The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-13-2002, 07:55 PM   #1
Naurlothwen
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 26
Naurlothwen has just left Hobbiton.
Question of Elves and Dwarves?

Yes I've got a lot of questions today...
Call me stupid but I've never been able to CLEARLY describe the relationship between elves and dwarves. why is it that they dislike each other?????? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
__________________
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
Naurlothwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2002, 08:08 PM   #2
Mithuial
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Doriath
Posts: 35
Mithuial has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Mithuial
Sting

k, let me refer you to the Silmarillion, Chapter 2 "Of Aule and Yavanna." This was before the coming of elves and Aule was kinda bored and really wanted some people to whom he could teach craftsmanship and lore, so he made the dwarves, but he hid it from the other Valar. Yavanna, his wife, when she found out about it was upset that she hid it from her, and she said, "Yet because thou hiddest this though from me until its achievement, thy children will have little love for the things of my love." Yavanna of course loved trees and things that grow. So, my opinion is that because the dwarves had little love for things that grow and the elves had much love for them they had some strife between them. Plus, when elves and dwarves first met the elves thought they were kinda "uncouth." I think that has something to do with it. I don't know how complete of a job a did explaining that, but there ya go.
__________________
"And Maglor answered: 'If it be truly the Silmaril which we saw cast into the sea that rises again by the power of the Valar, then let us be glad; for its glory is seen now by many, and is yet secure from all evil.' Then the Elves looked up, and despaired no longer, but Morgoth was filled with doubt." -The Silmarillion.
Mithuial is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2002, 08:15 PM   #3
Tarthang
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Paths of the Dead
Posts: 108
Tarthang has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Also, in the Silm (er, I think, maybe in one of the HOME books) the Dwarves from Belegost (I think, again), assualted the Elves of Doriath, to gain the Silmaril while it was in Thingols keeping. Just an example of one of the reasons causing strife between elves and dwarves.

[ September 13, 2002: Message edited by: Tarthang ]
Tarthang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2002, 08:19 PM   #4
Naurlothwen
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Rivendell
Posts: 26
Naurlothwen has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
... ""Yet because thou hiddest this though from me until its achievement, thy children will have little love for the things of my love." Yavanna of course loved trees and things that grow. So, my opinion is that because the dwarves had little love for things that grow and the elves had much love for them they had some strife between them....
hmmm interesting Idea, I must take that into account.
__________________
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
Naurlothwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2002, 08:54 PM   #5
Manwe Sulimo
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor
Posts: 553
Manwe Sulimo has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Manwe Sulimo
Sting

Tarthang, you are correct. The main meat between the Elves and Dwarves was the Nogrod Dwarves attacking Menegroth and killing Thingol, and stealing the Nauglamir (and Silmaril).

There was also some animosity developing during the Second Age, when the Dwarves refused to be part of the Last Alliance (at least in any large part), and when the Dwarves awoke the Balrog in Khazad-dûm.
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."
Manwe Sulimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2002, 03:17 AM   #6
Galorme
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Posts: 337
Galorme has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Also Beren's somewhat mercyless slaughter of the dwarfs wasn't exactly nice. But the main reason is that the elves and dwarfs are mostly different, but i think that in the elves the dwarves see the sillyness and happyness and beauty that they want to be, and the elves see the master craftmanship that they love. Also the elves see the extremes of heartless destruction of trees and nature that dislike, and the dwarves see the "bloody hippys" side of the elves. So its more their similarities and differences, rather than events, that breed hate between the races. But at the same time it can breed love (Gimili and Legolas anyone?).
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!
Galorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2002, 04:21 AM   #7
bombur
Wight
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: finland
Posts: 126
bombur has just left Hobbiton.
Pipe

I think there is also mutual respect between dwarves and eleves. I seem to remember reading somewhere that of all eleves the dwarves respected most the Noldor. I also seem to remeber that they thought eol and vice versa. They are united in love and skill of craft and crafted items. The whole war between the dwarves and eleves over the silmaril and nauglairim, killing of Thingol, sack of thousand caves etc. All of this started from a personal reasons of few crafters and in the end both "nations" fighting thought they were justified. I suppose such quarrels leave deeper supicion then either would feel to men even though many men served Morgoth.

Put yourseleves in the shoes of eleves for example. With men you have your allies and enemies amongst them and you have to know what is what. With dwarves... yes they are all for you in principle, but beware of misunderstandings (especially over ownership of pretty things) or a war might arise to desolate kingdoms on both sides.

Men seem safer all of a sudden [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]


Janne Harju
bombur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2002, 12:54 PM   #8
Belin
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Belin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: all the wide unfriendly pathways of the world
Posts: 330
Belin has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via Yahoo to Belin
Silmaril

This was also discussed in this thread.

What both discussions leave out to some degree is the fact that the Elves were certainly not a cohesive group, and I don't think the Dwarves were either. So while Caranthir's scorn hand earned him and all his people the dislike of the Eastern Dwarves, Thingol was complacently trading with those that lived near him (granted, "Naugrim" is not a very nice name, but some of the other names they gave dwarves seem to me to carry a hint of admiration), and they were getting along beautifully with Finrod (of course, who wasn't?), well enough to give him another name. Each of these relationships was ruined separately, that with Thingol by the ugly business of the Nauglamir as mentioned above and that with Finrod by the unfortunate political circumstances that arose at his death.

One thing that makes this interesting is Galadriel. Looking at the scene between her and Gimli as the Fellowship leaves Lorien is moving on an entirely different level if you look at it from a political point of view. On the one hand, there's her incredible suitability to represent all elves. She's usually considered a Noldo; she's closely related to Feanor who made the Silmarils that caused all these problems. She has close ties to the Sindar as well; she is descended from the Teleri, she was educated by Melian, and she married a Sindar. She's also Finrod's sister. So all three of these groups can be represented by her, and she has the choice between reconciliation and perpetutation of the grudge. She chooses reconciliation.

And then again, there's also the echoes of the episode of the Nauglamir in her exchange with Gimli. If I had my book with me I could go into this more thoroughly, but her offer of a gift seems to me a negative echo of the dispute of ownership between Thingol and the Dwarves. It also comes very close to that nightmare moment in fairy tales when someone is offered a choice of gifts, although, of course, Galadriel is somewhat more circumspect than that and does not swear to give Gimli whatever he asks for. There's an opportunity for him to make some outrageous request, or a snotty one, but he's gracious. It's really a very striking moment.

I will probably have to edit this later to make it make sense......

--Belin Ibaimendi,
flagrantly misusing her study time.
__________________
"I hate dignity," cried Scraps, kicking a pebble high in the air and then trying to catch it as it fell. "Half the fools and all the wise folks are dignified, and I'm neither the one nor the other." --L. Frank Baum
Belin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:29 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.