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Old 09-10-2008, 04:58 PM   #41
wispeight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
I have a suggestion - instead of questioning someone on a post which is not only obscure, but also off-topic, why don't we just get back to the subject of this thread?! Thanks!
~~~~~~~~~

Middle-Earth can be discerned as integral to the Valars. Not realizing this can thus give one the opportunity to make assertions that I am off topic and obtuse. But a lot can also be said about assertions.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:51 PM   #42
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I give up.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:20 PM   #43
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Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.Gwathagor is a guest of Elrond in Rivendell.
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Let's see...

Manwe - Jupiter
-lightning, winds, storms, eagles, etc.

Varda - Juno
-queen, associated with light

Tulkas - Mars
-fighting

Mandos - Pluto
-dead people

Ulmo - Neptune
-water

Aule - Vulcan
-smith, craftsman

I think those are all the really close comparisons, and they're all pretty obvious. The other Valar only resemble Greco-Roman deities in one or two characteristics. Vaire, for example, weaves, like Minerva/Athena, but that's as far as the similarity goes.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:01 PM   #44
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I seem to remember having read Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell around two years ago, but unfortunately all copies from the library are on loan now... can anyone remind me what Campbell's idea of the gods were? I'm pretty sure he did comparative religion--from Hindu traditions to Christian to Greco-Roman, even a bit of African. When I read that book, I was reminded of the structures of Tolkien's Valar, but unfortunately I can't remember how anymore.

Anyway one of the main points of that book (or maybe I'm confusing it with another book, called Ishtar Rising) is "there's nothing new under the sun"; in Mesopotamian and Indo-European traditions, there is a theological family tree (if I may use that term), and that is why we see similarities like Astarte/Ishtar - Aphrodite/Venus - Freya. Usually goddesses of fertility are associated with crops, as with Freya's and Ishtar's case, but the Greeks have a different crop goddess, called Demeter, who we may associate with Yavanna. Now because of Roman Catholic tradition that devilized the goddess of love and sexuality, there emerged a new goddess-figure--the Virgin Mary and other virgin martyrs like Santa Ursula--and I think this is one of the most influential in Tolkien's myth-making. We don't see Aphrodites in Middle-Earth running after cute little mortals, or Freyas bedding Dwarves so she can have pretty jewels. But we can still see the older myths' influence in it, like Yavanna as fertility goddess and Varda as the Juno-figure, and the stuff Gwathagor has mentioned.

I admire Tolkien for this, that he is able to put up a myth but not sound too stereotypical or archetypal. Maybe because, in a matter of speaking, he got there first? Well, not really first, but comparatively earlier than other books that also has its own set of gods.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:53 PM   #45
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Quote:
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I give up.
~~~

I'm done. I also apologize. I didn't want to volunteer my understanding of how Middle Earth might be interpreted. I was fishing to see if someone else would have a similar understanding to mine, without submitting mine first.

I'll stick to the surface of things when I post here.
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Old 09-11-2008, 04:58 PM   #46
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It sounds interesting, wispeight. You should start a new topic.
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Old 09-11-2008, 08:56 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wispeight View Post
~~~

I'm done. I also apologize. I didn't want to volunteer my understanding of how Middle Earth might be interpreted. I was fishing to see if someone else would have a similar understanding to mine, without submitting mine first.

I'll stick to the surface of things when I post here.
No, you don't have to do that. Just remember the following:

1. New topic = new thread.

2. The main purpose of language is to communicate. You cannot rely on others divining your meaning psychically.

(I mean, you're not like this in real life, are you?)
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Old 09-12-2008, 02:51 PM   #48
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Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Morthoron is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wispeight View Post
I didn't want to volunteer my understanding of how Middle Earth might be interpreted..
*blinks*

Why? Is it so bizarre as to mark you forever as a schismatic and heretical abomination?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wispeight View Post
I was fishing to see if someone else would have a similar understanding to mine, without submitting mine first.
Why? Clairvoyance is not a hallmark of this site. I think that's ovewr on Harry Potter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wispeight View Post
I'll stick to the surface of things when I post here.
Why? Some of us might be almost capable of thinking deep thoughts. Not as deeply as you, of course, but in the words of Oscar Wilde: "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking up at the stars" (or something to that effect).
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Old 09-12-2008, 07:09 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerwen View Post
No, you don't have to do that. Just remember the following:

1. New topic = new thread.

2. The main purpose of language is to communicate. You cannot rely on others divining your meaning psychically.

(I mean, you're not like this in real life, are you?)
~~~

I decided that I was not going to throw my Theosophical point of view onto this forum. This is the conclusion I've come to after reviewing my posts. All the communication I submitted in such an obscure manner, indicated to me that I did not want to, after all is said.

