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Old 02-29-2012, 04:23 PM   #1
Drognan
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Why Sauron wants the Ring?

Is it explained why Sauron wants the Ring so much?
The Ring doesn't guarantee victory because he was defeated when he wore Ring for the last time.
He already has great army and power big enough to conquer men and elves of ME.
Is it personal power? He is allready immortal, has the power to torment earth itself.
Is it only that there is never enough power or is it something else? Fear that new Lord of the rings would be stronger than he is? What do You think?
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:25 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Drognan View Post
Is it explained why Sauron wants the Ring so much?
The Ring doesn't guarantee victory because he was defeated when he wore Ring for the last time.
He already has great army and power big enough to conquer men and elves of ME.
Is it personal power? He is allready immortal, has the power to torment earth itself.
Is it only that there is never enough power or is it something else? Fear that new Lord of the rings would be stronger than he is? What do You think?
In part it's because he'll never be secure as long as someone else might get it. Once he figured out that Gollum had it, and it's now in the hands of a (shudder) Hobbit, he knew he had a problem.

Besides, the One Ring ought to be on any Dark Lord's list of want to haves.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:29 PM   #3
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Sauron put a lot of his power into the Ring. He still has great power besides - but the Ring is a significant "investment". With this additional power he would be able to dominate even the Three Elven Rings and reach from within into the Elven strongholds.

When the Ring was lost but not destroyed, the power within it was like a reserve that you can't use. But it was still there, and you could not defeat Sauron without destroying the Ring - there was too much of him in it. But this is the more "neutral" position.

If Sauron's enemies (ie Elves, Gandalf, Gondorians, etc) found the Ring and discovered its potential, he feared that they would use it to overthrow him. The Ring would betray the lesser beings to their end, like it did Isildur, but if someone great weilded it there would have been a possibility that they would defeat Sauron and become the new Dark Lord - since the Ring corrupts. To make an analogy: imagine Gandalf finds a wallet full of Sauron's credit cards.

However, what Sauron hadn't anticipated or feared (by Gandalf's words) is that his enemies would seek to destroy the Ring - not destroy him and/or replace him, but destroy his reserve and leave him "bankrupt" of power forever.


Edit: xed with blantyr who makes good points
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Old 03-01-2012, 07:41 AM   #4
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The reason he thought the elves would keep the ring would be his observation of the Elven smiths and the elves of the First Age back in the day I guess? Did he not realise that Elrond and Galadriel were a different kettle of fish? Surely, he would have got a hint with them denying him in the Second Age.
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Old 03-01-2012, 08:26 AM   #5
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The reason he thought the elves would keep the ring would be his observation of the Elven smiths and the elves of the First Age back in the day I guess? Did he not realise that Elrond and Galadriel were a different kettle of fish? Surely, he would have got a hint with them denying him in the Second Age.
It could be that. Or he could have thought that anyone would want the Ring, to use its power. And if not, the Ring would still corrutp them eventually.

Either way, one wouldn't throw it away, or even give it away (Bilbo is a remarkable exception, and even Sam).
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:06 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Gandalf
Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not.
It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope.

Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts.

Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
Sauron is so enamored of power that he is unable to conceive of anyone else acting for any other motive. Thus, his reasoning might run...
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Refuse the Ring ?!? NO WAY !!!! They *MUST* have some sneaky plan working that involves trying to fool me (and others) by *pretending* they don't want the ring. Well, it won't work - I'm too smart to fall for that. I *KNOW* they really want it. I just have to figure out what their subterfuge is all about so I can counter it.
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Old 03-09-2012, 05:54 PM   #7
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Do we know what powers Ring provides? It's allready known that turns person invisible and greedy, it can control other rings, what else?
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:17 PM   #8
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Do we know what powers Ring provides? It's allready known that turns person invisible and greedy, it can control other rings, what else?
Basically, the One Ring provides the wearer with Sauron's will, or a portion of it, that enables command and control of other beings. Of course, that effect is proportional to the innate will, ability, and ambition of the possessor.
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Old 03-09-2012, 06:28 PM   #9
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Do we know what powers Ring provides? It's allready known that turns person invisible and greedy, it can control other rings, what else?
I suppose it is able to subdue others' wills and amplify spells focusing them precisely. As such an amplifier it is possibly more powerful than the staffs of Istari. The Ring's ability to bend others to his Master's will is enormous.

