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Old 09-07-2022, 09:47 AM   #41
Legate of Amon Lanc
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Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
I liked it in one regard, they were showing something that's a deeply profound moment in Tolkien's creation, passing to Valinor, so that's very special indeed. But it was nothing like the "swift green sunrise" I imagined.
I, on the other hand, could think only about the fact that I thought they went too literal with the "silver curtain" etc... I assume the swift green sunrise would have been there had Galadriel passed through... (maybe we'll see it in the epilogue to Season 10 or somesuch)

As for the undressing... I was not really paying attention to who was undressing whom, I was too shocked by the entire scene itself... but now that you mention it, doesn't it sort of (and didn't it sort of visually) resemble some, say, Egyptian practices, you know, servants are putting the pharaoh into the tomb...?

I mean obviously otherwise the undressing was there so that "you are going into Undying Lands, you are leaving your armour and war-equipment behind, this is the peaceful land"; but it is true that it looked sorta creepy.
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Old 09-07-2022, 10:41 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post

The Good: Stone Age Hobbits: 9/10

And then the Stone Age Proto-Hobbits can WRITE. Yes! This is the screenwriters READING and PAYING ATTENTION to the original. Because the Hobbits' affinity for books is somewhat counterintuitive (merry, simple farmers, or in this case gatherers, are not what you'd associate with literacy as one of their chief values), it would be easy to miss this one. But look! They have books AND their own proto-script! If Tolkien the linguist were to cheer at anything, I daresay it would be this. Well done!
This is another place where the showrunners were not paying any attention (unless it was another one of those 'well we went back to the books and we felt that was what Tolkien wanted' despite what Tolkien said).

"Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo’s time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days."
LotR, Prologue

Hobbits were illiterate until ca. TA 1300:
"It was soon after their learning of letters, about Third Age 1300, that Hobbits began to set down and collect the considerable store of tales and legends and oral annals and genealogies that they already possessed."
PoMe, Appendix on Languages
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Old 09-07-2022, 12:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Formendacil
Why "Harfoot"? What was wrong with "holbytla"?
They were not yet sedentary enough to become hole-dwellers, and hairy feet are the one thing common to all kinds of Hobbit throughout history.


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Originally Posted by Michael Murry
Formendacil: "WHY the giant antlers? A Thranduil-call sideways?"

Thank you so much for that. When I told my Taiwanese wife about it, she had the same reaction we both did to Thranduil and his absurd choice of ride in The Hobbit: "You call yourself a Wood Elf? How do you expect to get through the forest with those monstrous wardrobe racks catching on every tree trunk and branch along the way?"
I take it they were using the antlers as camouflage: the animals they were hunting, who would only have seen the antlers above the high grass, would have taken them for browsing deer and not become alarmed. I've seen historical depictions of Native American's using the same deceit, although with less humongous palms. Also they were hunting in a lightly forested prairie of grass and shrubs, so the huge antlers are more defensible in their case than in Thranduil's (still impractical, of course).



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Originally Posted by Tar Elenion View Post
This is another place where the showrunners were not paying any attention (unless it was another one of those 'well we went back to the books and we felt that was what Tolkien wanted' despite what Tolkien said).

"Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo’s time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days."
LotR, Prologue

Hobbits were illiterate until ca. TA 1300:
"It was soon after their learning of letters, about Third Age 1300, that Hobbits began to set down and collect the considerable store of tales and legends and oral annals and genealogies that they already possessed."
PoMe, Appendix on Languages
Well, love of learning was far from general among the Harfeet we see in RoP - it was only Sadoc, the cunning man/druid/historian of the tribe who could read (and write) the chronicles, and what we see on their pages are more pictograms than any kind of syllabic or alphabetic script. Also I think it's safe to assume that most of what was in Sadoc's book would have been largely lost and forgotten by the time the Hobbits arrived in the Shire.
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Old 09-07-2022, 01:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
Well, love of learning was far from general among the Harfeet we see in RoP - it was only Sadoc, the cunning man/druid/historian of the tribe who could read (and write) the chronicles, and what we see on their pages are more pictograms than any kind of syllabic or alphabetic script. Also I think it's safe to assume that most of what was in Sadoc's book would have been largely lost and forgotten by the time the Hobbits arrived in the Shire.
No. I think it is much better to take what Tolkien said about his own mythology.
Particularly when I was replying to a statement about how it showed they were "READING and PAYING ATTENTION to the original", i.e. Tolkien, and I supplied what Tolkien said, showing they were not reading and paying attention.
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Old 09-07-2022, 01:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post
I, on the other hand, could think only about the fact that I thought they went too literal with the "silver curtain" etc... I assume the swift green sunrise would have been there had Galadriel passed through... (maybe we'll see it in the epilogue to Season 10 or somesuch)

