The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-24-2002, 10:04 PM   #1
twinkle
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: my little blooming garden
Posts: 45
twinkle has just left Hobbiton.
Sting Elven children

hi all....
since i am also a newbie to this site i'm not particularly sure wether this subject goes here or is even a subject per se....
this just interests me and i was wondering if some of you could fill me in.....
i only read the hobbit and lotr and just listening to deeper discussions(when they occur)in chat, more and more questions pop into my head......one of them is this:
elven children....seeing as though elves are immortal, how is the timeline for their physical maturity......are elven "toddlers" ever mentioned in any of tolkiens books?
would really like to know how they run through the stages from infancy to adulthood.....
who rears the children? would their childhoods and their care have been similar to our middle ages? male children fostered and such?
maybe not a "deep" discussion, but i hope a worthwhile one?
__________________
“For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomable at the foundations of the Earth.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion
twinkle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2002, 10:29 PM   #2
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

I have not read the Silmarilian either so maybe I'm not all that qualified to answer your question, but hey, I got here first! Ha ha ha. The Elves,with few exceptions, by the time of Lotr books, don't have children because they are the elder race and leaving Middle Earth. In the earlier ages, they did have children and rear them much as we do.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2002, 10:32 PM   #3
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

Oh, and Welcome to the Barrow-Downs, Twinkle. Named after your favorite star? Enjoy your time here. Everyone is very friendly.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2002, 02:06 PM   #4
Orald
Shadow of Malice
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
Orald has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orald Send a message via Yahoo to Orald
Sting

IIRC Elves mature around the age of 50, and do not age much after that. Although some, like Cirdan, who are very old, and remained in ME so long, start to weary of the world and age, growing a beard and such.
Orald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2002, 08:07 PM   #5
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,650
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Thumbs up

Quote:
Wisdom is the reward you get for a lifetime of listening when you’d have preferred to talk
Nice sig Durelen.

You wouldn't happen to remember where it says 50 years would you? I thought that it was about 50 years but I could not remember where I saw it.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2002, 02:58 AM   #6
Orald
Shadow of Malice
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: right behind you
Posts: 843
Orald has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orald Send a message via Yahoo to Orald
Sting

I don't have any of my books with me right now to say for sure, but I would have to say Quendi and Eldar. I will check on it for you though.
Orald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2002, 02:54 PM   #7
Nufaciel
Wight
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 133
Nufaciel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Hi! I'm a newbie to this site, but I do have the answer to where you can find the info you're looking for. It's in Morgoth's Ring, starting on page 209.
__________________
Member of Pervy Elf Fanciers Anonymous...I need professional help.
Nufaciel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2002, 03:53 PM   #8
firncristwen
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The light-swept paths of imagination
Posts: 15
firncristwen has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Aww! I keep picturing little Legolas and Haldir :-)
__________________
'For many life is only the border of a
terrible dream; shall we pass, I wonder?'
...from "Quest in the Blue"
firncristwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2002, 11:32 PM   #9
Birdland
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto
Posts: 1,757
Birdland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I wonder how baby elves would act? Would they drool and need their elven nappies changed? Would they go through the Terrible Twos? (or Twenties?)

Or maybe they come straight out of the womb all wise and other-worldly, like that kid in "Dune" did.

Hard to image what a baby elf would be like, but I bet they're a handful. Otherwise, why would you live for 6000 years, and only have one or two kids?
Birdland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2002, 11:55 PM   #10
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Sting

LOL! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'll bet they WERE a handful! I can imagine Elladan and Elrohir coming home with their little bows in hand... "YOU tell him", "NO, YOU tell him" "Tell me what?" Father Elrond says. "Elrohir shot down another eagle!" "Well YOU told me to!!" [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2002, 01:08 PM   #11
twinkle
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: my little blooming garden
Posts: 45
twinkle has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Originally posted by Raefindel:
<STRONG>Oh, and Welcome to the Barrow-Downs, Twinkle. Named after your favorite star? Enjoy your time here. Everyone is very friendly.</STRONG>
thank you raefindel for your welcome and your response...
not named after my favorite star i'm afraid, yet after the everpresent twinkle in my eye....i have a mischievous streak a mile long [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

it sounds to me after the posts i have read so far that there is not much written on the subject of my original message....
at least i know now that physical maturity comes around 50 yrs of age, but i also wonder if elven children were otherworldly from birth as birdland does.....
alas i will have to cling to my imagination a bit further....but that is also a nice place to be.....

-twinkle
__________________
“For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomable at the foundations of the Earth.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion
twinkle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2002, 03:05 PM   #12
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,650
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Thumbs up

Durelen, and Nufaciel
Thank you, I knew it was around somewhere. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Quote:
it sounds to me after the posts i have read so far that there is not much written on the subject of my original message....
After a while it gets to be like second nature. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2002, 10:34 AM   #13
Gayahithwen
Wight
 
Gayahithwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The chat-room.
Posts: 243
Gayahithwen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gayahithwen Send a message via MSN to Gayahithwen Send a message via Yahoo to Gayahithwen
Sting

Elven children.. yeah, the thought is now in my mind.. arrrrggghhh.. but just one idea:
Galadriel had four brothers.. and if I'm not toally wrong, there are more bigsized families.. so it can't be that bad.. maybe they are just trying not to be part of the population growth to much? Family planning?