I agree with what was already said but would like to add that Sauron probably suffers the loss of the Ring almost in a physical way. He is incomplete, inconsistent without it. It is like feeling ill. He can't fully recover without it. In this respect he feels similar to Gollum, Saruman or Denethor who all became the Ring's victims.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:27 AM   #10
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Sauron

sauron wanted the ring for conquering the world and he wants it for greater power...
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:42 PM   #11
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think it's a way to secure power for him, he feels that if someone else has can be very powerful to deal
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:22 AM   #12
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Ring

What people don't realize is that Sauron wants his ring back before his wife finds out he lost it. Otherwise, he's going to be sleeping on the couch for a VERY long time.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:25 PM   #13
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What people don't realize is that Sauron wants his ring back before his wife finds out he lost it. Otherwise, he's going to be sleeping on the couch for a VERY long time.
Sauron's wife? That gives a whole new meaning to the "Mouth" of Sauron.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:10 PM   #14
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Is it explained why Sauron wants the Ring so much?
The Ring doesn't guarantee victory because he was defeated when he wore Ring for the last time.
I think it was because the Ring would lay bare all things that the Elves had done with the Three. On recovering the One Sauron, "will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever." [FotR, p. 76] Remember the Rings are connected, but Sauron only had any control over the other if he had the One Ring, or wore those other Rings themselves. So when he recovers the One the hideouts and works of all his enemies would be known. Everything that was done with the Rings apparently left a sort of imprint. So the work of Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel he would know of. The reason he made the Rings was to control the peoples of Middle-Earth. Gandalf says that the Ring he lacks is the "one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defenses, and cover all the lands in a second darkness." [FotR, p. 76] Remember, "One Ring to rule them all..." Also as Elrond mentions as long as the Rng is around it would be a danger to the Wise because they could take it and take Sauron's place and Sauron would not want that, "It's strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise." [FotR, p. 320-321]
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:51 PM   #15
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Do we know what powers Ring provides? It's allready known that turns person invisible and greedy, it can control other rings, what else?
It enhances the innate powers of the bearer. But you basically got it all. It had the power to control the other Rings and the control the minds and know the thoughts of the wielders of the other Rings. All that is wrought or done with the other Rings he will know. Sauron could keep his power in the world and anything he built with it could not be destroyed. Elrond says, "His Ring was lost but not unmade. The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure." [FotR, p. 294] The Ring could not be destroyed by any craft less than Sauron's and we know when we are told of Sauron's forges that they were, "the greatest in Middle-Earth; all other power were here subdued." [RotK, p. 247]
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:08 AM   #16
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because with it Sauron has the power to rule everyone
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:47 AM   #17
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Powers of the One Ring

As I understand it there are essentially two definitions of the powers of the One Ring:
a narrow one and a broad one.
Depending on the definition of its powers the One Ring was either a failure/mistake or a success.

1. Narrow Definition of the Powers of the One Ring:

The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.
If you ascribe to that definition, the Ring was essentially a failure: Elves and Dwarves never fell for the Rings and in my opinion the other 9 were never really necessary for Sauron to establish his Rule over the eastern/southern Men. The usefullness of the Nazgul is also questionable. The only useful effect of the Ring in this scenario is that it functioned as an „anchor“ after the corporeal death of the fully incarnated Sauron at the end of the Second Age and so allowed for his Re-Incarnation after a thousand years.

I really don´t like this narrow definition for the following reasons:
- It makes Sauron look rather stupid and pathetic, he gambled everything, and lost.
- The One Ring loses a lot of its mystique, menace and magic: it becomes an almost technical tool that has a very limited purpose. This also begs the question: why would the wise be tempted by it? They already have the Three, why would they need the One? To dominate the Three, which they already possess? (I know, I know, delusions of grandeur and temptations are a safety mechanism of the One Ring, but still.)
- The One Ring effectively only dominated the Nine Rings, it is therefore pretty much useless and Sauron has not that much to gain by recapturing it! He doesn't really need it.


2. Broad Definition of the Powers of the One Ring:

( See also this Thread: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=10723 )

It is widely accepted and Tolkien himself stated that the One Ring made Sauron much more powerful, he even went so far as to state that after the forging of it in the Second Age Sauron was (In his person) more powerful than Morgoth (the person) at the end of the First Age.
But: in the World of Ea every Power (even the Valar!) diminishes over time, and once Power is lost or dispersed it is very difficult to get it back.
Why then was Sauron with the One Ring suddenly MORE powerful than before, even though his „dominate-the-Elves-through-Rings“-scheme utterly failed (by the „Increase in Power“ Tolkien cant mean „Dominion over other Rings“, because Sauron never did dominate the other Rings, except the Nine!)?

This extra Power has to come from somewhere!

The broad definition of the Powers of the One Ring therefore states that the Domination of the other Rings of Power was only a secondary Function of the One Ring; its primary Function was to access and control the „Morgoth Element“ in Arda, and through that control Matter.

During the Making of Arda, the Ainur (and especially the Valar) dispersed their inherent Power into the World. Melkor took that to the extreme: he poured so much of his Power into the World in order to control it that Tolkien spoke of Arda as „Morgoths Ring“; this dispersed Power of Melkor is also called „Morgoth Element“.
Tolkien wrote that Sauron chose Mordor because of Mount Doom and its magical quality; maybe the volcano was some sort of link or hotspot to the dispersed/embedded Power of Melkor. This would also explain why Sauron poured so much of his own Power into the Ring: it had to be especially powerful in order to channel and somewhat control the massive Morgoth Element. (By the way: Tolkien also wrote that gold is one of the elements that has a very large percentage of the Morgoth Element.)

