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Old 06-22-2002, 10:37 AM   #1
NicktheOrc
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Ring The 21st Ring of Power?

I am here to discuss the powers of the 21st Ring of Power, which Saruman made himself. What powers did it have and why did he make it? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
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Old 06-22-2002, 10:40 AM   #2
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Ring

It had no powers at all! Saruman made it because he was jealous of Sauron, but he couldn't decide what color to make it, so he made it rainbow-colored, and that's where he got Saruman of many colors! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 06-22-2002, 01:54 PM   #3
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Well first off it never said that Saruman's ring was rainbow colored. Saruman's cloak shimmered and appeared to take on different colors, that is where the Saruman of many colors title comes from. As for his ring, Tolkien never said anything about it, to my knowledge at least. I've always believed that it would have helped Saruman control his army of orcs and half orcs. Sort of like a miniature One Ring. Tolkien stated that it took a tremendous amount of power out of Melkor and Sauron to control their armies and that the One Ring assisted Sauron in controling his armies by enhancing his power to dominate others. It makes sense to me that Saruman would want to imitate Sauron. I think that Saruman would have had the power to make such a ring, he was after all, a maia of Aule, just like Sauron. Saruman's ring would have undoubtedly been much weaker than the One Ring, but still useful. Also in the forward to The Lord of the Rings (while denying that his work was a political allegory) Tolkien states that if his book would have been an allegory for World War Two one of the wise would have claimed the Ring for themselves and challenged Sauron. In the ensuing battle Saruman would have gained the knowledge to create his own great Ring. Both sides would have enslaved Hobbits, and there would have been a great deal more destruction. It seems plausible that Saruman’s ring was an attempt to create a great ring, which probably failed, but was still useful.

[ June 22, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
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Old 06-23-2002, 07:13 AM   #4
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Silmaril

Saruman had another ring? Did I miss something here? And rainbow coloured? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]
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Old 06-23-2002, 07:41 AM   #5
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See Gandalf's description of his capture by Saruman in The Council of Elrond. When Gandalf approaches the steps of the Orthanc he notices that Saruman is wearing a ring. Then later Saruman says he is no longer Saruman the White, but Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours. The ring was not described as rainbow colored.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]
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Old 06-23-2002, 11:53 AM   #6
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Saruman did have a ring. When I read this the first time I thought it was pretty cool. I don't think it had any powers, Maybe it enhances his powers over orcs, or what gives him his Color.
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Old 06-24-2002, 02:09 PM   #7
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Since Saruman made the ring himself, it was probably intended to control the people's surrounding Orthanc (Orcs, etc.). Then again, if the ring didn't have any power, then it was just used to mimic the One Ring I believe.
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Old 06-24-2002, 02:16 PM   #8
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You guys are probably right about Saruman imitating Sauron, just like Orthanc was an imitation of Barad-dur. But think of the havoc Saruman could have created with a Ring equal in power to Sauron's. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
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Old 06-24-2002, 03:06 PM   #9
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Tolkien

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Since when did Saruman have a ring??
Gandalf tells of it at the Council of Elrond, about how Saruman ensnares him and locks him in the Tower.
Quote:
You guys are probably right about Saruman imitating Sauron, just like Orthanc was an imitation of Barad-dur. But think of the havoc Saruman could have created with a Ring equal in power to Sauron's.
Orthanc was not built by Saruman as an imitation of Baradur. It was Built by the Dunedain of Gondor before the Last Alliance. Saruman doesn't move in until TA 2759, and takes it for his own and fortifies it in TA 2953.
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Old 06-24-2002, 04:34 PM   #10
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Silmaril

Saruman was working on an imitation on Barad-Dur. Since i don't have LOTR in hand i can't quote, but Gandalf said something about how Saruman was working on something he thought great, but all it was was a imitation of Barad-Dur.
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Old 06-24-2002, 04:49 PM   #11
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Ring

So Saruman has a ring, so what? Can't people just have rings without others making a big deal out of it?
Don't you people have rings? Is that abnormal?
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Old 06-25-2002, 06:41 AM   #12
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I know that the Dunedains built Orthanc, but Saruman made it an imitation of Barad-dur, with forges and fortifications. Somewhere in the LOTR it is stated, that Isengard was like a slave unknowingly imitating his master, which I think is a good picture of Barad-dur versus Orthanc.
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:41 PM   #13
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Sting

I was just joking about the rainbow colors! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Old 06-26-2002, 03:53 AM   #14
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Sting

Ivorwen, I doubt Saruman would have made a ring for no other reason than to look fashionable. I agree with Thingol here completely. The ring was used to give him power to control his army, just as Saurons was.

