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Old 09-06-2021, 03:47 AM   #41
Huinesoron
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Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
also, that Ingwe was Imin's great-grandson.
Someone's going to have to try and figure out the order of the generational schemes and timelines, if we want to know Tolkien's final position. I think they're all listed as 'ca. 1959'.

Tolkien gives 14 detailed timelines/generation schemes around Cuivienen:

- One in The March of the Quendi (ca. 1959)
- Three in Key Dates (early 1959)
- Two in Calculation of the Increase of the Quendi (ca. 1959)
- One in A Generational Scheme (mid 1959)
- Seven(!) in Generational Schemes (summer 1959)

CH indicates a connection between the final scheme in Key Dates and the first one in Calculation..., and the phrasing of The March... suggests it comes pretty early, so it looks like the Generational Schemes are Tolkien's final thoughts. In which case Ingwe is the 24th generation from Imin!

EDIT: One that sneaks under the radar because the pieces are in the wrong order... per The Numenorean Catastrophe..., Valinor "should remain a physical landmass (America!)... it would just become an ordinary land...". Which means that, per The Making of Lembas, lembas is (unleavened) cornbread!

hS
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Old 09-06-2021, 07:55 AM   #42
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Nah, wheat (explicitly). Don't be fooled by UK usage "corn" = "any grain"

I can testify that ca. 1969 Britons simply didn't eat maize/sweet corn - except those who had lived among Americans.
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Old 09-06-2021, 08:40 AM   #43
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Nah, wheat (explicitly). Don't be fooled by UK usage "corn" = "any grain"

I can testify that ca. 1969 Britons simply didn't eat maize/sweet corn - except those who had lived among Americans.
Disagree. Not on the second, but the first. Tolkien specifically refers to it (3:IV, Text 2) as "Western Corn", and the text comes well after the apparent decision regarding the 'end of "physical" Aman' in 3:XV. We'd need to demonstrate that the idea in 3:XV was actually rejected to make the maize idea untenable.

We know that this idea of non-native species needing to be introduced was one Tolkien considered - a very similar situation arises with rabbits and chickens in 3:XIII (Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor), and CH highlights that this is because they were not present in NW Europe at that time. The way 3:IV ([i]Lembas[i]) both introduces and removes "Western Corn" looks like a very strong case to me.

The explicit use of "wheat-corn" comes from a hastily hand-written note, and is immediately after an unclear word. It's entirely possible this actually reads "sweet-corn" in the original!

hS
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Old 09-06-2021, 11:53 AM   #44
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Disagree. Not on the second, but the first. Tolkien specifically refers to it (3:IV, Text 2) as "Western Corn", and the text comes well after the apparent decision regarding the 'end of "physical" Aman' in 3:XV. We'd need to demonstrate that the idea in 3:XV was actually rejected to make the maize idea untenable.

We know that this idea of non-native species needing to be introduced was one Tolkien considered - a very similar situation arises with rabbits and chickens in 3:XIII (Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor), and CH highlights that this is because they were not present in NW Europe at that time. The way 3:IV ([i]Lembas[i]) both introduces and removes "Western Corn" looks like a very strong case to me.

The explicit use of "wheat-corn" comes from a hastily hand-written note, and is immediately after an unclear word. It's entirely possible this actually reads "sweet-corn" in the original!

hS
While the essay "On Lembas" in HME XII is earlier than these, sometime in the 1950s, (I am inclined to later rather than earlier, with or after the later part of the Narn), nothing in it contradicts these new writings, including the use of "corn" and the fact that it was brought from the West by a Vala and was not native to Middle-earth. Yet the description of the plant is unmistakably wheat, not maize.

Note also that Lembas was already known to the Eldar in the First Age, long before the "mortalization" of Aman (if we were to accept that this very late notion was ever more than a notion), and Text 2 states that the Exiled Noldor brought it with them. In other words, it could hardly be other than "the tall wheat of the Gods" (Sil), a divine variant of wheat which was no more found in M-E than were horses like Nahar.