As for the undressing... I was not really paying attention to who was undressing whom, I was too shocked by the entire scene itself... but now that you mention it, doesn't it sort of (and didn't it sort of visually) resemble some, say, Egyptian practices, you know, servants are putting the pharaoh into the tomb...?

I mean obviously otherwise the undressing was there so that "you are going into Undying Lands, you are leaving your armour and war-equipment behind, this is the peaceful land"; but it is true that it looked sorta creepy.
It's a prime (ho ho) example of how something read, and interpreted according to your own experience of the world, is different to how another person reads and imagines it. To me, that transition to Valinor would be like sailing into the silvery curtain of a 'sea fret' (a type of fog that forms in particular over the sea and coast of NE England) and emerging to see green fields ahead. It sticks powerfully as an image, the quiet, the damp, the eerie sound. In RoP it was really grand and golden.

This doesn't mean it's *wrong*, it's just not in any way as I'd imagine it, and like they were taken by something rather than quietly disappearing.

Interesting contrast though to how the Barrow-wights were prepared as dead Men for their own final journey, with their weapons accompanying them.
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Old 09-07-2022, 01:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Formendacil View Post
  • Tired of the map already. A strength of the Jackson movies was living IN the geography and capturing the book's labourious movement through it. Not so here!
  • Why British accents in Harad? Okay, I know why: all fantasy beings speak British--so no American accents--and you must avoid Evil Stereotypes, so real world English-as-a-Second-Language accents are out, but I don't like it.
  • Is trip to Valinor actually an artistic depiction of ritual suicide?
Have they shown us Mordor yet?

Apparently most of the actors are trying to disguise their Australian accents. I suppose a voice coach cost too much given the limited budget.

I thought it was a Rapture myself.

EDIT: Please note my question is rhetorical for Form's sake about the use of the maps, which foreshadows events. *rolls eyes* Thank you.
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Old 09-07-2022, 01:56 PM   #47
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The the area where the southlanders dwell and the watch tower is in *Mordor (per maps leaked before the show). The map in the show labels southlands immediately east of *Mordor.
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Old 09-07-2022, 03:17 PM   #48
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Going back to a minor point for a moment.

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Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
Emphasis mine. Assisted Gil-galad in the last fight with Sauron himself - you can't get much more combatant than this. But evidently Elrond's healing capacity wasn't much diminished by this, and it is he who is portrayed as the great healer by the narrative of LotR, not Galadriel. So your point is?
I'm not sure "stood by" implies Elrond participated (or assisted) in that last fight with Sauron. The text I I think pretty straight forward with how those events played out.

1. Sauron goes into combat with Gil-galad and Elendil.
2. Gil-galad and Elendil both perish, but Sauron is overthrown in the contest as well.
3. Isildur cuts the ring from Sauron's hand.
4. Elrond and Cirdan were the only others present and counseled Isildur to destroy the ring
5. Isildur claims the Ring as weregild for the death of his father and brother.

Quote:
"I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host."~The Council of Elrond
I'm not sure if herald's had other meanings, besides being a messenger? All Elrond says is he "marched with his [Gil-galad's] host" and "stood by" him at the end as one of the few there who knew what happened.
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Old 09-07-2022, 03:42 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tar Elenion View Post
"Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo’s time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days."
LotR, Prologue

Hobbits were illiterate until ca. TA 1300:
"It was soon after their learning of letters, about Third Age 1300, that Hobbits began to set down and collect the considerable store of tales and legends and oral annals and genealogies that they already possessed."
PoMe, Appendix on Languages
Ah well, my bad. Thanks for the correction. That is on me not remembering then. Guess I am getting old.