That mention toward only sticking to the surface of things was impulsive and probably hurt me more than anyone on the forum.

Morthoron, you should mind your knee-jerk replies, and the 'cannon to kill a mosquito' methodology. Actually, I don't mind one bit, it was quite impressive. Was it good for you too?
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Old 09-12-2008, 11:10 PM   #50
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Which part of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
get back to the subject of this thread
is not clear?!

Any further posts (and perhaps past posts as well) that do not concern comparison of the Valar with Greek, Roman or other gods, angels, etc. or something closely related to that will be deleted without further notice. If you have personal questions or comments to individual members, please take them to PMs. Thank you.
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Old 11-27-2008, 03:24 PM   #51
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Thumbs up my contrition

Abstract/concrete thought has not been used properly by this user.

I will speak plainly and be concrete from here on. I knew about the Ramayana but have not put any length of attention to it. However, I come across relavent text that appears to compare with valars. I'll paste it below.

"Many are the legends of the hero who descends along a bridge "narrow as a thread and sharp as a knife blade" to rescue the pure maiden. The noble Sir Gawain bridged the torrents under water to gain the love of a beautiful princess entrapped in the realm below. Such tales describe a passage into the womb of Mother Nature who strives to swallow up any who cannot outwit her craft. The Great Mother yawns as an abyss in consciousness and must be spanned and mastered by the piercing quest of the enlightened mind. Out of the great oblivion, the daughter of Chaos must be awakened and drawn forth into co-existence with the magus mind. Perhaps the most beautiful rendering of this noble venture is found in the Ramayana where Hanuman, the monkey king, vows to Rama to build of himself and his own kind a bridge to rescue the innocent and pure queen Sita. Hanuman speaks:

O'er the deep sea where monsters play
A bridge, O Rama, will I lay;
For sharer of my father's skill
Mine is the power and mine the will.
Command the Vanar hosts to lay
Foundations for the bridge today."

What I induce in regard to the hero descending along a path, narrow as a knife blade, to rescue the fair maiden, is the inner journey to reach the spiritual soul.
I think many written texts, palimpsests, manuscripts, which speak of great armies and great conflicts are about this inner quest.

When we have actual conflicts among nations on this physical plane, it will of course be recorded for the sake of preserving history, but to glorify or romanticize the killing of a human who is the foundation of a multi-leveled microcosm, a universe in miniature, to find honor in this, is an abomination.
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Old 11-27-2008, 05:33 PM   #52
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Given the love Tolkien had for the Finnish language, I'm surprised that people have omitted the Finnish deities, as well as the heroes of the Kalevala, from their comparisons here and stuck mostly with Greek and Norse comparisons.
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Old 11-28-2008, 09:31 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andsigil View Post
Given the love Tolkien had for the Finnish language, I'm surprised that people have omitted the Finnish deities, as well as the heroes of the Kalevala, from their comparisons here and stuck mostly with Greek and Norse comparisons.
~~~
For my part it was my lacking, not intention. Thank you for the link.
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Old 12-07-2008, 11:07 AM   #54
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White Tree Aule & Yavanna

The title of this thread just caught my attention. No one's talked much about Yavanna (Ceres, or not?) and Aule (to my mind, the most *interesting* of the Valar, because of his creation of the dwarves; not really comparable to Vulcan, though, despite his smith-work).
It's Aule & Yavanna as a couple that interests me most now--what are the implications for that pairing? I lent out my copy of Silm so I can't check it now, but there's a chapter on the two of them. Yavanna's concern resulting in the race of the Ents, etc. Two very different worldviews with tremendous consequences for the physical world. There is some effort to work toward complementary views, but the environmental implications are left in the balance as the two prepare for the coming of the Children of Illuvatar. Depite Yavanna's love of trees, Aule declares "Nevertheless, they will have need of wood" and leaves it at that.
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