This would also suit the character of Sauron: to use and ultimately usurp the dispersed Power of his former Master in such a way is an extremely selfish and unsentimental act (and Sauron was selfish, he was using Melkor in the Second Age, just as he was using him, for his own advancement, in the First Age). Sauron gambles that Melkor will never come back, because surely if he would come back he would perceive the using of his own dispersed Power by one of his servants as a an act of aggression and either demand the Ring, or force Sauron to destroy it!
Tolkien wrote that at the beginning of the Second Age Sauron thought that the Valar AND Melkor had failed; so he obviously no longer had any regard or sympathy for his former Master.

Maybe thats also how the One Ring allowed Sauron to dominate other wills: because the hroa is made of matter (and so also has a fair share of the morgoth element) the One Ring allowed him to better break the barriers of Unwill?

It could also very well be the case that it was the Forging of the One Ring (and the control of Melkors dispersed Power that went with it) in the Second Age that allowed Sauron to build his Empire in the first Place (recruit and dominate Orcs and other evil beings, magic, construction, infrastructure, etc.); this would also explain the rather large gap of 93 Years between the forging of the One Ring in II 1600 and the opening of the War between the Elves and Sauron in II 1693: before the forging Sauron maybe couldn't build a sufficient Empire/Military, but he also deemed it unnecessary for now because he wanted to subdue the Elves „peacefully“ through the Rings; after that failed, he suddenly needed a strong Military, and all his Empire-Building, arming up, etc. seemed to happen in those 93 years, and maybe it only could happen then because he was now able to manipulate Melkors dispersed Power. And while it is true that he also ruled in the Third Age, without the One Ring, his directly ruled „Empire“ during the time of the War of the Ring seems much smaller (consisting essentially only of Mordor and Dol Guldur); the Rest of his Dominion seems rather loosely organized, a Patchwork of indirectly ruled Vassals (Near and Far Harad, Umbar, Khand and the Eastern Tribes all seem more or less autonomous, swearing fealty and accepting Sauron as nominal God-King, paying tribute, etc. but still managing their own Affairs) – it seems that the Nature of Saurons Rule in the Third Age, without the One Ring, is much more „political“ than magical.

I like this broad definition because it makes the Ring much more ominous, primeval, mysterious and powerful; Sauron is a better Villain, more menacing and cunning: he really profits from the Creation of the Ring, and has a lot more to gain by recapturing it. Because of this The One Ring is also a much greater threat than in Scenario 1.
It is a link to the dispersed Power of the mightiest being in the Universe and allows the bearer, according to his own innate Power, to control and manipulate (the matter that is infused with) this dispersed Power. If you believe in this definition of the powers of the One Ring it was definitely not a failure. It enhanced Saurons own Power and Stature (maybe even to the Level of some of the Valar) and also anchored him to the material World.

(Another Question would be where the other Rings got their Power from? Do they harness the dispersed Power of other Valar? Are the three elven Rings the most powerful because they access the dispersed Power of the most powerful Valar: Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule? The „blasphemous“ nature of this sort of magic would rhyme with the rebellious and somewhat anti-valinorean character of the (exiled) Noldor. Was this the „Sales-Pitch“ of Annatar: to use the dispersed Power of the Valar to create a second, independent Valinor in Middle-Earth? Was this another Reason for the Rift between the Woodelves and the Noldor in the Second Age? (The Woodelves under Oropher maybe moved as far away from the Noldor as possible not only for political Reasons but also because they rejected this form of Magic as blasphemous, unnatural and antithetical to their Way of Life and their „Back to the Roots“-Worldview?) Was it maybe part of Saurons plan not only to dominate and corrupt the other Ringbearers but, through the One Ring and the other Rings of Power, to also corrupt and somehow transform the respective corresponding Valarian Elements? A lot of open questions … )

The only drawback is that Tolkien never explicitly confirmed this broad definition.
But then: he was often cryptic and didn't spell things out; that only adds to the mystique of the One Ring (We only know that the One Ring is very powerful, but why that is the case is a matter of Ring-Lore that even the Wise dont understand fully. And how much did the Wise really know about Melkor, his dispersed Power, the inner workings of the Ring, etc.? In the end they could only speculate just like we do!)

What do you think? In which definition do you believe and do you think the One Ring was a failure/mistake? And if it was a failure: how would Sauron have fared without it?

PS: Please excuse my English, its not my native language.

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Old 07-19-2014, 01:31 PM   #18
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1. Narrow Definition of the Powers of the One Ring:

The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.
If you ascribe to that definition, the Ring was essentially a failure: Elves and Dwarves never fell for the Rings and in my opinion the other 9 were never really necessary for Sauron to establish his Rule over the eastern/southern Men. The usefullness of the Nazgul is also questionable. The only useful effect of the Ring in this scenario is that it functioned as an „anchor“ after the corporeal death of the fully incarnated Sauron at the end of the Second Age and so allowed for the Re-Incarnation of his Fea after a thousand years.
Hello, denethorthefirst, and welcome to the Downs.

