The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-01-2005, 02:59 AM   #1
Turgon Philip Noldor
Animated Skeleton
 
Turgon Philip Noldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 32
Turgon Philip Noldor has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree When they die, where do they go?

When they die, where do they go?

The original title for this Thread was going to be “When Elves die, where do they go?” But I realized that I haven’t been just wondering where elves go when they die, but also where men and dwarves and hobbits go when they die. I am actually wondering where any species goes once they are dead. I am not talking about where they are buried, but where their soul goes. A lot of elves die even though they are immortal, right? Elves probably died while defending Lorian’s (sp?) borders. I assume that their soul goes to Valinor (sp?), but I am not sure. Many men died while defending Minis Tirith (sp?), where did their souls go? That is my question, many elves left over the western seas, I know where they went. But where is the resting place for the souls of Middle Earth?
__________________
"Covered by a love divine, Child of the risen Lord, To hear You say 'This ones mine', My heart is spoken for...."
-MercyMe, Spoken For-
Turgon Philip Noldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-01-2005, 06:19 AM   #2
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,908
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
TPN, I guess you have not read the Silmarillion yet which explains much of this?

The Elves are bound to the world and may not truly die as long as it endures. If they are slain or die of grief their spirits pass to the Halls of Mandos in the Undying Lands where they wait for a length of time depending on the wrongs they committed before theiy may take up bodies again. If they refuse to go to Mandos they become wandering spirits.

The fate of men is different and the Elves believe they pass beyond the circles of the world - that is why the parting of Elrond and Arwen is so hard, becasue they have no hope of meeting after death- and that Eru (God) has a purpose for them.

Hobbits may be regarded as a variant of Men, I think.

I think Dwarves think they return to the stone (they lay their dead in stone tombs not earth) but I am sure someone else will be able to confirm or deny this!!!!

Thsi is a rough idea since Tolkien revised his thoughts on Elvish rebirth particularly several times - and I have neither the resources or the time (lunch break at work ) to explain now (and maybe not the skill at all!).. but it is a start...
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2005, 12:51 AM   #3
Turgon Philip Noldor
Animated Skeleton
 
Turgon Philip Noldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 32
Turgon Philip Noldor has just left Hobbiton.
Sorry, I have read the Silmarillion, but It was about a year ago and I don't remember it all. Thank you very much for that information. Anybdy else got something to say??
__________________
"Covered by a love divine, Child of the risen Lord, To hear You say 'This ones mine', My heart is spoken for...."
-MercyMe, Spoken For-
Turgon Philip Noldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2005, 08:59 AM   #4
Nilpaurion Felagund
Scion of The Faithful
 
Nilpaurion Felagund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,430
Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe Re: Dwarven afterlife.

Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves return to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the end. . . . They also say that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names . . .
TS II
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo)
The plot, cut, defeated.
I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Nilpaurion Felagund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2005, 01:09 AM   #5
Turgon Philip Noldor
Animated Skeleton
 
Turgon Philip Noldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 32
Turgon Philip Noldor has just left Hobbiton.
White Tree

Thank you Nilpaurion, I guess that answers my question about the Dwarves. Anybody else?
__________________
"Covered by a love divine, Child of the risen Lord, To hear You say 'This ones mine', My heart is spoken for...."
-MercyMe, Spoken For-
Turgon Philip Noldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2005, 04:38 PM   #6
Nimrodel_9
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Nimrodel_9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Utah
Posts: 786
Nimrodel_9 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Nimrodel_9
Silmaril I haven't read the Silm in about a year, so correct me if I am wrong...

I admit that I never fully understood the death of elves. They go to the Undying Lands, which is also called Aman, beyond the Great Sea. But you can also sail there, right? So let's say Elladan and Elrohir (just for example ) are in a battle. Elrohir is slain and Elladan wishes to see him again. Can Elladan just sail to Aman and find his brother? This is how I understood it.

Quote:
Hobbits may be regarded as a variant of Men, I think.
But men can't sail to Aman, right? So what was the point in Frodo, Bilbo, and possibly Sam going? Perhaps they are regarded the same as elves... But they are not of the Firstborn.

Someone help me.

Nim
__________________
*.:A friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart:.*
Nimrodel_9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2005, 07:03 PM   #7
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,276
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9
I admit that I never fully understood the death of elves. They go to the Undying Lands, which is also called Aman, beyond the Great Sea. But you can also sail there, right? So let's say Elladan and Elrohir (just for example ) are in a battle. Elrohir is slain and Elladan wishes to see him again. Can Elladan just sail to Aman and find his brother? This is how I understood it.
That depends. First of all, Elladan and Elrohir are a bad example, because they are Half-Elven, and we do not know if they ultimately chose Elvenkind or Mankind.

But assuming that they chose Elvenkind, then Elladan COULD be reincarnated. Now, here's the catch: the decision to reincarnate Elves is left with Mandos (and Manwe). And if those Elves have not lived good enough lives, they are sunk. Feanor, to mention a specific case, because of the terrible evil of his deeds, will remain in Mandos until the end of Arda.