But I anyway have to say that I like it. It preserves some of the feel, if not the canon (which is already not preserved by the names, see above).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë View Post
It's a prime (ho ho) example of how something read, and interpreted according to your own experience of the world, is different to how another person reads and imagines it. To me, that transition to Valinor would be like sailing into the silvery curtain of a 'sea fret' (a type of fog that forms in particular over the sea and coast of NE England) and emerging to see green fields ahead. It sticks powerfully as an image, the quiet, the damp, the eerie sound. In RoP it was really grand and golden.

This doesn't mean it's *wrong*, it's just not in any way as I'd imagine it, and like they were taken by something rather than quietly disappearing.

Interesting contrast though to how the Barrow-wights were prepared as dead Men for their own final journey, with their weapons accompanying them.
I imagined the curtain first of all as kind of semi-metaphorical, or something that is borderline hard to describe, a mystical experience of sorts: something that is like a feeling of passing the curtain, but obviously not literally, but you don't really have any better words for it (and in retrospect, you also can't tell if it was "real", i.e. tangible, or not).

But I personally also imagine it rather silver than golden. Maybe the showmakers have some obsession with gold as opposed to silver. First Gil-Galad, who too was supposed to "shine" with the light of "stars" and "silver shield"; now this...

Nice spotting the thing about the Barrow-Wights though! I actually like that marked difference between the Men (notably "evil" Men) and the Elves (notably "good" Elves)...

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Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
I'm not sure if herald's had other meanings, besides being a messenger? All Elrond says is he "marched with his [Gil-galad's] host" and "stood by" him at the end as one of the few there who knew what happened.
I personally imagine herald as being the guy who stands next to Gil-Galad with a trumpet and announces "Lord of the Black Land! Hear us! Gil-Galad, the First (and Only) of His Name, King of the Noldor and the Free Realms, now challenges you to a duel! Come forth if you do not wish to be seen as rotten coward!"
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Old 09-07-2022, 03:45 PM   #50
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Elrond was in the War of Wrath:
"Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. ‘I remember well the splendour of their banners,’ he said. ‘It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.’"
LotR, Council of Elrond
Led armies in the War of Elves and Sauron:
"When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion."
"But his force was weakened by the necessity of leaving a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear."
"The army that was besieging Imladris was caught between Elrond and Gilgalad, and utterly destroyed."
UT, History of G&C
(along with the participation in the Last Alliance)
This seems to establish Elrond as a warrior and war-leader in the First and Second Ages.

In Third Age draft materials Tolkien also indicated Elrond took part in the Angmar wars, but replaced him with Glorfindel.

In my opinion, Elrond as a healer is being established in the Third Age. Hence abstaining from war, as do elven-healers (though male healers will go to war at last need).

Elf-women abstain from war and this abstention gives them great virtue in healing (though elven-women will fight in desperate defence, much as Galadriel did at the First Kinslaying).
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Old 09-07-2022, 03:49 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Boromir88 View Post
I'm not sure "stood by" implies Elrond participated (or assisted) in that last fight with Sauron. The text I I think pretty straight forward with how those events played out.

1. Sauron goes into combat with Gil-galad and Elendil.
2. Gil-galad and Elendil both perish, but Sauron is overthrown in the contest as well.
3. Isildur cuts the ring from Sauron's hand.
4. Elrond and Cirdan were the only others present and counseled Isildur to destroy the ring
5. Isildur claims the Ring as weregild for the death of his father and brother.

I'm not sure if herald's had other meanings, besides being a messenger? All Elrond says is he "marched with his [Gil-galad's] host" and "stood by" him at the end as one of the few there who knew what happened.
OK, back to the text. This is once more Elrond speaking:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LotR Book Two, The Council of Elrond
I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery; for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.
We're agreed, aren't we, that the mortal contest in the quote I gave earlier refers to this last combat? It never says that none but Elendil and Gil-galad engaged Sauron, only that both perished in this fight. And what else do you imagine Isildur, Círdan and Elrond were doing while their kings (one of them Isildur's father) were fighting the Enemy? How do you read Elrond saying that he and Círdan stood by Gil-galad if not as direct involvement and active support (as in Stand By Your Man)? Were they just standing there watching?
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Old 09-07-2022, 04:02 PM   #52
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It never says that none but Elendil and Gil-galad engaged Sauron, only that both perished in this fight.
Horrible argument.