I would think the "narrow" view to be correct. Tolkien stated in Letters # 141:

Quote:
The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty...But secretly...Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end could utterly enslave them.
So the making the Three was not Sauron's idea: he had been instructing the Elves in making first the "lesser" rings, then the Nine and the Seven. Nevertheless, since the Three were made with techniques learned from Sauron, they fell under the same net as the others.
From that passage, it seems clear that domination was the prime motive for Sauron's ring-making.
Later, in the same letter, there's this:

Quote:
Eregion was captured and destroyed, and Sauron seized many Rings of Power. These he gave, for their ultimate corruption and enslavement, to those who would accept them (out of ambition or greed).
"Corruption and enslavement". Yes, Sauron already commanded his own servants, and had many willing followers among Men. But to Sauron, mere obedience was not enough. If it had been, why could he not have used his influence on the Noldor on Eregion to indice them over time to evil? No, a Sauron is much happier when his foes are made to serve him against their will.
Finally, in the same letter, Tolkien notes the inherent peril of Sauron's transfer of his power to the Ring:

Quote:
This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.
The largest oversight on Sauron's part was his failure to account for the perception of the Elves. I don't know that he could really be blamed for that, any more than he could necessarily have known that the Dwarves would have such an innate resistance to domination, and could not be made into wraiths.

He was certainly aware of his own fate if the Ring were ever to be taken from him forcibly or destroyed, but the odds of that happening were almost nil. Again, he can't really be too denigrated for his lack of foresight. Gandalf called him a "wise fool", and that's what he was. He saw Middle-earth as his for the taking if he made a small gamble, so he did so.

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Another Question would be where the other Rings got their Power from?
Since the Nine and Seven had the power of invisibility, my thought is that their power was derived from Sauron. Though those rings had been a joint effort between him and the Elves, he could still have allowed some of his power to pass into them

As for the Three, they were made with the Elvish ideals of healing a preservation in mind, and those were, I think, part of the nature of all their race. Perhaps the Noldor, being especially powerful among their kindred, had enough of that sort of spiritual power collectively that it passed into the Three. That's just my guess, at the moment.
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Old 07-19-2014, 02:31 PM   #19
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The points that have been made here about the powers of the rings are very good and I have nothing to add to them, however I do have a theory on Sauron's world view. Sauron was strong minded and opinionated, enough for him to be incredibly closed-minded. It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to me to think that he just assumed that everyone thought the way he did. Everyone wanted power first and foremost and had no other objectives in their lives. Sauron always held the belief, like was stated before, that anyone who got their hands on his ring would immediately want to use it. After all, he didn't have a whole lot of information to go off of to suggest otherwise.
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Old 07-19-2014, 03:04 PM   #20
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Hello Inziladun,

thanks for your welcome!

I have a problem with the "narrow" definition because its just so limited. Yes Sauron wanted to enslave people and directly dominate their mind, but there are only 19 rings of Power! If you follow the "narrow" definition that means a successful Sauron would enslave 19 (Leaders of) Elves ... but i dont think the rest of the Elves would follow them into domination and Saurons Rule, they would become suspicious sooner rather than later and exile or imprison their Leaders. So even IF his plan would have worked, he would only have 19, certainly powerful, enslaved Elves that he can directly dominate, but thats it, the elvish Kingdoms would still be independent from him! The second scenario ist just that much more universal and threatening.

But i like the Idea of the Three Elven Rings a a sort of National Project: all the remaining Noldor collectively pool their spiritual Power and concentrate it in the Three Rings and then entrust them to their Leaders in Order to preserve their Culture and Way of Life. Thats a cool Concept.

But maybe all this speculation is a bit too technical and beside the point ... LotR is essentially a fairy-tale and the Rings serve as a Metaphor for Power - and thats it.
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Old 07-19-2014, 07:49 PM   #21
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That is a truly excellent first post, denethorthefirst. Your English is excellent. The only oddity I note is your rendering quotations by „this” rather than by “this” or "this" or ‘this’ or 'this'.

That Elves and Dwarves never fell for the rings is a gross exaggeration. Tolkien indeed is chary in what he tells of the exact powers of the rings and the One Ring, but tells more than you indicate. His chief telling is in The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Letter 131, in which Tolkien writes (bolding by me):
The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. ‘change’ viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural power of a possessor – thus approaching ‘magic’, a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the visible world visible.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility. But secretly in the subterranean Fire, in his own Black Land, Sauron made One Ring, the Ruling Ring that contained the powers of all the others, and controlled them, so that its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end utterly enslave them.
Sauron did not gain the three Rings only because their possessors removed them and did not use them again until the One Ring was lost to Sauron when Sauron’s finger with the Ring was cut off by Isildur, and then the One Ring vanished when Isildur was seemingly slain.