Gryphon Hall, Sarumans orcs couldn't withstand the light because of Sarumans ring. They were bred with men so that they were really half orc and half man. That is why they were greater in size than Saurons orcs (Orcs are naturally shorter than men) and were able to withstand sunlight, even though they didn't like it.

I think you guys should read previous posts more closely. Thingol explained things very well early in the thread, but there were still some posts later on that showed signs of confusion and misinterpretation. That's just a little advice.

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ]

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Elendur ]
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Old 06-29-2002, 02:32 AM   #15
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Sting

Well let's look at the nature of rings in Tolkien's works.

Barahir had a ring that Beren used to show Finrod his connection with him. This ring was not neccessarily a ring of power, but it did serve a purpose.

So would Saruman's ring be a ring of power? Or could it possibly be more a symbolic ring? It's obvious that Saruman was imitating Sauron a little, making orcs and turning Isengard into hell on earth, so why not try to imitate a ring.

It's plausable to think that in making this ring, Saruman is showing that he believes he will one day own the one ring. I suppose an analogy would be... drawing pictures of a car you one day wish to own.

Just a thought.
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Old 07-01-2002, 03:09 PM   #16
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saruman had a ring???????? the 21st ring???
but im the 21st ring [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] oh well... im the 22nd ring of power! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] boo saruman!
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Old 07-01-2002, 03:57 PM   #17
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I also believe that Saruman was imitating Sauron. It's obvious that he had a long curiosity about the dark arts, which gradually turned into desire for power.

Here's a question. Both Saruman and Sauron were originally of the people of Aule. I know that Sauron was the probably the mightiest of the Maiar, but how is it that his craft is so far beyond Saruman's? They were both about the same age. Saruman stayed in Valinor while Sauron was in Middle Earth with Melkor. More than likely, that gave Saruman more time in the presence of Aule. It seems that he would learn more of forging from Aule than from studying Sauron evil from a distance. Was it that Sauron invented the lore of Rings of Power? or was it that Saruman did not really become interested in rings until coming to middle earth?
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Old 07-01-2002, 04:04 PM   #18
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Question

For the millionth time people, Saruman was never always evil! At one point he was good and wise! He became consumed, how I see it, into the Dark when he looked into the palantir. Denethor, too, became consumed as well. And I will spare you the trouble of reading an essay, so I'll end there.
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Old 07-01-2002, 04:46 PM   #19
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Saruman made a ring ? I had no idea... i must be stupid or totally out of it lol :P
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Old 07-09-2002, 05:37 PM   #20
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Silmaril

Like GreatWarg said, Saruman wasn't always evil so coudn't he have gotten the ring when he was good, like Gandalf has his?
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Old 07-09-2002, 07:21 PM   #21
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Silmaril

Sauron was also not the most powerful Maiar, just so you know...
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Old 07-09-2002, 07:32 PM   #22
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Saruman made a ring ? I had no idea... i must be stupid or totally out of it lol
I feel the same way?!?!?! [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
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Old 07-09-2002, 07:41 PM   #23
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Silmaril

Ditto here! I've read the book more than once, how come I didn't pick that up!? Can someone explain where it states that he had a ring?
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Old 07-09-2002, 08:15 PM   #24
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If one reads some of the posts in the thread one would find that where to find the information about Saruman's ring has already been given. Also, it is possible that Saruman got his ring before he turned evil, but we have the statment by Saruman that he was a ring maker. Seems likely that the ring that Saruman held was of Saruman's make.
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Old 07-09-2002, 08:37 PM   #25
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'But I rode to Orthanc, and came to the stair of Saruman; and there he met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger.
That is the only reference I have been able to find. Considering how brief it truly is, it's not surprising that many people (myself included) have missed it during their readings.
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Old 07-09-2002, 09:12 PM   #26
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I don't think "Saruman of Many Colours" came from his robe. I think he adopted the "Many Colours" motif to indicate his plans for universal domination or his assumption of the powers not granted to Istari (who only had four colors), and the robe was merely an affectation indicating this.