But most of all: Text I explicitly calls it wheat, and where 2 calls it "wheat-corn" there is no way that this is a misreading of T's handwriting, since Text 2 was typed!

(It seems that Yavanna or the Elves of Eressea also brought tobacco, at least as far as Numenor!)
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Old 09-07-2021, 04:47 AM   #45
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But most of all: Text I explicitly calls it wheat, and where 2 calls it "wheat-corn" there is no way that this is a misreading of T's handwriting, since Text 2 was typed!
Timeline time!

- HoME XII, "Of Lembas" - fine handwritten manuscript; late 1950s, as you say. The grain is named as "corn", and described as having "great golden ears" and "white haulm", which seems to just mean the stalks (ie, to make hay/straw). It is noted as fairly hardy, but in a magical sort of way (can grow in anything short of frost, but not if the wind blows from Utumno).

Is it the "haulm" that identifies this as wheat? I don't think anything else there does, but grains are hardly my field!

- NoME, "The Numenorean Catastrophe" - hastily written in black pen, ca. 1959. Tolkien concludes that "I think now that it is best that [Aman] should remain a physical landmass (America!) [sic]. [...] The flora and fauna (even if different in some [?items] from those of Middle-earth) would become ordinary beasts and plants with usual conditions of mortality."

IE: Any distinctive Western species would remain distinct, except that they would become mortal. This implies that eg llamas, redwoods, and maize all previously existed in Aman. It does not mean that wheat did not - it could simply have gone extinct after the Downfall.

My argument is that after this point Tolkien may have come to consider Lembas to be made from maize, not wheat. There would have been no reason to beforehand!

- NoME, "The Making of Lembas", Text 1 - 'extracted from a larger typescript text', ca. 1968. The grain in Lembas is named as wheat.

Interestingly, the word for bread (C.E. khaba) is said to refer originally to most vegetable foods, but "after the coming of corn [= wheat here] was restricted to those made from grain". That kind of implies they had other grains? I'm imagining the Eldar viewing oatmeal and bread as 'basically the same thing, right?'.

- NoME, "The Making of Lembas", Text 2 - 'a hastily written note in black ink', ca. 1968. Seems to be written immediately after Text 1. Says that lembas is made from "meal [?ground] wheat-corn", and then coins the term "Western Corn". Western Corn is now said to have trouble in dim sunlight (different to the HoME XII reference, though maybe still magical). It is also extinct in Middle-earth - twice, actually, it runs out before the Eldar reach Beleriand, is restored by the Noldor, and finally dies out when Galadriel and Arwen leave/die in the Fourth Age.

- NoME, "Note on Elvish Economy" - neat(?) text in black nib-pen, ca. 1968; the paper it's on dates to a month later than those used in the Lembas texts. Talks about Valinorean agriculture, and states that "The grain (of some kind not native to Middle-earth*) was self-sown, and only needed gathering and the scattering of 1/10 (the tithe of Yavanna) of the seed on the field. [...] *From it was descended the grain for lembas."

So the Valinorean grain (not here named as wheat or corn) is definitely a "different kind" to Middle-earth grains. It's hard not to think of the Biblical use of "kind" to mean, roughly, "species" here, but I can't guarantee that's what he meant. If it is, then "Western Corn" is definitely not wheat.

Do wheat or maize self-sow? This article suggests that wheat can, but implies it's not particularly efficient; maize does not, but is noted as coming from a naturally-propagating ancestor.

I don't think this is particularly conclusive either way; for sure, lembas was originally conceived as being made from magic wheat, but the late '50s onwards is when Tolkien was trying to reconcile his Legendarium with the real world! He goes out of his way (NoME, "Of the Land and Beasts of Numenor") to note that the golden trees of Numenor are not magical, despite the Numenoreans thinking they are; he specifically says that certain anachronistic species are not present where they shouldn't be. If (and it's a big if, I know) he stuck with the "Aman becomes America" idea, then I think his use of "Western Corn" is a strong indication that he meant, well, Western Corn.