Tolkien writes of the Dwarven rings in Appendix A III DURIN’S FOLK:
For the Dwarves had proved untameable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring to live either longer or shorter because of it.
The Rings were by some means used by the Dwarves to increase their wealth. J. R. R. Tolkien writes in “The Rings of Power and the Third Age”, the last essay by him in the published Silmarillion, in a passage mentioning Sauron’s rings: “It is said that the foundation of each of the Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings of old was a golden ring”. Tolkien also relates of the Dwarf-king Thrór and his Ring in Appendix A III DURIN’S FOLK:
Years afterwards Thrór, now old, poor, and desperate, gave to his son Thráin the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings, and then he went away with one old companion only, called Nár. Of the Ring he said to Thráin at their parting:

‘This may prove the foundation of a new fortune for you yet, though that seems unlikely. But it needs gold to breed gold.’
Tolkien also notes, through Gandalf, in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past” in Fellowship, that the One Ring is practically indestructible and cannot be harmed by heat sufficient to melt ordinary gold. But lesser heat will make visible an inscription engraved on the One Ring and the flames of Mount Doom where the Ring was forged would be sufficient to destroy the Ring.

The visionary scenes which Frodo sees from Amon Hen appear to be in part derived from Frodo’s increased Ring-induced sensitivity. That also puts Frodo in peril when Sauron almost sees him because Frodo is wearing the Ring. Fortunately this increased sensitivity also allows Gandalf to warn Frodo, I presume through connection to the lesser Ring Narya which the tale later reveals Gandalf has been secretly wearing all the time.

Tolkien also implies that Sam’s telepathic connection to the nearby Orcs is through the power of the Ring which Sam is wearing. When Sam encountered an Orc in the Tower of Cirith Ungol and grabbed the Ring, Sam appeared to the Orc as a powerful warrior cloaked in shadow holding “some nameless menace of power and doom.” When Gollum first attacks Frodo on Mount Doom, Sam sees Frodo as a vision of “a figure robed in white… [and] it held a wheel of fire.”

Tolkien then writes:
Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice.

‘Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.’

The crouching shape backed away, terror in its blinking eyes, and yet at the same time insatiable desire.
This is seen by many readers, including myself, as a Ring-backed potential curse of Gollum which Gollum then brings on himself when he attacks Frodo again.

In short the tale and Tolkien’s comments on it show various powers ascribed to the One Ring beyond the compass of your narrow definition. Tolkien writes openly that the Ruling Ring could control the power of the other Rings so that “its wearer could see the thoughts of all those that used the lesser rings, could govern all that they did, and in the end utterly enslave them.”

During Sauron’s first reign as Ring Lord the Elves escaped being controlled by the One Ring only by avoiding all use of the three Lesser Rings. Sauron only dominates the Elven Rings by your trick of counting not using at all as dominating. I don’t count avoiding entirely as being the same as dominating. At the same time it is clear that Sauron could not use the Dwarves as supernatural wraiths, but it seems that seven Dwarf kings were at his beck and call, perhaps along with much of their people who would not mostly be aware that their kings had become puppets. Think of Théoden before he was cured by Gandalf, only far more dominated.
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:42 PM   #22
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If the three were somehow "pirating" the power of the Valar then it it might be significant that those who actually wielded them had particular connection with the Valar: Círdan ever obedient to his task to wait and serve, Gandalf the Emissary, Elrond descendent of Melian and son of Earendil, Galadriel born into the light of the trees, and pupil of Melian. Save perhaps Galadriel, I cannot imagine any of them attempting to use "stolen" power, so perhaps the Valar legitimised their use (comparable to Eru's reaction to the creation of the Dwarves) or any of their power contained in the rings was not taken but given subsequent to their creation to aid their champions in the fight against Sauron. That might be a factor in the fading expected should theOne be destroyed even though Sauron hadn't. Been involved in their making. However this is no more than conjecture though there are items such as the Elessar and the Phial that seem to have power beyond that which might be conveyed by their physical makers.
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:41 AM   #23
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Hello Jallanite,

thanks for the compliments

Both definitions are a bit extreme, maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

"Tolkien also implies that Sam’s telepathic connection to the nearby Orcs is through the power of the Ring which Sam is wearing. When Sam encountered an Orc in the Tower of Cirith Ungol and grabbed the Ring, Sam appeared to the Orc as a powerful warrior cloaked in shadow holding “some nameless menace of power and doom.” When Gollum first attacks Frodo on Mount Doom, Sam sees Frodo as a vision of “a figure robed in white… [and] it held a wheel of fire.” ... In short the tale and Tolkien’s comments on it show various powers ascribed to the One Ring beyond the compass of your narrow definition."

These two examples are both covered by the narrow definition (enhancement of the ability to dominate other wills.).

Of course Sauron could theoretically dominate the three elven Rings, but he could not do so in practice because the Elves denied him the possibility; so he essentially only dominated the Nine, thats what i meant.

