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Old 01-16-2007, 03:27 PM   #1
Legate of Amon Lanc
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Eye Lost Tale of a Lost Dwarven Tribe and Thranduil?

I was just reading the Hobbit and I came upon a very interesting part. At the end of Chapter 8: Flies and Spiders, we are introduced to the Silvan Elves who captured Thorin. We learn about their king (later named as Thranduil, father of Legolas, in LotR) and apart from that we learn about his only weakness which was that he liked beautiful (especially silver) treasures, we also read an interesting tale about why he didn't like the dwarves. If you are interested, read with me:
Quote:
So to the cave they dragged Thorin-not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy. In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems; and though his hoard was rich, he was ever eager for more, since he had not yet as great a treasure as other elf-lords of old. His people neither mined nor worked metals or jewels, nor did they bother much with trade or with tilling the earth. All this was well known to every dwarf, though Thorin's family had had nothing to do with the old quarrel I have spoken of. Consequently Thorin was angry at their treatment of him, when they took their spell off him and he came to his senses; and also he was determined that no word of gold or jewels should be dragged out of him.
"In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure," it is said. Possibly as you might as well, the first thing I thought of were the Silmarils, that well-known history of Thingol being killed by the dwarves of Nogrod and the trouble afterwards. It seems that this is the story we are told here. Except for...
...except for that we have just the name "elf-king" here for the participant, and it looks very much like that only one, not two kings are mentioned in this tale. And this would be "our" king = Thranduil. Just look at the text where the words "(the!) elf-king" are used. If you put the word "Thingol" somewhere in the text, it wouldn't make sense (well, unless it was actually Thingol who captured Thorin&co.!!! ). This actually implies the idea that we are not re-told the tale of Thingol, but that we are told another, maybe similar, tale of Thranduil and some dwarven tribe (history repeating itself? It wouldn't be for the first time! Beren&Lúthien, Aragorn&Arwen, for example...). Maybe he had had some pacts with those enigmatic dwarves from the Grey Mountains (not Durin's folk, mind you!).
So, has anyone any ideas or evidencies which might bring more light to this matter? Have we just discovered an untold tale? Join the quest for truth!
How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul? Do Balrogs have wings? Do the Barrow-wights ever wash their legs? (okay, I'm leaving this one out, might get a lil bit touchy!) WAS THRANDUIL THINGOL???

But seriously!
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:57 PM   #2
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This could be.
We know Thranduil left Lindon sometime before the year 1000 of the Second Age, so he might have already been alive during the First, and might have also come in contact with Dwarves of the Blue Mountains.
This is the best explanation I can find, since it is made clear that Durin's folk was not involved, so if it involved Thranduil this took place before he left Lindon.

Still, it could also be that Tolkien made a not so appropriate choice of words.
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Old 01-16-2007, 05:44 PM   #3
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I have to admit that the wording there is rather curious.

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Maybe he had had some pacts with those enigmatic dwarves from the Grey Mountains (not Durin's folk, mind you!).
The only dwarves we know about in the Grey Mountains were Durin's Folk. I don't think there is any traction there.

Hmmm...this one requires more pondering.
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Old 01-17-2007, 01:03 AM   #4
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I think that Tolkien was probably thinking of Thingol and that story when he wrote it, never realizing that nearly seventy years later, we'd be puzzling about it on a website, never realizing that the Silmarillion and the HObbit would both be published and be part of the same "history."

Inside the world of Middle-earth itself I would explain it in one of two ways: 1. There IS a "lost"(or never-written) story regarding Thranduil and some non-Durin-type Dwarves.

2. The original "writer" of the Hobbit(Bilbo--or as I call him, Ol' Bilb-- himself) was thinking af Thingol and got his stories muddled up(he may have heard the story of Thingol and the Dwarves from Thranduil and just gotten confused) because at the time of writing he wasn't such a scholar of the First Age as he later became.

I suppose I like the first explanation better--that at some point Thranduil did have some conflict with non-Long-beard Dwarves of the Grey Mountains, and this tiny reference is all we hear about it: it could have been one of the many minor things that happened in the Third Age(or even the Second, I suppose) that aren't included in the "translator's" abridged offering of the Tale of Years.
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Old 01-17-2007, 06:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Břicho
I think that Tolkien was probably thinking of Thingol and that story when he wrote it, never realizing that nearly seventy years later
Shhh! Of course I know, but this is not what a hardcore Tolkien fan accepts

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Originally Posted by Břicho
Inside the world of Middle-earth itself I would explain it in one of two ways:
NOW this is what I call constructive thinking After all, "what's written is given" - Bilbo has written this book and we have to find out why he wrote what he wrote. All your points on that are quite logical, I think. The thing is, can we find something which might narrow down our list of possibilities? Some evidence from another source, about the Dwarves, about Thranduil, about the job he had them to do, or evidence that Thranduil could have never made contact with any Dwarves in the Grey Mountains?
Do you think Bilbo was really yet "uneducated" when writing the Red Book? He made revisions of it, from time to time, I'm quite sure (take just the title, he changed it about five times). And he was long enough in Rivendell to correct the things he was not able to understand first. An example of something similar in another topic: he, for example, rewrote the original poem of a mariner to the form we hear in Rivendell, where he made clear all the details and that it was about Eärendil.

