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Old 07-31-2019, 01:49 PM   #3201
Huinesoron
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Celegorm, Curufin and Orodreth came to mind. They were all ruling Nargothrond at the same time
But all from the same side of the Narog, so that doesn't work.

I realise I'm being quite cagey here, but, like... the entire riddle hangs together. If I over-hint at one line, it'll make the others redundant. It's tricky to balance.

hS

EDIT: Riddle & notes for the new page:

"Okay, so let's go this way:

Take four coins, add another one or two,
A ruler born, a ruler made, a ruler over stream,
Visit York, Lancaster, take a horse and you
Will find in the end a helper's hopeful dream.


Here are some questions that might run through my head if I was seeing this riddle for the first time:

-What coin would you have four of? Why would you add one or two? One or two what?
-What's a ruler? How do you make a ruler? Why would you have three? Is the third one 'over stream' from the other two?
-What do York and Lancaster have in common? What's the connection to a horse?
-Who is the helper? Who or what did they hope for? Is the dream literal?
-Are there any elements in my answers to the above that string together to point at one person, place, or thing in Middle-earth?"
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:00 PM   #3202
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Musings

Is this some sort of triumvirate, where three people shared power?

Is it perchance Phary/Zimraphel/Sauron trio? The former two were rulers in name, but it was Sauron who really had the power; and you could argue that Sauron's realms were located on the other side of a body of water.
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:47 PM   #3203
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Is this some sort of triumvirate, where three people shared power?

Is it perchance Phary/Zimraphel/Sauron trio? The former two were rulers in name, but it was Sauron who really had the power; and you could argue that Sauron's realms were located on the other side of a body of water.
To be honest I don't think any of these three exerted any real power, but the second one probably had the most.

All three had different titles (and we've already established that none of them were royalty).

hS
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:53 PM   #3204
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Can't think of anyone else who ruled concurrently. Unless you mean Faramir, Eomer and Samwise?
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:00 PM   #3205
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Can't think of anyone else who ruled concurrently. Unless you mean Faramir, Eomer and Samwise?
Er... no. Those don't exactly form a natural set, do they?

hS
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Old 07-31-2019, 03:18 PM   #3206
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Then I really don't know. Maybe ruler over stream is Ulmo, ruler of all the water. That would make the other two Tuor and Earendil, prolly.


Or maybe the three men who held power over the three elvish cities (ie. Turin, Tuor and Beren)
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:34 AM   #3207
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Mmm... no.

The first two lines kind of go together, in that they are both describing material attributes of the answer. The third line is cryptic. The fourth line touches on the general character of the answer.

Each of these rulers held a position that existed both before and after them. You have already named (at some point) one of the people who held one of them.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:44 AM   #3208
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At some point during this riddle or at some point in the entire thread?
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:47 AM   #3209
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At some point during this riddle or at some point in the entire thread?
The former. I'm pretty sure every character in Middle-earth, down to "fox, thinking", has been named in this thread at some point.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 03:01 AM   #3210
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Well, you didn't outright say no to Orodreth, so one of the three could be him.
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:00 AM   #3211
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Well, you didn't outright say no to Orodreth, so one of the three could be him.
Orodreth is not one of the three.

I'd rather not give direct yes/nos to individual names, because you could easily just go through each one you've listed. I'll happily say whether a trio is correct, though.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:10 AM   #3212
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Celegorm, Curufin and Thingol?
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:13 AM   #3213
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A ruler born: Celegorm or Curufin
A ruler made: Fingolfin or Thingol
A ruler over stream: Hurin
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:32 AM   #3214
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Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
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Celegorm, Curufin and Thingol?
Quote:
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A ruler born: Celegorm or Curufin
A ruler made: Fingolfin or Thingol
A ruler over stream: Hurin
Nope & nope.

Remember that the 'rulers' line is part of a riddle with a specific answer. The three must, by the structure of the riddle, have a strong connection to a single, specific person-place-or-thing - and a stronger connection than any other possible 'rulers', too. (If you were looking for a Beren/Luthien or Turin link, for instance, I'd surely have included Morgoth in there.)

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:40 AM   #3215
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Then I give up. Someone else can solve it, though I doubt anyone will. Your hints don't narrow it down much, if at all.
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:42 AM   #3216
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Wait, I just had a thought. Goldberry could be a ruler over stream, being the daughter of a River King.
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:43 AM   #3217
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Which would make the other two Tom Bombadil, ruler over the Old Forest, and Sam, the Thain of the Shire.
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Old 08-01-2019, 05:35 AM   #3218
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Which would make the other two Tom Bombadil, ruler over the Old Forest, and Sam, the Thain of the Shire.
Sam is the Mayor of the Shire (technically of Michel Delving), an appointed/elected position. Pippin is the Thain, by right of birth.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 06:03 AM   #3219
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So is it wrong?
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Old 08-01-2019, 06:19 AM   #3220
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So is it wrong?
Goldberry, Bombadil, and Sam are not the three rulers in the riddle.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 06:21 AM   #3221
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Hint please, and I mean one which will narrow this down substantially.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:14 AM   #3222
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Hint please, and I mean one which will narrow this down substantially.
You've had lots of hints, and I suspect you haven't even recognised several of them, but fine:

It's a place.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:33 AM   #3223
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A place consisting of three words, I presume.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:38 AM   #3224
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The helper is Sam, I think
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:45 AM   #3225
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A place consisting of three words, I presume.
No, just one or two.

Quote:
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The helper is Sam, I think
Correct.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:54 AM   #3226
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I think he dreamt about the Grey Havens/Undying lands, where Elves went.
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Old 08-01-2019, 07:55 AM   #3227
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But I don't see how the words referenced form the name of that place.
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Old 08-01-2019, 08:09 AM   #3228
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But I don't see how the words referenced form the name of that place.
Because they don't, because that's not the answer.

Line 3 isn't a true cryptic clue - it's multiple clues to the same answer.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:23 AM   #3229
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'My kingdom for a horse' line comes to mind....
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:02 PM   #3230
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Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
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'My kingdom for a horse' line comes to mind....
It does, and deliberately so, but only as part of the War of the Roses misdirection.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 12:21 PM   #3231
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I read Sam's wiki and TG page and found nothing useful in terms of riddle-solving.
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:06 PM   #3232
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Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
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I read Sam's wiki and TG page and found nothing useful in terms of riddle-solving.
Incorrect. You definitely found at least one relevant fact; you just didn't notice it.

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:08 PM   #3233
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Then I'll comb again.
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:13 PM   #3234
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Well, the only relevant bit I can find is how the Ring tempted him with a great garden.
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:13 PM   #3235
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Then I'll comb again.
I wouldn't bother; you've already said it, too.

(And I gave you a nice big hint in reply that you didn't notice. )

hS
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Old 08-01-2019, 02:46 PM   #3236
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So it's a great garden of some kind?
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Old 08-02-2019, 01:14 AM   #3237
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So it's a great garden of some kind?
No. Before that.

hS
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Old 08-02-2019, 01:59 AM   #3238
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He loved Elves?
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Old 08-02-2019, 02:12 AM   #3239
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Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Huinesoron is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
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He loved Elves?
Which line of the riddle are you proposing that being relevant to? I'm almost intrigued to hear how you managed to link it, but I'll just settle for a flat 'nope'.

hS
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Old 08-02-2019, 03:32 AM   #3240
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Well, I can't find anything else relevant that I've already said. Can you at least tell me the post number where I said it?
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