Tolkien clearly states that the Dwarves could not be dominated and that the rings did not work as intended; so i dont know how you come to the conclusion that the Seven Kings were somehow "puppets" during the Second Age? Quite the opposite was the case, the Dwarves fought Sauron and were still counted among the Free People.
And while its true that some Dwarves fought on Saurons side during the War of the Last Alliance, i dont think they fought "under" him (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him for political reasons maybe, or Sauron bought some dwarves as mercenaries (i dont think they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King). The Dwarves of Durin (and maybe other western Clans as well) definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain. So the seven Dwarf Kings were definitely not at Saurons "beck and call"! In fact Sauron did all he could to regain the Seven Rings because they did not work on the Dwarves and he could not dominate them (he only recaptured three of them by the end of the Third Age).

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Old 07-20-2014, 11:46 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by denethorthefirst View Post
And while its true that some Dwarves fought on Saurons side during the War of the Last Alliance, i dont think they fought "under" him (like the Orcs and Men) but more "alongside" him for political reasons maybe, or Sauron bought some dwarves as mercenaries (i dont think they gave up their religion, worship of Mahal the Maker, and accepted Sauron as God-King). The Dwarves of Durin (and maybe other western Clans as well) definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain. So the seven Dwarf Kings were definitely not at Saurons "beck and call"! In fact Sauron did all he could to regain the Seven Rings because they did not work on the Dwarves and he could not dominate them (he only recaptured three of them by the end of the Third Age).
I don’t recall so much as a mention of the Dwarves during what Tolkien writes of Sauron’s early wars.

I find, perhaps wrongly, your statement that the Dwarves “definitely fought on the Side of the Elves and the Dunedain” not to be supported by what Tolkien has written either about the war with Númenor or in the war of the Last Alliance. Provide a source for definitely.

My point in bringing in various other mentions by Tolkien of powers and attributes of the One Ring and the other Rings is that Tolkien does not restrict the One Ring only to your narrow definition:
The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.
The Orcs whom Sam contacts telepathically and the Orc who is frightened by Sam are not themselves bearers of other Rings of Power. That the One Ring has a vague ability to somehow enhance Sauron’s ability to dominate other wills, is just vague. It does not work on Gollum who even till the end is opposed to Sauron’s will, though terrified by the thought of him. It does not work on Frodo who wishes rather to set himself up as a new Dark Lord opposed to Sauron.

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Old 07-20-2014, 12:51 PM   #25
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I wrote that the Dwarves of DURIN at least definitely fought on the good side. That is supported by Tolkien.

Unfinished Tales, History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Page 229, about the War of the Elves and Sauron:
Quote:
In black anger he (Sauron) turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbors body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Saurons host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-Dum, and with them came Elves of Lorinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards ... and (Sauron) turned upon the Dwarves ... whom he drove back; but the gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Saurons hate, and all the Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.
This is a bit contradictory; by "harry Dwarves" Tolkien probably meant "Dwarves of Durins Folk" because Sauron gave away rings to the other clans afterwards so at least tried to subdue them "diplomatically" at first. Of course that failed, and the hatred he felt for Durins Folk must have been extended to all the other Dwarves as well.
We know that by the End of the third Age he had recaptured 3 of the 7 Rings (probably through war): so its only logical to assume that at least by the time of the Third Age the relationship between Sauron and the rest of the Clans was as broken as that between Sauron and Durins Folk. The fact that the Dwarves of ALL seven Houses fought a massive war of annihilation against the Orcs of the Misty Mountains from III 2793-2999 is further proof that at least by the time of the late Third Age Sauron had absolutely no control over the Dwarves.
Because of the close relationship between Eregion and Khazad-Dum the Dwarves of Moria also probably knew of the danger of their Ring and (just like the Elves) never wore it during the Second Age while Sauron had the One (so even IF the Dwarves of Moria could somehow be dominated through their ring, Sauron would not have been able to achieve that because they refused to wear it). And maybe they passed their knowledge on to the other Houses (i think thats rather likely).

The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power, Page 266:
Quote:
The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled in their hearts, of wich evil enough after came to the profit of Sauron.
So Sauron failed to directly dominate the Dwarves, he only profited indirectly. Maybe this wrath lead to infighting, or it was this greed that pushed the dwarves to dig ever deeper for mithril (and awaken/release the balrog) and maybe this greed also lead to the massive wealth of erebor that eventually attracted smaug.
But while the Dwarven Rings indirectly lead to evil, the Dwarves certainly did not bow to Sauron and become his servants, they are just too stubborn and proud.

Page 271, about the Battle of Dagorlad:
Quote:
Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.
Again: Even IF (big if) Sauron dominated the eastern Houses of the Dwarves during the second Age, how come so few were willing to fight for him? I guess those few were either mercenaries or small detachments sent for political/diplomatic reasons. The Dwarves cant always take the moral high road of the Elves because they are not immortal and dont have a valinorean "safety ticket" that would allow them to fall back on the Valar, they have to live, stay and die in Middle-earth and are forced to compromise.

Im sure there more quotes to be found, but i think thats enough for now.

