro for Showdown and make Dream a little more slow and, hmm, dreamy. Thoughts?
I agree. It's a lovely intro, but not for this song. We're coming off the back of a slam-cut to black at the end of Aria, and into the very gentle camp trio. Checking V1, Finrod even drops his reprise of "Oath" into a melancholy tone, and that's probably the highest-energy part of the trio. (In many ways, the three songs together serve as a sort of Enteract: Act 1 is the Kingdoms of Light, Act 2 is the Kingdoms of Dark - Tol-in-Gaurhoth and Fallen Nargothrond - and these three are the breathing space between.) So yeah - pocket it for Showdown, and try for something gentler for Dream if you can.

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I think I only realized now how much parallel there will be between the two songs, and how man different variations we can go with for each, especially at the end. For instance, some versions include a musical interlude before the final stanza, and some don't. Do we want to put in a stanza of music into both pieces, or just one, and which one if so - or maybe neither? Then, Beren and Luthien sometimes sing together, or sometimes Beren starts off and Luthien echoes (e.g. "let winds rage") before catching up with him on the 2nd or 3rd line.
I guess in a sense, Dream is a literal prophecy of Showdown. I mean, it's a dream - that's how you get information about the future, right enough.

I'm happy to let you figure out what sounds best in terms of extra stanzas and duets. I think we've got them both listed as a full duet on the last stanza, but that's just because V2 did it that way. ^_^

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Also, that line of Luthien's - "I will fight for that which always will be mine" - I still don't like it. It felt wrong in the past tense, it still feels wrong in the future tense. I don't know if it's the tense that is the wrong thing or something else, but it just sounds weird. Maybe in the present though it would sound less awkward, or at least raise fewer eyebrows. "I will fight to [synonym for defend? keep? restore?] that which is mine"? ...shield from harm? That sounds a bit too much like she's talking about Beren himself, whereas I think she's talking more about her love.
Soooo. How many times does she use that line?

Dream: "And I will fight for that which always will be mine!"
Showdown: "I command you: give me back that which is mine!"
Showdown again: "And I will take what is and always has been mine!"
V1 Sons of Feanor: "And I will follow love to seek for what is mine!"
V1 Sons again: "And I will fight for that which always has been mine!"

... can we just steal that "follow love" version? She does literally say "love is leading me", so it makes logical sense. Or if we don't want the love:

And I will seek what is and always has been mine!

Google thinks the Russian is "And I will win back what belongs to me." So maybe we do need 'fight'. I think you're right to sneak in another verb.

And I will fight to hold once more [/again] that which is mine!

Or even claim once more (take once more?); in Showdown she uses a very possessive "give me back", so this isn't out of place.

On the graphic front: these three songs are going to use a single arch foreground over three different forest backdrops. I have the arches, and two of the forests are Doriath and Aman; I just need to draw a nighttime forest for Camp itself.

hS
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Old 09-14-2021, 08:41 AM   #518
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Been a while since I've drawn a complete picture for this, but I've just finished the woodland backdrop for Camp. I looked at the map, and decided that Stuff It, it's going to be Brethil, because silver birch is a fun tree.



It'll be behind a broken set of movie!Rivendell style arches, and I'll be fading between this, Doriath, and Aman as appropriate over the three Enteract songs.

EDIT: So I was thinking about how Dream fits into the show, and I realised that the V2 staging has tricked me into thinking it's a Beren song. It's not! It's Luthien's, and it's a direct response to the Aria. Thingol stealing the mic is an analogue of him imprisoning Luthien up in a tree (and I believe Melian wasn't keen on that, either!); Dream stands in the place of her escape.

To do that, it blends in her vision of Beren in Tol Sirion, pulling it forward in her timeline and backwards in his. In fact I don't think Luthien has a vision here: it's all Beren's. "Still Beren dreams that thou dost sing", as Melian said in the Lay, and though the context is different it's still the case.

The upshot of all this is: Dream will open with Luthien alone in Doriath. Beren and his arches will only fade in later, because I don't have to worry about moving him onto a real stage.

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Old 09-17-2021, 07:45 PM   #519
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I have to think it was on their minds when they planned what became the Nirnaeth, though. "Manwe's eagles helped us at the gates of Angband - Manwe's eagles helped Beren and Luthien escape with a Silmaril - what if he'll help us out again if we make a proper go of it?" And in the event... no. No eagles, not to any of the people who'd previously been aided by them (Maedhros, Fingon, Hurin, and Huor were all at the battle!).
OMG. I have never realized this before. This is... mindtwisting. And it makes the disappointment of the Nirnaeth so much more personal for Maedhros. I wonder if that's what pushes him over the edge to the point where he allows himself to be convinced by his jerk of a brother to proceed with the Second Kinslaying - or even what lays the seeds of bitterness and mistrust that prompts him to reject Eonwe's summons and attempt to steal the Silmarils after they are recovered? "I thought that perhaps you were not so coldhearted, and would help us in a righteous cause, I thought you sent us a sign that we should have hope - but that was so false hope and wishful thinking..." Oh. My. God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
I agree. It's a lovely intro, but not for this song. We're coming off the back of a slam-cut to black at the end of Aria, and into the very gentle camp trio. Checking V1, Finrod even drops his reprise of "Oath" into a melancholy tone, and that's probably the highest-energy part of the trio. (In many ways, the three songs together serve as a sort of Enteract: Act 1 is the Kingdoms of Light, Act 2 is the Kingdoms of Dark - Tol-in-Gaurhoth and Fallen Nargothrond - and these three are the breathing space between.) So yeah - pocket it for Showdown, and try for something gentler for Dream if you can.
Yeah, exactly. I like the intro and I think will keep it for Showdown, but here is a more languidly dreamy one for Dream. Yea or nay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
Soooo. How many times does she use that line?
...A lot. O.o

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
... can we just steal that "follow love" version? She does literally say "love is leading me", so it makes logical sense. Or if we don't want the love:

And I will seek what is and always has been mine!