If Saruman's ring were a power object, I think the good guys would've shown more concern about it. As far as we know, no one tried to take the ring from him, so it wasn't terribly important. (Or Gandalf forgot to tell Treebeard, "Don't let Saruman go without divesting him of his ring!")

I'm kind of shocked that so many people missed the fact that Saruman made a ring. I've only read the book once, and that was one of the stand-out moments. "He wore a ring on his finger," was the perfect line to establish what was about to happen. Saruman obviously didn't normally wear rings, or else Gandalf wouldn't have mentioned the ring -- what does this outward change foreshadow?
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Old 07-09-2002, 09:43 PM   #27
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Quote:
Here's a question. Both Saruman and Sauron were originally of the people of Aule. I know that Sauron was the probably the mightiest of the Maiar, but how is it that his craft is so far beyond Saruman's? They were both about the same age. Saruman stayed in Valinor while Sauron was in Middle Earth with Melkor. More than likely, that gave Saruman more time in the presence of Aule. It seems that he would learn more of forging from Aule than from studying Sauron evil from a distance. Was it that Sauron invented the lore of Rings of Power? or was it that Saruman did not really become interested in rings until coming to middle earth?
ok, i'll try to answer this question. The reason that Sauron's ring forging skills were so advanced beyond Saurons was that Saurin was able to study under Celebrimbor, who's ring-making skills were (probably) only surpassed by his grandfather. Celebrimbor taught sauron every thing he knew, and Saran did not have that oppourtunity

Also, how can you say "I know sauron was probabl the most powerful Maiar" that was never even alluded to in any of the books
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Old 10-24-2002, 03:37 PM   #28
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There are at least 3 other threads on Saruman's Ring, the best(and oldest) can be found here
If you would like to see the others go here, it has links to all the other Saruman's ring threads I know of
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Old 10-24-2002, 03:46 PM   #29
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Tolkien

Is it just me, or does the new board policy of administrators deleting 'fluff' posts apply to some of the posts in this thread. And to this post for that matter.
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Old 10-24-2002, 03:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Saruman made a ring ? I had no idea... i must be stupid or totally out of it lol :P
I feel the same way! I'm new to Tolkien, therefore have just read LOTR once, but somehow I missed the part about Saruman's ring. Now that I think about it, wasn't he wearing a ring in the movie??
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Old 10-24-2002, 10:06 PM   #31
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Ring

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Sarumans orcs couldn't withstand the light because of Sarumans ring. They were bred with men so that they were really half orc and half man. That is why they were greater in size than Saurons orcs (Orcs are naturally shorter than men) and were able to withstand sunlight, even though they didn't like it.
Although Sauruman did cross the races of man and orc, the ones that could withstand sunlight despite the fact they didn't like it were the Uruk-hai which were originally bred by Sauron.
Quote:
The reason that Sauron's ring forging skills were so advanced beyond Saurons was that Saurin was able to study under Celebrimbor, who's ring-making skills were (probably) only surpassed by his grandfather. Celebrimbor taught sauron every thing he knew, and Saran did not have that oppourtunity
The reason that Sauron's skills were greater than Sauruman's weren't because he studied under Celebrimbor, (Sauron in fact taught Celebrimbor about ring making not the other way round), but they were greater because Sauron was taught a lot of what he knew by Melkor. Melkor was at least as good as Aule in making things, but he also knew about domination of others which was the real power behind the rings. Sauron tricked the elves into making them by telling them that they could stop the decay of fading, but the real purpose was domination which is why the ring s were so powerful.
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Old 10-25-2002, 04:12 AM   #32
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First--"He wore a ring on his finger" is one of the most telling character descriptions Tolkien has ever devised. These are seven words that convey both history and character--not only the character being spoken of, but also the character speaking. It's brilliant. I can't believe so many people missed it. But anyway, here's my question in the midst of all this.