Quote:
And what else do you imagine Isildur, Círdan and Elrond were doing while their kings (one of them Isildur's father) were fighting the Enemy? How do you read Elrond saying that he and Círdan stood by Gil-galad if not as direct involvement and active support (as in Stand By Your Man)? Were they just standing there watching?
Acting as seconds while their respective lords engaged in honorable two on one combat...
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Old 09-07-2022, 04:06 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitchwife View Post
OK, back to the text. This is once more Elrond speaking:

We're agreed, aren't we, that the mortal contest in the quote I gave earlier refers to this last combat? It never says that none but Elendil and Gil-galad engaged Sauron, only that both perished in this fight. And what else do you imagine Isildur, Círdan and Elrond were doing while their kings (one of them Isildur's father) were fighting the Enemy? How do you read Elrond saying that he and Círdan stood by Gil-galad if not as direct involvement and active support (as in Stand By Your Man)? Were they just standing there watching?
Yes we are agreed that's the "last combat." But in that quote you give Elrond uses "beheld," meaning he observed it. And in the Silmarillion:

Quote:
But at last the siege was so straight that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.~Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age
So, I've always seen it as Sauron challenging the 2 generals to combat. Sort of similar to Fingolfin challenging Morgoth in a 1-on-1. Only this would have been 2 on 1.

Edit: Cross-post with Tar-Elenion

Anyway, apologies for the little detour. Back to business as usual.

Prediction for Episode 3: Galadriel and Halbrand meet Elendil on a boat.
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Old 09-07-2022, 11:18 PM   #54
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Well here we are again! I have kept my expectations fairly low for the show and will try to keep them so (so you know). Overall I enjoyed the first couple of episodes and I think this will be a show that I enjoy once and never need to see again.


I don't find myself wanting to watch the LotR or Hobbit movies ever again either except in good company, because good company and good memories have been the most enduring thing I got out of them. I hope to get at least one of those out of this show.


Memory is not what the heart desires, be it as clear as Kheled-Zaram...... yeah yeah ok.



I do like the Harfoot scenes the best so far - Nori is very Tookish, and Poppy (who might have shrek ears in her hair?) seems to be written as the next Samwise. Which to my mind is ok because we need more Samwises.



A few folks here have mentioned how jarring it is that Galadriel looks younger than Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, etc. but I like to think it's because she has seen the two trees.



Galadriel and the guy on the raft.......who I will dub Raftwurst because otherwise I would have to look up his real name - has been the most cringeworthy thing thus far. And not just because the first fanfic I ever wrote as a child was about two disney characters stuck on a raft on the open sea. Ahem. It's the circle of life. It's also calling on emotions for characters who haven't inspired them yet.



The sailing to Valinor scene did seem pretty creepy, I bet it will be even more so when Ar-Pharason tries to sail it.



I look forward to seeing more of Celebrimbor, I share B88 and Legate's appreciation for a "mad scientist" type. Charles Edwards (and Trystan Gravelle who will be Ar-Pharazon]) was in "The Terror" which is one of my favorite tv shows, I didn't recognize him until he started talking. I'll forgive him for being a bit too aged (maybe he's just been standing over too many forges). I'm already kind of sad for Celebrimbor's bloody end but I think that will be cool to see. I hope we get to see a lot of the things he makes.



I think that Legate is right about Theodwurst (thanks Pitchwife) = becoming the Witch King of Angmar It would also be pretty cool if that area were to become Mordor / Nurn.



I don't think we've seen the ancestor(s) of Eorl the Young yet.



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  • And that dagger has seen some stuff! From Valinor to ME and almost back again? Heck, would not be surprised if Turin gets to use it in Dagor Dagorath.

Well it's a bit too imposing to be wielded at Knifey Kniforath, that's for sure!
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Old 09-08-2022, 03:04 AM   #55
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Heralds were and still are prominent roles in British (mostly English and Scots) society. It's a formal role now, and does take the shape of stepping up in a fancy surcoat and announcing VIPs in a pompous manner - "William, fifth of his name, master of helicopters, etcetera".