However, others like Glorfindel and Finrod, who were as good of people in life as possible, and died selfless deaths, were both reincarnated quite soon after death- or so it is implied. In the case of an inbetween Elf (I believe Saeros has it said about him), he/she will remain in Mandos for a long time, but will eventually be reincarnated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9
But men can't sail to Aman, right? So what was the point in Frodo, Bilbo, and possibly Sam going? Perhaps they are regarded the same as elves... But they are not of the Firstborn.

Someone help me.

Nim
Actually, Men COULD get to the Undying Lands. Tolkien's vision of the Silmarillion, right up until the end, included the great tale being told to a man, while he was in Tol Eressia- the isle off the coast of Valinor where Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would have lived.

The catch is that they could not return to Middle-Earth. Not even the Elves could come back. It took a special act of the Valar to send the Istari (but they were Maiar anyway) in the Third Age. After the fall of Numenor, it became a one-way street.

A one-way street, it is true, on which Men (indeed, all Mortals) didn't have PERMISSION to travel on, but which they COULD anyway. In the cases of the Ringbearers and Gimli, this was a VERY special permission granted under very unusual circumstances. And while it did permit them to the Undying Lands, it did not make them undying. They remained mortal, and sooner or later (although envisioning later is more fun, to my mind) they would, of their own nature, being restored to the natural state Eru had envisioned, pass away and leave the circles of this world.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.

Last edited by Formendacil; 08-03-2005 at 11:04 PM.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2005, 08:57 PM   #8
Nilpaurion Felagund
Scion of The Faithful
 
Nilpaurion Felagund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,430
Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Nilpaurion Felagund is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Pipe Re:

Quote:
But assuming that they chose Mankind, then Elladan COULD be reincarnated. (Formendhacil)
Elves are the one reincarnated.


Quote:
Now, here's the catch: the decision to reincarnate Elves is left with Mandos (and Manwe). And if those Elves have not lived good enough lives, they are sunk. Feanor, to mention a specific case, because of the terrible evil of his deeds, will remain in Mandos until the end of Arda. (Formendhacil)
I think Fëanor (and Finwë) are special example of Elves and should not be considered when talking about general Eldarin afterlife.

Fëanor is stuck in Mandos 'til the end of time, due to his evil deeds, and perhaps his love for his father. Now Finwë--why him? Because he had married twice. He had married Indis while Míriel refused to leave the Halls of Mandos. But when he died, Míriel returned to life, and Finwë could not return and be bound to two, as that's frowned upon in some societies (like Calaquendian ones).

Or I don't know. I'm just getting these from second-hand sources (the smart chaps in the Downs who have actually read HoME X).
__________________
フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo)
The plot, cut, defeated.
I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Nilpaurion Felagund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2005, 11:11 PM   #9
Formendacil
Dead Serious
 
Formendacil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,276
Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Formendacil is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Send a message via AIM to Formendacil Send a message via MSN to Formendacil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund
Elves are the one reincarnated.
How embarrassing!

Fixed to avoid confusion on the part of any confused readers....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilp
I think Fëanor (and Finwë) are special example of Elves and should not be considered when talking about general Eldarin afterlife.

Fëanor is stuck in Mandos 'til the end of time, due to his evil deeds, and perhaps his love for his father. Now Finwë--why him? Because he had married twice. He had married Indis while Míriel refused to leave the Halls of Mandos. But when he died, Míriel returned to life, and Finwë could not return and be bound to two, as that's frowned upon in some societies (like Calaquendian ones).

Or I don't know. I'm just getting these from second-hand sources (the smart chaps in the Downs who have actually read HoME X).
As one of those HoMEers, I have to stick by my original assertion. Finwe and Feanor are not isolated cases. No other specific ones are given, but the implication is there that there are other Elves who will be held in Mandos for a Long, Long, Long time.

However, as I tried to note, just because an Elf doesn't go in and out quickly like Finrod or Glorfindel doesn't mean that they don't come out the other end eventually. Actually, Tolkien's concept of Mandos isn't all that unlike the Catholic belief of Purgatory in this matter. Both are places where the Dead are held after Death while they atone for their sins before being sent on to Paradise. In both the amount of time spent is relative to the amount of "sin" in the life of deceased.

But that is all a rather different topic, and there is no need to get into it in depth, is there?
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
Formendacil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 11:26 AM   #10
Nimrodel_9
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Nimrodel_9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Utah
Posts: 786
Nimrodel_9 has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Nimrodel_9
Silmaril

I had guessed most of that, but that does clear things up a bit. Thag you very buch!

I was going to ask a question about Eärendil, but never mind. I figured it out for myself while I was typing. I tend to do that.
__________________
*.:A friend is someone who reaches for your hand and touches your heart:.*
Nimrodel_9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 11:14 PM   #11
Turgon Philip Noldor
Animated Skeleton
 
Turgon Philip Noldor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Indonesia
Posts: 32
Turgon Philip Noldor has just left Hobbiton.
Wow! Thank you every body that have been contributing to this Thread. I learned more here and got more replies then I had hoped to get.
__________________
"Covered by a love divine, Child of the risen Lord, To hear You say 'This ones mine', My heart is spoken for...."
-MercyMe, Spoken For-
Turgon Philip Noldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:43 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.