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Old 07-20-2014, 01:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jallanite View Post
The Orcs whom Sam contacts telepathically and the Orc who is frightened by Sam are not themselves bearers of other Rings of Power. That the One Ring has a vague ability to somehow enhance Sauron’s ability to dominate other wills, is just vague. It does not work on Gollum who even till the end is opposed to Sauron’s will, though terrified by the thought of him. It does not work on Frodo who wishes rather to set himself up as a new Dark Lord opposed to Sauron.
I dont quite understand what youre trying to say ...
Both Sam and Frodo could, according to their own power, more easily dominate/impress other (weaker) wills when they wore the One Ring. It seemed to be an essential Function of the One Ring. Tolkien even states in some Letter (i dont have the exact quote) that it was the One Ring that allowed Sauron to dominate and seduce the Numenoreans during his stay on the island.
This easier "Domination" of Persons that dont wear another Ring of Power and the Control of the other Rings are the ONLY directly mentioned powers of the Ring - thats why i called it the "narrow" (based on textual evidence, not speculation) definition of the powers of the One Ring. All the other effects that mortal users like Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experience (prolonging of life, invisibility) are accidental side-effects that Sauron would not need, as an Ainu he is immortal and already partly in the unseen.
Gollums addiction to the One Ring seemed to have been stronger than his fear of Sauron (when Sauron was far away! I dont think Gollum "opposed" Saurons Will when they were in the same room during their little torture session! But Sauron is not the Ringbearer, Frodo is); and if Frodo concentrated enough, i think he would have been able to dominate Gollums will fairly quickly.

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Old 07-21-2014, 02:22 AM   #27
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Back to topic: why Sauron wants the Ring?
Simple reason that applies in both cases: he wants it back, because its his! The ring is a part of him, thats reason enough for wanting it back!

If definition 1 is correct:
he wants to recapture the Ring simply to deny any possible contender access to it. Recapture of the Ring would also speed up the conquest of Middle-earth by a few months or years because the works of the three elven rings would be "laid bare" (but given the fact that Sauron is hundreds of thousands of years old, i dont think that a few years here or there matter that much to him).
But Sauron doesnt seem to "need" the Ring that much, he can conquer Middle-earth without it.

If definition 2 is correct:
he wants to regain the Ring because it would make him much more powerful; he really has to gain something by recapturing it.

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Old 07-21-2014, 09:48 AM   #28
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But even follwoing the narrow definition Sauron has a good reason to get the One Ring back: not allowing anybudy else to use it against him. Sauron himself held at the end of the Thrid Age 12 Rings of Power: the Nine and 3 of the Seven. Some one trained enough in controlling the power of others and from his natural abbilty powerful enough using the One Ring might have been able to enslave Sauron himself rather quickly with some many Ring-connections to work with. Even if Sauron would have been able to protect himself in the same way as the Elven.Smith of Eregion did, he would have lost his controll over the Nazgûl and probably many of his Orks, as is seen by the one Ork frigthen away even by Sam using the Ring without any real controll.

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Old 07-21-2014, 01:00 PM   #29
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Of course, Sauron wants the Ring back no matter what (even if only for Safety Reasons).
IF anybody mastered it, the effect on Sauron would be the same as if it was destroyed: he would become disconnected from his power in the Ring and be reduced to a powerless spirit. But that may have been only a hypothetical threat and if anybody could really master the Ring and supplant Sauron is another Question. Tolkien himself wrote in a Letter that only Gandalf might be expected to master it, but if he really could is debatable (i think not). There is also a difference between wielding and mastering: a sufficiently powerful Ainu (for example Saruman) or Elda (for example Galadriel) might be capable of wielding the Ring and use it to dominate others, raise Armies etc. but they could not master it and would certainly lose in the final confrontation against Sauron.

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Old 07-26-2014, 05:23 PM   #30
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denethorthefirst is quite right about at least some of the Dwarves participating in the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. I had forgotten the mentions in Unfinished Tales. *My shame*

But I still disagree with denethorthefirst’s narrow definition:
The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.
My listing of various powers and abilities shown by the One Ring was to indicate that the One Rings shows powers not covered by this “narrow definition”.

I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.

The Ring gave Sauron, from its forging, more power, but Tolkien is vague on what powers it gave him. This vagueness veils the effectiveness of any discussion of this matter. Your attempt to distinguish between wielding the Ring and mastering the Ring is an example of this. You do not know, no more than I, whether the One Ring was used to raise Sauron’s armies in the Second Age any more that it was in the Third, so far as we are told.

It does seem that Sauron was on the verge of defeating Gondor and perhaps two of the Elven lands without the One Ring, except for such powers as served as an “anchor” to bring him back to life and at least to most of his former power. But how much Sauron’s power at the end of the Third Age was due to his former possession of the Ring we are not told. It may be that the possession of twelve of the Lesser Rings was quite a lot in its own right.