Are there any text later than NoME "The Numenorean Catastrophe" which discuss the Downfall? Skimming "Myths Transformed", there's a mention in HoME X "Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion" stating that "Aman was removed from the physical world", but CT tentatively dates this to the earlier parts of the transformation period; in fact, I wonder if NoME "The Numenorean Catastrophe" isn't a direct response to it! That text almost begins with "It was physical. Therefore it could not be removed".

HoME X "Aman and Mortal Men" was originally part of the Athrabeth, dated by CT to 1959 (possibly late in the year), so could postdate the NoME text (or rather be written at the same time - the NoME text actually references the Athrabeth!). In discussing conditions in Aman, it says "If it is thus in Aman, or was ere the Change of the World..." This kind of implies that Aman was not physically removed but otherwise remained the same. It would tie in nicely with "The Numenorean Catastrophe"'s apparent conclusion that the physical Aman became America, while the state of Aman became a place of memory. The Eldar, in the Third Age and onwards, became "fear housed only in memory until the true End of Arda" when they passed over the Sea.

One final clue comes from NoME "Elvish Reincarnation", Text 2, dated to 1959 or later. In a note that CT refers to in HoME X, he says that "of course the exact nature of existence in Aman or Eressea after its 'removal' must be dubious and unexplained. Also how 'mortals' could go there at all! The latter not very difficult. Eru commited the Dead of mortals also to Mandos. They waited then a while in recollection before going to Eru. The sojourn of say Frodo in Eressea... was only an extended form of this. [...] So that the sailing on ship was equivalent to death." The context is of a houseless fea reclothing itself in memory, so this seems to fit nicely with the "Numenorean Catastrophe" version.

... unfortunately, none of it says anything about whether the physical continent of Aman was left in place (as America), or simply deleted from the world! Given that in the late '60s (NoME "Dark and Light") he was apparently making the world an elliptical spheroid, I really have no idea what he was thinking.

hS
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Old 09-07-2021, 07:48 AM   #46
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Quote:
- HoME XII, "Of Lembas" - fine handwritten manuscript; late 1950s, as you say. The grain is named as "corn", and described as having "great golden ears" and "white haulm", which seems to just mean the stalks (ie, to make hay/straw). It is noted as fairly hardy, but in a magical sort of way (can grow in anything short of frost, but not if the wind blows from Utumno).

Is it the "haulm" that identifies this as wheat? I don't think anything else there does, but grains are hardly my field!
It also says that both were gathered by hand, and no metal tools were used in the process. You can't do this with maize, trust me; those stalks are brutally thick. And the "haulm" or leftover stalks is nowhere close to white, but a muddy yellowish brown, and useless for straw much less hay. Farmers plow it under.

As to "kind": Maddeningly vague. But it doesn't have to mean species; a Chihuahua is a different "kind" of dog from a Great Dane. Personally I would be very surprised that an Englishman of Tolkien's generation, who never traveled, would have even had a notion that Indian corn was a foodstuff, at least for civilized peoples: as far as he would have been concerned it was merely fodder, only eaten by animals, Red Indians, Americans and other foreign barbarians.

(Much more interesting would be to read T's account of how taters got to Middle-earth)
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Old 09-07-2021, 08:46 AM   #47
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It also says that both were gathered by hand, and no metal tools were used in the process. You can't do this with maize, trust me; those stalks are brutally thick. And the "haulm" or leftover stalks is nowhere close to white, but a muddy yellowish brown, and useless for straw much less hay. Farmers plow it under.
Excellent; at least that (unfortunately early) source is conclusive! (I wonder if there's "divine wheat" in some Norse myth or something? Scandinavia apparently has several traditional flatbreads, which were sometimes the only meal of the day, so it's a possible inspiration.)

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As to "kind": Maddeningly vague. But it doesn't have to mean species; a Chihuahua is a different "kind" of dog from a Great Dane.
Absolutely. But the Biblical use of "kind" stems (partly?) from the Noah story, in which it's hard to imagine God insisting that Noah take 7/2 of every breed of dog! So yeah, it's tempting, but not conclusive.