Google thinks the Russian is "And I will win back what belongs to me." So maybe we do need 'fight'. I think you're right to sneak in another verb.

And I will fight to hold once more [/again] that which is mine!

Or even claim once more (take once more?); in Showdown she uses a very possessive "give me back", so this isn't out of place.
In Russian it's "win back", but even... "win back in battle/fight". "War back"? I suppose the idea is that this is her taking a stance - against Thingol and the rest of the world if need be. I actually don't like the Russian word, I think it's too aggressive for Luthien. After all, Beren is the warrior here, she's the enchantress. But the English "fight" is perfect - it's just vague enough that she still asserts that she is taking this into her hands and preparing to take on whatever challenges arise, and it still foreshadows her more literal fights with Sauron and Morgoth, but without the militaristic feel.

So, saying that... I think my favourite is "I will fight to hold/claim once more that which is mine!".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Been a while since I've drawn a complete picture for this, but I've just finished the woodland backdrop for Camp. I looked at the map, and decided that Stuff It, it's going to be Brethil, because silver birch is a fun tree.
I love the birch trees! Brethil or no, they are wonderful! (But good to know that we are actually still very much in canonical land. )

...And I totally missed when you posted the edit, and only saw them now, and -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
EDIT: So I was thinking about how Dream fits into the show, and I realised that the V2 staging has tricked me into thinking it's a Beren song. It's not! It's Luthien's, and it's a direct response to the Aria. Thingol stealing the mic is an analogue of him imprisoning Luthien up in a tree (and I believe Melian wasn't keen on that, either!); Dream stands in the place of her escape.

To do that, it blends in her vision of Beren in Tol Sirion, pulling it forward in her timeline and backwards in his. In fact I don't think Luthien has a vision here: it's all Beren's. "Still Beren dreams that thou dost sing", as Melian said in the Lay, and though the context is different it's still the case.
I think it's a BOTH song, to be fair. The set up is Beren dreaming about Luthien, but her part is indeed her leaving Doriath as a direct response (foreseeable conequence?) to the two previous pieces. "And she will follow only him" - as, indeed, she does. But then Beren starts singing and it's like he's glimpsing Luthien far away in a dream, without realizing what she's singing, only knowing that she is there, because he thinks that he's seeing a vision of her from the past, from before Thingol caught word of them ("that night when in your love I rejoiced"). I agree, it didn't sound to me like Luthien really has a vision in this song, but if we wanted to make it about dreams on both sides it wouldn't be wrong to link it to her dreaming that Beren is (will be?) in trouble. The Zong timeline seems to be a little different from the Sil/Lay timeline, I suppose to make the songs flow and integrate better. Or, can it still be stretched, as you say, as pushing one dream forward and one backward in time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hui
The upshot of all this is: Dream will open with Luthien alone in Doriath. Beren and his arches will only fade in later, because I don't have to worry about moving him onto a real stage.
Ah, the beauty of online musicalling! ^.^
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:25 AM   #520
Huinesoron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
OMG. I have never realized this before. This is... mindtwisting. And it makes the disappointment of the Nirnaeth so much more personal for Maedhros. I wonder if that's what pushes him over the edge to the point where he allows himself to be convinced by his jerk of a brother to proceed with the Second Kinslaying - or even what lays the seeds of bitterness and mistrust that prompts him to reject Eonwe's summons and attempt to steal the Silmarils after they are recovered? "I thought that perhaps you were not so coldhearted, and would help us in a righteous cause, I thought you sent us a sign that we should have hope - but that was so false hope and wishful thinking..." Oh. My. God.
It's almost as though Tolkien actually thought his characters' motivations through...!

(No, actually that is surprising, for the Silm; the number of times he rejigged random bits of the story gives very much the opposite impression.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
Yeah, exactly. I like the intro and I think will keep it for Showdown, but here is a more languidly dreamy one for Dream. Yea or nay?
Yep, that's lovely.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
So, saying that... I think my favourite is "I will fight to hold/claim once more that which is mine!".
Well, you're singing it! That's the one I landed on, too, with a slight preference towards "claim".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I love the birch trees! Brethil or no, they are wonderful! (But good to know that we are actually still very much in canonical land. )
The beauty of Middle-earth is that Tolkien created such a broad and deep setting that you can always wriggle anything into being canonical. I could've gone field, hills, river or swamp and still found somewhere to fit it. (Possibly even better than Brethil would have been Tasarinan with the willows, but eh, I like birch.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galadriel55 View Post
I think it's a BOTH song, to be fair. The set up is Beren dreaming about Luthien, but her part is indeed her leaving Doriath as a direct response (foreseeable conequence?) to the two previous pieces. "And she will follow only him" - as, indeed, she does. But then Beren starts singing and it's like he's glimpsing Luthien far away in a dream, without realizing what she's singing, only knowing that she is there, because he thinks that he's seeing a vision of her from the past, from before Thingol caught word of them ("that night when in your love I rejoiced"). I agree, it didn't sound to me like Luthien really has a vision in this song, but if we wanted to make it about dreams on both sides it wouldn't be wrong to link it to her dreaming that Beren is (will be?) in trouble. The Zong timeline seems to be a little different from the Sil/Lay timeline, I suppose to make the songs flow and integrate better. Or, can it still be stretched, as you say, as pushing one dream forward and one backward in time?
Yeah, that sounds about right. It might be interesting to compare the Zong timeline to the Lost Tales version, and see if it matches up a bit better.

(Utterly unrelated: good grief, I've just discovered the 3-volume edition of HoME, which sounds frankly terrifying!)

hS
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