Celebrimbor and his people made many rings, some of greater power, some of lesser (Yes, it's even possible that Gollum's grandmother owned one of the earliest of these) Gollum mentions it to Gandalf when he is being interrogated, and who is to say whether there is some grain of truth in something that he says. No where that I found does it mention how many of them there were. As few as a dozen? As many as a thousand? No one knows. Not even Tolkien (at least as much as I've read.)
So, Did Gollum's Grandmother have a ring? Was Saruman's ring (that he WORE)of his own making? Did he make one at all? (I'm guessing, probably yes.) Was it the one he was wearing when he met Gandalf as described in The Council of Elrond? What happened to all the "Minor" rings that Celebrimbor made to practice making the "Great" rings? Just how many rings were there (both major and minor.)
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Old 10-25-2002, 05:36 AM   #33
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Sorry if someone else has said this, but i think the 21st ring of power (or what was to be) was not a ring of power at all. But Saruman wanted it to be. I quote the prefix to Lord of the Rings (Prefix? Preface? the introduction, or the bit before the introduction? Ah you know what i mean) as best as i can remember it:

Quote:
Given time Saruman would have perfected his Lore of Ringmaking and made himself another ring of power
"perfected" suggests he already had some skills, and maybe the ring on his finger was a failed attempt to make a contesting Ring of Power.
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Old 10-27-2002, 04:42 PM   #34
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Is it just incidental that when I look back, as a topic sinks to oblivion I seem to be the person who made one of the last few posts? Is this coincidence or is there a deeper reason behind it? This is probably spam, but the topic is dead now anyway. Sorry its just a tad annoying when you make a point and no-one even acknowledges it.
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Old 12-12-2002, 07:39 PM   #35
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Although Saruman did cross the races of man and orc, the ones that could withstand sunlight despite the fact they didn't like it were the Uruk-hai which were originally bred by Sauron.
Saruman created the Uruk-hai as an improvement on Sauron's Uruk (which are diffirent from Uruk-hai) Uruks were a super race of orcs created by Sauron in the third age. They were larger and stronger than normal orcs. It was the crossing of man and orc(Uruk) that made the Uruk-hai sun resistant. "hai" apparently means "sun proof" because there was a troll-race called the Olog-hai that Sauron created towards the end of the third age. I figure the word originally came from the brand name of an early sun screen (probably around 1000 spf if it was in comon use by orcs) in the black toung. It was probably derived from "kohaidh" which meant protection [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] . By the way, I got all of this (except for the insightful bit of etymology) from Appendix F of LOTR section I:The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age, under Of Other Races.

I already expressed my full views on Saruman's ring and the source of the Istari's power in general in this threadI am not going to repeat it here for fear of being reprimanded for writting lost of long posts saying the same thing and because you can easily just click the link and see it as well as several other good posts on the subject.
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Old 12-12-2002, 09:27 PM   #36
Manwe Sulimo
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Well, since it's here, and since I haven't said anything yet...

There is no possible way that Saruman's ring could be a Ring of Power. Of those, there were only twenty, forged by the Noldor or Sauron himself. Unless the ring Saruman wore was one of the lost Dwarf-Rings, it wasn't a Ring of Power.

He probably made it himself (ergo, "Saruman the Ring-Maker"), but it had no special powers. Saruman's powers were lost when Gandalf broke his staff (since he was killed by Gríma shortly afterwards). The ring was just a petty mockery of Sauron, trying to seem more powerful.

He also obviously made it after he turned evil, since Gandalf saw fit to add that bit into his story; otherwise, everyone in the White Council would've known about it, anyway.
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Old 12-14-2002, 01:01 PM   #37
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Quote:
Saruman's powers were lost when Gandalf broke his staff
Atleast one of his powers was not wholly gone. He still had his soothing, manipulative, and controlling voice. My personal oppinion is that he had put this power into the ring he made and thus amplified it which would explain why his voice was so powerful and why it remained after he lost all his other powers. I explained this view more fully in another post. You can find it by clicking on the link in one of my previous posts in this thread.
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