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Personally I would be very surprised that an Englishman of Tolkien's generation, who never traveled, would have even had a notion that Indian corn was a foodstuff, at least for civilized peoples: as far as he would have been concerned it was merely fodder, only eaten by animals, Red Indians, Americans and other foreign barbarians.
"Never travelled"? o.O I mean... even setting aside France and Belgium, he definitely went to Switzerland, because it inspired the slip-slide down the slope in The Hobbit. I'll take your word on maize not being eaten in England at the time, but I think this remains at least a possibility, though of course not conclusive.

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(Much more interesting would be to read T's account of how taters got to Middle-earth)
"Taters of Middle-earth", coming from the files of Carl F. Hostetter 2023.

(Potatoes, tobacco, and tomatoes are all nightshades, right? Probably the Numenoreans imported all three - potatoes in particular are an amazing food-crop, and while tomatoes only have a tentative existence in M-e they're no more out of place. It seems like all three were mostly found only around the Shire, so it would only take a local outbreak of some virulant tobacco mosaic strain to wipe them from the continent. Bonus points if we can make athelas a nightshade too!)

hS
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Old 09-08-2021, 07:45 AM   #48
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Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)

As for taters: there is however a strong hint in the Narn that potatoes were native to M-E, since it seems that that's what Mim's "earth-bread" was.
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Old 09-08-2021, 07:51 AM   #49
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"Never travelled"? o.O I mean... even setting aside France and Belgium, he definitely went to Switzerland, because it inspired the slip-slide down the slope in The Hobbit. I'll take your word on maize not being eaten in England at the time, but I think this remains at least a possibility, though of course not conclusive.

hS
Let's rephrase that: was not at all traveled as an adult, that is after his war service in France. He only got a passport in 1949, needing it to go to Dublin as an examiner. He never again left the British Isles, save one vac. in Italy with Priscilla in the 50s, and an overnighter to Rotterdam for a "Hobbit-feast" in his honor. Neither country eats Indian corn, (not then, anyway).
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Old 09-08-2021, 09:12 AM   #50
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Nicotiana has flowering variants which are common garden plants, and it is said that it grew wild in Gondor, having been brought from Numenor for its fragrant flowers (it is not any sort of nightshade)
It is, of course - genus Nicotiana is in the family Solanaceae, AKA the nightshades. It isn't a Solanum or Atropa, though. But until Hostetter brings out the long lost Tolkien Botanical Collection, I don't suppose it really matters. ^_^

Sticking with the plants... NoME "Of the Lands and Beasts of Numenor" describes the trees of both Beleriand (hornbeam, small maple, flowering chestnut) and Numenor (wych-elm, holm-oak, tall maple, sweet chestnut, walnut). Was Tolkien just naming random trees, or are these geographically varied in their natural state?

hS
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Old 09-12-2021, 03:16 AM   #51
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NOME 3.II "The Primal Impulse" is something of a delight. As a chemist I'm delighted to see Tolkien's thoughts on, essentially, the Big Bang and the philosophy of matter, but as always, the best stuff is in the trivia:

- The Valar refuse to admit that Eru has added anything to the world other than the Children, but the Eldar disagree. "Some of these things that appear suddenly in History and [?continue] then in obedience to E (or soon cease to be [?seen]) may indeed be due directly to Eru. (These things are called the signs of the Finger of Eru.)"