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The only dwarves we know about in the Grey Mountains were Durin's Folk. I don't think there is any traction there.
Well, there was this mysterious tribe who had troubles with Scatha and Fram sent them the necklace of dragon teeth or what it was. We do not see if they were of Durin's folk, or do we? (calling experts... Kuruharan??? )
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:57 PM   #6
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Well, there was this mysterious tribe who had troubles with Scatha and Fram sent them the necklace of dragon teeth or what it was. We do not see if they were of Durin's folk, or do we?
Process of elimination tells us they had to be Durin's Folk. The Misty and Grey Mountains were far out of the range of any other type.
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Old 01-18-2007, 03:57 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Kuruharan
Process of elimination tells us they had to be Durin's Folk. The Misty and Grey Mountains were far out of the range of any other type.
Really? Are you sure? I'm sorry, but I'm not so good expert in the Dwarves' history - could you, please, summarize here briefly what was the situation with the Dwarven tribes' placement (in general, not all their moves like from Moria to Erebor, just wherever they were at least at one time)? Or at least if you could provide me with a link to some topic where it was discussed, if such one exists, but quick sum would be as well fine.
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:21 AM   #8
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I'll stand in for Kuru.... I'm using a Kuru-esque avatar, so that'll be permissible, methinks.

Starting in the First Age, each of the seven houses of Dwarves had a sort of "mountain range" they called home. Starting in the west, we have:

The Firebeards and the Broadbeams, or the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, in the Blue Mountains. These are the Dwarves we see in the Silmarillion. The Dwarves of Nogrod were decimated by the Elves, after their major quarrel with Thingol, and both mansions suffered greatly in the breaking of Beleriand at end of the First Age. The survivors (mostly from Belegost), mainly moved eastwards to Khazad-dûm, and joined the people of Durin. The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, in later ages, were mostly Dwarves of Durin's race who moved back into the area after troubles in Moria and Erebor.

The Longbeards, or people of Durin, dwelt in Moria in the Misty Mountains. In their early years they occupied all the Misty Mountains, including Mt. Gundabad, as well as eastwards to the Iron Hills, where they would continue to have a presence until the Fourth Age, at least. After the loss of Khazad-dûm in the mid-3rd Age, the Longbeards removed to Erebor, by way of the Grey Mountains. From their ancestral domination of the mountains around the Wilderland, and from this time of wandering, it is clear that any Dwarves in the Grey Mountains would of necessity have been Longbeards (and the intermingled Dwarves of Belegost descent, by this time).

East of the Iron Hills, we know little of the last four houses of Dwarves. Nearer to the Iron Hills dwelt the Ironfists and the Stiffbeards, and furthest away dwelt the Blacklocks and the Stonefoots. We know nothing of their locations save that they were at distances "as great or great than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad". These Dwarves seem the most likely to have provided the few Dwarves that served with Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance, and also provided aid to the Longbeards in the days of Thraín II, at the Battle of Azanulbizar. They also are referenced, most likely, in the "The Shadow of the Past":

Quote:
There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits' chief source of news from distant parts---if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and the Land of Mordor.
--emphasis mine.

Up to the italicised line, when Tolkien talks of dwarves using the East-West Road, he would mostly be talking of the Longbeards, who had resettled those mines in the Blue Mountains, and who would have been travelling back and forth to Erebor (or in earlier times, Moria). However, the line that I have italicised clearly deals with new, different Dwarves "of far countries", who are clearly not the Longbeards familiar to the Hobbits. Coming from east of the Iron Hills, they fit both the profile of "strange Dwarves" and would certainly have been in lands being once again dominated by Sauron.

So, there you have it: my "short" discursus on the different Dwarves and their homes. The above is all taken (with the exception of the Fellowship of the Ring quote) from HoME vol. XII The Peoples of Middle-Earth, from the essay entitled "Of Dwarves and Men". It dates to around the time Tolkien was working on the Appendices, during the publication of the LotR, and is, as I recall, never contradicted in a later statement, and can be taken as pretty much canonical.
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Old 01-18-2007, 12:41 PM   #9
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Oh, really thank you, Formendacil. I originally thought that there could have been some tribe in the Grey Mountains, you know, like in the Blue mts. the tribes were in pair, there could've been someone with the Durin's folk...