But heralds were also go betweens or a type of diplomat, carrying out important negotiations on behalf of king or lord. Compared in modern terms they might be a type of civil service permanent secretary, authorised to speak and lead on an issue and represent the 'authority'. There may have been an expectation too to understand heraldry and the extremely complex visual language of shields and emblems, exactly what a scroll might mean when added to a banner, or the power relationships indicated by the quartering on a shield. That makes perfect sense if you are also a type of diplomat - it's important to know that Lord Long is second cousin to Lord Short, and his wife is another of Lord Shirt's cousins on his mother's side etc. They weren't divested with the ability to change arms* - that was and is the Earl Marshall's role.

Heralds weren't really warriors, but they may be involved in armoury as part of a household, and they may have been involved in battle, certainly they'd have to be able to handle themselves even if not part of the ranks.

Book Elrond is definitely keen on banners, so...

One of the aspects of the new series I am keen to see develop. Obvious already that Elrond has had a role negotiating with the dwarves.

* Important to note that 'arms' means either weapons or visual representations of bloodline/connection/honour.
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Old 09-08-2022, 03:35 AM   #56
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Regarding the area the series is calling the Southlands, from what I vaguely recall of the map is as Tar Elenion was directly east of Mordor. So, it looks to be where Gondor would later be established.

I've got no problems with this depiction as I would say it could be from the Elvish perspective of being south of Lindon/Eregion. Boromir is introduced by Elrond as:

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"Here," said Elrond, turning to Gandalf, "is Boromir, a man from the South."~The Council of Elrond
In Bree, I think it's Butterbur (it may have been Aragorn) who noted there's a lot of strangers coming from the South. I've thought of them as just being people from Gondor, trying to escape the brooding war. I think there may be some spies from Saruman mixed in, but it seemed like there was angst among the Bree-landers about the new travelers from the South.
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Old 09-08-2022, 06:42 AM   #57
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A few folks here have mentioned how jarring it is that Galadriel looks younger than Gil-Galad, Celebrimbor, etc. but I like to think it's because she has seen the two trees.
I like that interpretation! Clever.

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The sailing to Valinor scene did seem pretty creepy, I bet it will be even more so when Ar-Pharason tries to sail it.
Oh yeees, I did not realise that... well, that was Chekov's gun, in that case. Clever. Maybe the authors then know what they want to do in the last season. Or at least I would hope so.

But in that case I sort of pity that this show is not Game of Thrones after all. You know, generally I despise graphic violence, but the idea of Ar-Pharazon being chopped in half by the curtain... then the gold turns red... okay, okay, let's save it for some tasteless horror flick.

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Charles Edwards (and Trystan Gravelle who will be Ar-Pharazon]) was in "The Terror" which is one of my favorite tv shows, I didn't recognize him until he started talking. I'll forgive him for being a bit too aged (maybe he's just been standing over too many forges). I'm already kind of sad for Celebrimbor's bloody end but I think that will be cool to see. I hope we get to see a lot of the things he makes.
Oh no! I did not realise either of them were in The Terror! Of course, now that you mention it... I mentally crossed him off the list of actors I might know when Greenie screamed that he was in Downtown Abbey (but then, who wasn't). Nice.

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Heralds weren't really warriors, but they may be involved in armoury as part of a household, and they may have been involved in battle, certainly they'd have to be able to handle themselves even if not part of the ranks.

Book Elrond is definitely keen on banners, so...

One of the aspects of the new series I am keen to see develop. Obvious already that Elrond has had a role negotiating with the dwarves.
Yes, in that respect, he is quite a diplomat, isn't he? Actually the more I think of it, I kinda like the show's take on him. But I have to say that I am still waiting for him to "bloom", to show his personality and what defines him and drives and motivates him in full. (I think the problem is again so far the lack of focus. People are going about their daily business, unaware that eeevil is rising, but so far I have not seen any agenda from them - besides Celebrimbor.

That's why I, incidentally, think that they missed the boat with not giving Galadriel the agenda of building her own kingdom - or should I rather say keeping that agenda, as it were. It would have given her a more proactive focus that then Sauron would throw a wrench into. The same Gil-Galad. The whole problem of the Second Age Elves - AND Men - was that they were proactive, and Sauron simply turned it against them.

Maybe they should now do some turnover that now that the audience knows about the existing danger, Galadriel et al should get temporarily placated and lulled into a sense that against their better judgment everything is fine after all, and start going about their own agendas.)