Besides, can you imagine a pregnant elf? I know, the idea is frustration once it gets into your mind, but think about it...
__________________
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.
Gayahithwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2002, 10:33 PM   #14
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Boots

Elves lived such long lives, Well They are immortal, that if they had children throughout their "childbearing years" like we do they would likely have scores of children and the world would be dominated by Elves.
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2002, 10:08 AM   #15
Gayahithwen
Wight
 
Gayahithwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The chat-room.
Posts: 243
Gayahithwen has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Gayahithwen Send a message via MSN to Gayahithwen Send a message via Yahoo to Gayahithwen
Sting

I just think I came up with the final solution why elves doesn't have that many children.. Since elves doesn't sleep, they can't have beds, can they?? So it would only be on somehow rare occasions there was a possibility for them to.. well, you know.. ^_^ if you don't sleep, just wander around in the woods, looking at beautiful things, then I don't think it would be so many times alone with the one you love, will they??

Oh, now I'm just becoming silly because I'm suffering from a big lack of sleep, so please don't care about me.. if it wasn't for the fact that I had allready written so much I would just delete this, but now I am tired anyway.. Please don't kill me if you don't like my idea.. ^_^
__________________
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.
Gayahithwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2002, 01:57 PM   #16
Aralaithiel
Ghost Eldaran Queen
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
Posts: 353
Aralaithiel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

Thanks for that image of Elladan & Elrohir, Raefindel! I can just picture the look on Elrond's face!! LOL! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Oh, and what's wrong with being dominated by Elves?!?!?! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I am the High Queen of the Eldar, you know!!
__________________
A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"
Aralaithiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2002, 08:07 PM   #17
Raefindel
Sword of the Spirit
 
Raefindel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,325
Raefindel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Raefindel
Eye

Can't really take the credit, Birdland inspired me! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
__________________
Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1
Raefindel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2005, 06:12 AM   #18
Amanaduial the archer
Shadow of Starlight
 
Amanaduial the archer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: dancing among the ledgerlines...
Posts: 2,397
Amanaduial the archer has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Amanaduial the archer
Silmaril

Bringing up this topic again rather than make a new one (ah, see my halo shine...) although it would probably fit better in Novices and Newcomers...

Just wanting to clarify a few things for the purposes of an RPG character:

When you say elves 'mature' at 50 years, would you mean in the same way that humans mature at about 18 years old (in theory)? Would this be when they were fully grown, or would it before then? If so, at what sort of pace would childhood go - would it just be like a human childhood but slowed down to less than half the speed?

Any answers would be most helpful...
__________________
I am what I was, a harmless little devil
Amanaduial the archer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2005, 08:33 AM   #19
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,615
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
davem just recently quoted the relevant answer to this question on The Aging of Elves, post #10. Hope that helps!
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2005, 04:54 PM   #20
VanimaEdhel
Etheral Enchantress
 
VanimaEdhel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wellesley College!
Posts: 1,473
VanimaEdhel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to VanimaEdhel Send a message via MSN to VanimaEdhel
Silmaril

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raefindel
Elves lived such long lives, Well They are immortal, that if they had children throughout their "childbearing years" like we do they would likely have scores of children and the world would be dominated by Elves.
That is a curious question - obviously by the Third Age, the Elves began to leave off having children, but you would have thought that, even given that Elves only had a few children each, it would have gotten more crowded than it did. The average Elf seemed to have two or three children. Since most parents did not die, that leaves the children and the adults. After just a few generations - even giving, say, a few hundred years of a gap between birth and eventual procreation of the children themselves - it starts to get a bit crowded.
__________________
"I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes
VanimaEdhel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2005, 06:29 PM   #21
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,257
Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Formendacil is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel
That is a curious question - obviously by the Third Age, the Elves began to leave off having children, but you would have thought that, even given that Elves only had a few children each, it would have gotten more crowded than it did. The average Elf seemed to have two or three children. Since most parents did not die, that leaves the children and the adults. After just a few generations - even giving, say, a few hundred years of a gap between birth and eventual procreation of the children themselves - it starts to get a bit crowded.
Who knows what it was like in Valinor or Eressea (but they had plenty of room there, I wager), but in Middle-earth there was no net growth, I think, only net loss.

The number of Elves being born was probably only slightly ahead of or equal to the number of Elves dying. After all, the Elves of Lindon and Rivendell kept getting embroiled in the Angmar/Arnor wars- even the Lorien folk joined in a couple times. The Elves of Lorien and Mirkwood, especially the Mirkwood ones, were constantly quarrelling with Dul Guldor. Lothlorien was severely endangered at the time of the Balrog's awakening, and the time of the Dwarves fleeing from Moria.

That's just deaths. On top of that one has to remember the steady, constant trickle of Elves to the West.

I have no idea what the situation was like there, but in Middle-earth it was not one of an Elvish population boom.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2005, 04:10 AM   #22
narfforc
The Dank-lord Sourone
 
narfforc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Asfahawayasikan
Posts: 1,303
narfforc is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Elured and Elurin are called the young sons of Dior. Elurin means, In Remembrance of Elu (Thingol). Dior leaves Lanthir Lamath for Menegroth with his family, upon hearing of the death of Thingol. I do not know the time difference between these two events, but if Diors younger son is named in remembrance of King Thingol, then he must have been very young indeed. I also think that when the servents of Celegorm left the sons to starve in the forest, these children are incabable of looking after themselves, an older elven prince would have felt at home in any wood/forest
narfforc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:54 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.