Why I have thought that there were some Dwarves apart from Durin's folk in the Grey Mountains: I think that Longbeards started to settle in there around 1980-2210. According to the Appendices:
Quote:
1981 Náin I slain. The Dwarves flee from Moria.
2210 Thorin I leaves Erebor and goes north to the Grey Mountains, where most of the remnants of Durin's Folk are now gathering.
But Scatha the Worm was killed by Fram son of Frumgar. We don't know exactly the dates of his birth and death, but we know when his father Frumgar led Éotheod to the north:
Quote:
1977 Frumgar leads the Éothéod into the North.
It is quite possible that Frumgar was in his best years at that time, and it would seem logical that Fram might have been born after the Éothéod settled down in the new lands. So if Fram was born around, let's say, 1980, I'd guess him killing Scatha between 2200 and 2220 (possibly later than earlier). But this would make 40 years at best from when the first, really probably only few Dwarves, came to Ered Mithrin. Do you think there was enough time for the Dwarves to settle down, acquire a treasure and then be robbed by Scatha of that treasure (which would include probably eating some of the Dwarves)? Of course, they could have brought some treasure with them from Moria... well, after all, 40 years is a long period... but anyway, what I wanted to suggest was that the dwarven treasure Scatha had could have predated the settlement of fugitive Moria-tribe(s), thus, come from some other Dwarves who were in the area before?

And those Ironfists and Stiffbeards you mention, couldn't they have lived close enough to make contact with Thranduil? If you say "as far as Gundabad from Blue mts. or even further", the least possible distance is about 600 miles, which is about the same distance as from Gundabad to the eastern end of the Iron Hills. Ironfists???

Just by the way, where is that information about Dwarven tribes available? It is in HoME? Where?
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:54 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc
So if Fram was born around, let's say, 1980, I'd guess him killing Scatha between 2200 and 2220 (possibly later than earlier). But this would make 40 years at best from when the first, really probably only few Dwarves, came to Ered Mithrin.
Actually Fram would probably not be alive in TA 2200, more like TA 2000 which means it would be approximately 200 years before Longbeard Dwarves are supposed to be settling in the Grey Mountains.

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Old 01-18-2007, 02:58 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ghazi
Actually Fram would probably not be alive in TA 2200, more like TA 2000 which means it would be approximately 200 years before Longbeard Dwarves are supposed to be settling in the Grey Mountains.
Ah! Thanks, Ghazi! Thanks really very much! I overlooked the other "2" in the number!!! I felt so shaken with Kuru&Form in that the dwarves must've been already there so that I suspected it being at the same time... (I was never too strong in maths anyway ) So here you see it: a plot hole! This is what I originally had in mind: this is the "mysterious tribe" I was talking about! I wondered when I wrote the previous post that the argument is not as strong as it seemed to me in revision... yeah, that's it! Explain, dwarven loremasters!
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:56 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc
Just by the way, where is that information about Dwarven tribes available? It is in HoME? Where?
Yup. As I said at the end of my (longer than need be) post:

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Originally Posted by Formendacil
The above is all taken (with the exception of the Fellowship of the Ring quote) from HoME vol. XII The Peoples of Middle-Earth, from the essay entitled "Of Dwarves and Men". It dates to around the time Tolkien was working on the Appendices, during the publication of the LotR, and is, as I recall, never contradicted in a later statement, and can be taken as pretty much canonical.
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Old 01-20-2007, 09:57 AM   #13
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it would be approximately 200 years before Longbeard Dwarves are supposed to be settling in the Grey Mountains.
It is worth noting that it says the Grey Mountains were "little explored" not "unexplored." I suspect that, considering their proximity to Gundabad, a few dwarves had probably lived out there for thousands of years.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:33 PM   #14
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Sorry to say this, but your theory is wrong.
Tolkien himself says about the Hobbit in letter 257:

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The Hobbit was not intended to have anything to do with it...It had no necessary connexion with the 'mythology', but naturally became attracted towards this dominant construction in my mind, causing the tale to become larger and more heroic as it proceeded. Even so it could really stand quite apart, except for the references (unnecesssary, though they give an impression of historical depth) to the Fall of Gondolin..and the quarrel of King Thingol, Luthien's father, with the Dwarves.
~ my emphasis

He himself says that this was only a reference to the, at that time, unfinished story of Thingol and the Dwarves.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:47 PM   #15
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*cries*

Okay, I knew that, but I at least supposed that there might be no proof... I hoped that we might find some evidence, even little, which I could use to support my theory...

But nevertheless! This means one thing: the Red Book of Westmarch, written by honorable Mr. Bilbo Baggins himself, puts forward clear evidence that THRANDUIL WAS THINGOL!!!

mwahahahaha...

And who gets the Nobel prize? (hint hint) Really, show me any more shocking find! (not mentioning, for the Legolas fans, that this means Leggy was Lúthien's brother!)
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Old 01-26-2007, 01:14 AM   #16
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Interesting, and evidently it means that Thingol was freed from Mandos and sent back (just like Glorfindel, and probably at the same time), but chose to go incongito, as presumably it wouldn't do to go shouting around who he really was on account of some of the troubles he'd caused during the first.

But where does that leave Oropher? I await a further theory...
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