- In a discussion of matings between Elves and Men: "this has rarely been done, and as for the High Elves, the Eldar, only twice. In Middle-earth, unless tales be now [? [I wonder if this is 'lost']] thrice: Beren/Luthien, Idril/Tuor, Ancestors of Imrahil. " So yes, that's direct confirmation that there are probably more Half-Elves outside the North-West!

hS
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Old 09-12-2021, 06:03 AM   #52
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Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.
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Old 09-12-2021, 08:39 AM   #53
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Interesting, given that by this time he had long determined that the Nandor were indeed Eldar.
But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

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Old 09-12-2021, 09:20 AM   #54
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Perhaps Tolkien had recently read Appendix F concerning what Eldar meant

Even Christopher Tolkien seems to have been paying Appendix F its due when compiling his "List Of Names In The Tale Of The Children Of Hrin":

Quote:
"Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand."
Pretty much agrees with Tolkien's published -- never revised -- Eldar: Elves of the Great Journey Over Sea > plus the Sindar "only" -- or "West-Elves" (compare "to Beleriand").

Of course in his introduction to COH, Christopher Tolkien makes the distinction between Eldar and Avari, where his father's distinction in the Appendix was between West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves, in any case. But even so, The Children of Hrin entry for Eldar is, for me, interestingly different from the constructed Silmarillion entry, and the chart (The Sundering Of The Elves), which reflect posthumously published ideas.
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Old 09-12-2021, 12:54 PM   #55
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But not High Elves, surely. I thought that was only the Valinoreans and Sindar? Precisely who is Eldar depends on who is speaking...

hS
Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).
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Old 09-12-2021, 02:41 PM   #56
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Except that in this very quote he wrote "the High Elves, the Eldar." Which if anything is a new use of "High Elves," which in all other cases I can think of is restricted to the Calaquendi, the "High Elves of the West" (and, in Middle-earth, meaning the exiled Noldor).
What the heck am I thinking of, then?? I know there's SOME term that means Caliquendi+Sindar, but I can't for the life of me remember what if it's not either High Elves or Eldar.

hS
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Old 09-12-2021, 03:58 PM   #57
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A puzzle.

In another late text, Of Dwarves and Men, Tolkien contrasts the "High Eldar" of Valinor with the Eldar of Middle-earth; I'm not sure that that distinction appears elsewhere. It also doesn't tell us whether "ordinary lunchpail proletarian Eldar" included the Nandor or not.

Going back to the very beginning, in the Lost Tales, it was easy: Eldar = Elves of Valinor. The rest were all Ilkorindi, "not of Kor." Even the Noldoli/Gnomes dropped out of the Eldar when they came back, to become a third "tribe."
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Old 09-12-2021, 09:50 PM   #58
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In their Reader's Companion to The Lord of the Rings, Hammond and Scull noted:

Quote:
"Elsewhere Tolkien equates Eldar with the High Elves ( . . . ) or defines the term more narrowly as "the West-elves" in contrast to the "East-elves", . . .).
There seems to be two definitions of High Elf: one (and the one seemingly more frequently employed by Tolkien) is equivalent to Tareldar -- and with respect to Middle-earth at least, the Tareldar are the returned Noldor.

Another use of the term "High Elves" seems to be basically equivalent to Eldar however, and thus includes the Sindar
-- at least arguably, given:

Quote:
"In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established
. . ."

Appendix B, Tale of Years

When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor, Frodo knew these were "High Elves" seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. And if I read the signs rightly, when Tolkien wrote this passage the name Elbereth was "Noldorin" not Sindarin > in any case, after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario we still have Frodo saying these are High Elves, as if Sindarin Elbereth is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark, but in my opinion it still works, given the suggestion from Appendix B.

Of course Gildor and Company turn out to be Exiles anyway, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.

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Old 09-17-2021, 09:31 AM   #59
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When Tolkien originally wrote the passage with Gildor, Frodo knew these were "High Elves" seemingly due to the name Elbereth. Yet the Sindar use this name, and the name is Sindarin. And if I read the signs rightly, when Tolkien wrote this passage the name Elbereth was "Noldorin" not Sindarin > in any case, after Tolkien changed the linguistic scenario we still have Frodo saying these are High Elves, as if Sindarin Elbereth is a sign of this. Some might say Tolkien forgot to revise Frodo's remark, but in my opinion it still works, given the suggestion from Appendix B.