Ahem. That was quite an excurse. What I wanted to say was that I can imagine Elrond - and the show seems to start well in that direction - in his youth being the sort of geek into coats of arms and all such sorts of lore. I would have also loved to see him in the role of Gil-Galad's "fanboy" that would develop into the herald position.

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Regarding the area the series is calling the Southlands, from what I vaguely recall of the map is as Tar Elenion was directly east of Mordor. So, it looks to be where Gondor would later be established.
I do not recall the map, but if it is east, then it would be Nurn, not Gondor. Gondor is west.

Anyway, to me it seemed to me that the maps were generally vague, usually showing a fairly large area without clear borders, perhaps exactly in order to preserve the "ta-da!" effect of "...and this place became Mordor" (or Gondor, or what-have-you). And of course to reflect the reality of the time: Middle-Earth was, from all we know, in a sort of "Dark Ages", and there likely were not any bigger statelike bodies.

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Originally Posted by Boro
I've got no problems with this depiction as I would say it could be from the Elvish perspective of being south of Lindon/Eregion. Boromir is introduced by Elrond as:

In Bree, I think it's Butterbur (it may have been Aragorn) who noted there's a lot of strangers coming from the South. I've thought of them as just being people from Gondor, trying to escape the brooding war. I think there may be some spies from Saruman mixed in, but it seemed like there was angst among the Bree-landers about the new travelers from the South.
For the record, I always understood that "South" in both these cases simply meant "South for us, i.e. basically anything south from here". If you are a mostly stationary peasant (or even noble) and your world is centered on your home country (if not village), then if you are a Haradian, obviously even folk from Nurn are "Northerners" for you, or if you are Forodwaith, then Breelanders are "Southerners". I remember finding it somewhat "wrong" that Bill Ferny's companion was dubbed "the sly Southerner", but I still understood that it did not mean that he had an oliphaunt in his barn (though it would explain why he needed to make more space by selling the pony).

Specifically, I have always understood the immigrants into Bree not as being from Gondor (horribly far!), but simply from the "empty places" between Isen and Brandywine (Enedwaith, Minhiriath - the few folk that still survived there), at most Dunlanders (which would explain Saruman's spies et al). There was trouble and war not only in Gondor, but probably all sorts of bandits, Orcs, wolves, Dunlending raiders pushed from their lands by other raiders and so on, that would affect everybody.

But this would be for another thread.
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Old 09-08-2022, 07:38 AM   #58
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I must have missed the *Celebrimbor mention re: age.

Celebrimbor was born in Aman, his mother refused to go into Exile and remained behind.
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Old 09-08-2022, 03:41 PM   #59
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I do not recall the map, but if it is east, then it would be Nurn, not Gondor. Gondor is west.
It might have been to the west. I thought I remembered seeing the Ephel Duath, and the Southlands starting right below the Ered Nimrais. But my memory of the map is sketchy.

I do recall the Watchwarden telling Arondir that this land used to be wasteland before the Elves came, and now under their watch it's transformed into a luscious, green valley. That's why I wanted some more backstory between the Elves occupation of the Southlands. Why are the people that live here evil? Why are they happy (most of them) the Elves are gone? If the land has become rich and fertile for growing.
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Old 09-11-2022, 09:55 AM   #60
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I have watched the first three episodes now. I started out with a List of impressions, but then scrapped it, because there's no sense in belabouring and rehashing much of what has been said already. There were parts that I liked, there were parts that I didn't like, but for the most part I just found that it's dull. There is only one storyline in which I found myself even remotely invested, and that's the Harfeet. Like many others here, I discovered that they are quite enjoyable - I like their secretive ways and their costumes and mannerisms and peculiar expressions - wheels and carts and goats and all that. And, surprisingly, I don't mind too much in a detached sort of way what they are doing with the Stranger. But for the rest of the story - for the most part it is just so... forgettable. No, really. It's forgettable. If I never finish the show, I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. I purposefully pushed starting to watch it for a few episodes to be out so that I can watch straight to where the plot thickens, but in 3 episodes it's failed to make me invested in all but one storyline. I am left quite uncurious about what happens next, and utterly not invested in the majority of their characters. There are two reasons for watching the show at this point; one is inertia, the "one more episode" thing, but that doesn't work when it's just being released one episode at a time. The second - and hence only - reason is that this is probably going to be the talk on the Downs and the subject of many debates and deliberations and jokes and discussions of all sorts for months to come, and I'd probably watch it to keep abreast of the talk on the street, so to speak. Who knows, maybe it does get better over time - more believable characters, more thought-out plot - but so far I find myself trying my best to like it but finding myself unmoved by the overall effect.