Of course Gildor and Company turn out to be Exiles anyway, but Frodo's implication with respect to the name Elbereth need not be wrong.
Yes, it all still works. Tolkien had covered most of his bases with Thingol's Edict and the Noldor adopting Sindarin for everyday speech. The invocation of Varda Tintalle, by any name, still marks them out as Tareldar even before Gildor says so.

But it doesn't help us in figuring out how to class the Nandor.
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Old 09-17-2021, 05:57 PM   #60
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The Nandor dilemma as I see it, with respect to them being Eldar or not.

According to Appendix F, most of the Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood were East-elves, whose languages were not-Eldarin. And we can hardly say that JRRT forgot this section entirely for the revised edition, as he added a footnote to try to
re-characterize this very thing about the speech of the Elves of Lorien specifically . . . that is, "now" these Elves speak an Eldarin tongue (Sindarin), but with an accent.

I'm not sure how well this holds up with what is said in the Lorien chapters though. Frodo was not the only one that could be misled by an accent. "They had little speech with any of the Elven-folk; for few of these spoke any but their own silvan tongue." "Silvan tongue" aside, did their speech mislead Aragorn and Boromir too? And often "they" (the companions) heard nearby Elvish voices singing, but if Legolas was with the Company "he would not interpret the songs for them"

Again, if these Elves were speaking Sindarin with an accent, is the suggestion, at least, that even Aragorn was not getting it? Or Boromir?

Possible.

Or are we now supposed to imagine that some in Lorien spoke a Silvan Tongue, others Sindarin with an accent?

Or . . . just call it Silvan Elvish


Anyway, in some posthumously published texts, and thus in the constructed Silmarillion, the Nandor are Eldarin, but this contradicts Appendix F (see below), and given CJRT's later entry in COH (at least one of the entries!) he seems to want to "return" to a definition more in line with what his father actually published. But instead of using that "five letter word" (canon), I'll put it this way, similar to what was done with the Lost Tales: in the tales Tolkien himself published it was easy:

Eldar = West Elves = Elves who passed Over Sea plus the Sindar only. And the languages of The East Elves (most of the Elven Folk of Mirkwood and Lorien) were not Eldarin -- makes sense, they weren't Eldar.


Less easy perhaps (second edition), as noted, JRRT adds that Sindarin was spoken in Lorien at least, but with an accent: "And this "accent" and his own limited acquaintance with Sindarin misled Frodo." Cough. Okay. But the idea still remains that these East-elves are not Eldar, even if they learned an Eldarin tongue.

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Old 09-20-2021, 03:30 AM   #61
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Help, someone can't count.

In NoME 1.XIII, "Key Dates", Text 1 is Tolkien's final timeline of the Awakening to the March. It matches up nicely with his final Generational Scheme (1.XVII, scheme 7), so we can be confident it's actually final.

Tolkien gives the date of the Awakening as VY 850/1 - ie, the first sun-year of the 850th Valian Year, a Valian Year being 144 sun-year. He also gives the date as First Age 1. Fine.

The Finding of the elves is also fixed. It takes place in the last sun-year of 864 (ie, 864/144), with events after this all being in 865. And again, he gives a First Age date: 2016.

Except, ummm. 2016 = 144 x 14, so comes 14 VY after FA1. One VY after 850/1 is 851/1; two is 852/1; you can follow the pattern up, and 2016 = 864/1, not 864/144 or even 865/1.

Hostetter usually notes Tolkien's mathematical errors, but let's this one pass silently. Tolkien continues to use 864/144 as the date of the Finding, with all later dates based on this - this definitely isn't a printing error. So I have to wonder if I'm the one who's wrong, messing up either my maths or my reading.

Help help, who can't count: Huinesoron off the Internet, or JRR Tolkien and one of his foremost scholars?

hS
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Old 09-20-2021, 08:40 AM   #62
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All his life, Tolkien was prone to making "fencepost errors" or what IT types call "off-by-one" errors. They plagued his work on the Lord of the Rings' chronology. This is another example.
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