I will post some more specific impressions on other corresponding threads, including the stuf I did like. But for now, since I have been forewarned to pay attention to certain questions, I can answer the geographic debate about Southlands. The first time that name appears on the map, it is distinctly EAST of Mordor. The second time it is shown, it's written all over the Gondor/Mordor area. My conclusion is that "Southlands" is literally just a broad term for the south of the ME map (but not as south as Harad).
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Old 09-12-2022, 08:38 PM   #61
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You have summed up how I feel 100%. Next Friday Fate the Winx Saga season 2 comes out and that it what I'm excited for and will be watching. If I still feel like it, then I'll come back to RoP.
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Old 09-15-2022, 06:00 AM   #62
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I take it then that your objections to the depiction of Galadriel are based on two points: that Tolkien never said she was a swordsman and that swordsmanship and fighting diminish femininity.
Yes.

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Both of these points can be rather easily dismissed. First of all, Galadriel was not an original character in the Silm. She appeared first in LotR and then Tolkien himself had to back write her into the mythology. This situation caused many confusions, as Christopher Tolkien himself noted in "Unfinished Tales": "There is no part of the history of Middle-earth more full of problems than the story of Galadriel and Celeborn, and it must be admitted that there are severe inconsistencies 'embedded in the traditions': CT calls this a "continual refashioning". (UT294). The chapter "The History of Galadriel and Celborn" recounts those many inconsistencies and refashionings. This is just one example of how Tolkien's efforts at worldbuilding worked against his efforts at storytelling. So it is hardly a grievous error or wrong for subsequent writers to try to flesh out earlier characteristics of Galadriel. After all, CT himself recounts that only after her desire for "the Ring of Power and the dominion of Middle-earth" were fulfilled did she turn away from those desires towards wisdom (P.298UT). CT also uses "fight" several times to describe her early actions in a context which could easily include swordsmanship or military tactics at least. It is not beyond possibility that the "athleticism" ascribed to Galadriel could have included martial arts.
"Could" doesn't mean "did," like "can" doesn't mean "should," as in the logic you used here.

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She is also referred to as of "Amazon disposition" (Letter 348). The Amazons were well known figures in Greek mythology of women (cf. Penthesilea) who were renown for physical fighting. And there are many more female figures in Northern mythology and literature who were fighters, particularly the "giantesses" (how many times are we told how great Galadriel's stature was?) Hildiganner, Brana, Yma, Githr. Then in Britain's own history there is the famous Boudicca. Then there are several woman in the Bible known for killing enemies, including decapitation. Is their womanhood diminished?
The fact that they can be named shows how few they are in history. Yet it's a silly trope pushed by modern media for the last 30+ years. One people seemingly can't even recognize as a trope, and will go to the mattresses to shoehorn into disbelief suspension.

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Is Eowyn's womanhood diminished by her taking up concealment? Even if Tolkien does retract her desire for fighting, turning her into a domestic healer of sorts, that does not change the fact that with a sword she slew the Witch King. She is certainly attractive enough to earn Faramir's attention.

Neither of your arguments hold water, the latter in particular is mere opinion.
Ah, as opposed to your non-opinion.

Having one "shieldmaiden" among about 300 male, warrior/fighter characters seems to fit the demographics/statistics. Everyone should have stopped there, instead of pushing the notion of backflipping sword gymnast, Galadriel.
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Old 09-15-2022, 04:53 PM   #63
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Huinsoron, out of all the discussions here about Galadrien, I thought this comparison would best suit your thread on the first episode. My thanks to the Downer formerly known as Lush for bringing the second image to my attention. And sorry for the sizes but with limited time for internet today I could not find smaller ones.

Galadriel with the elven helmets from RoP.



And this painting by the Russian artist Vasily Vereshchagin, "The Apotheosis of War". The 19th C painting is famous for its alleged criticism of the Russian military; it and a second painting by Vereshchagin were not allowed in a Moscow exhibit.



I leave comments to any who might wish to interpret the conjunction.
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