Note some readers find it odd that the One Ring is not even mentioned in the accounts of the Fall of Númenor save when the spirit of Sauron takes up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr after the drowning of Númenor. Had the One Ring not been with Sauron at all during his captivity in Númenor but hidden in Barad-dûr? Well, at least in Letter 211 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkien wrote:
Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.
So this tells us that in this time and place Tolkien imagines that Sauron, without the One Ring, would have little special power to persuade, as perhaps we should imagine him at the end of the Third Age. Yet Sauron has somehow persuaded hoards of Easterlings and Southrons to join him. Presumably we are to imagine that much of the power that he had put into the One Ring had returned to him.
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Old 07-26-2014, 11:06 PM   #31
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denethorthefirst is quite right about at least some of the Dwarves participating in the War of the Last Alliance against Sauron. I had forgotten the mentions in Unfinished Tales. *My shame*

But I still disagree with denethorthefirst’s narrow definition:
The only function of the One Ring was to dominate (the bearers of) the other Rings of Power and to somehow enhance Saurons ability to dominate other wills.
My listing of various powers and abilities shown by the One Ring was to indicate that the One Rings shows powers not covered by this “narrow definition”.

I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.

Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)

Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.
You seem to be misunderstanding or misreading what i wrote!

I already explained it:
The "narrow" definition states that the only (intended by Sauron when he forged it) powers of the one Ring are:
1. It allowed the bearer (Sauron at the time) to directly dominate the other Rings of Power (and their bearers) and
2. it also enhanced the bearers (Sauron at the time) ability to "intrude"/"read" (osanwe) and dominate other (non-ringbearer) wills (i.e. made it easier for him to break the barriers of unwill of persons that weren't wearing other rings of powers).
I dont like this definition (I favor the "broad" view of the Rings Powers), but it is completely supported by Tolkien!
These two functions of the One Ring are the ONLY directly mentioned powers of it (and all the powers you listed are covered by this "narrow" definition!)!

But: Sauron could only perform those two functions of the One Ring when he was in possession/control of it! (I think thats quite obvious! Thats why he wasn't able to dominate the other Rings of Power in the Third Age and the Elves were free to use their Three Rings in safety) He cant work through or control the One Ring from a distance, but he is still "connected" to his power within it and he is not "diminished" because of the loss of the One Ring (Letter 131).
Sauron is clearly not almighty: there are of course a lot of people in Middle-earth that are completely independent from him. For a lot of those the One Ring is tempting: it fills the mind of others with delusions of grandeur (Boromir, Galadriel, even Sam!). But i think that was an unintended side-effect of the One Ring: the Power that Sauron put in the Ring was so great that it had a "seducing" effect on lesser beings. I dont think thats something Sauron intended: he probably never thought he would lose it!

I NEVER wrote that the second function of the One Ring (the ability to more easily read/dominate other minds) worked only with other ring-bearers!
Sam, even though he is not trained, is able, when he is wearing the One Ring (and according to his own innate power), to "intrude"/"read" the mind of weaker wills (the orcs).
Tolkien also wrote in a letter that it was the One Ring that helped Sauron to easier dominate and manipulate the Numenoreans (almost an entire people!).
Other people besides Sauron could use the Ring, according to their own innate Power, even if they are not able to completely master it. For example: while Sam is able to access a tiny part of the Rings Power with respect to the lesser Orcs, he couldn't dominate the Three Ringbearers (Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond) and he would surely fail if he tried, with the help of the One Ring, to break the barriers of unwill of a more powerful non-ringbearer (like for example Denethor II).

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Nor is their even a hint, I believe, that Sauron was using his will through the One Ring especially to defeat either Elendil or Isildur in the War of the Last Alliance. Isildur is in the end overcome by his desire for the One Ring itself, when Isildur first names it his “precious”.
Of course Sauron used the One Ring in the War of the last Alliance, but Gil-Galad, Isildur, and especially Elendil were exceptional beings that had a lot of willpower and they resisted his efforts - i never wrote that the One Ring was somehow almighty. It allowed Sauron to better break the barriers of unwill and dominate/intrude other minds, but even while he was successfully doing that during his stay in Numenor, at least some (the Faithful) were resisting him!
We also have to take into account that the actual direct contact Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad had with Sauron was limited - and they resisted him successfully during that limited time! They might not have been able to resist his willpower for a prolonged period of time if, for example, Sauron had captured and (mentally) tortured them.

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Note some readers find it odd that the One Ring is not even mentioned in the accounts of the Fall of Númenor save when the spirit of Sauron takes up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr after the drowning of Númenor. Had the One Ring not been with Sauron at all during his captivity in Númenor but hidden in Barad-dûr? Well, at least in Letter 211 of Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Tolkien wrote:
Though reduced to ‘a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind’, I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.
So this tells us that in this time and place Tolkien imagines that Sauron, without the One Ring, would have little special power to persuade, as perhaps we should imagine him at the end of the Third Age. Yet Sauron has somehow persuaded hoards of Easterlings and Southrons to join him. Presumably we are to imagine that much of the power that he had put into the One Ring had returned to him.
Of course Sauron had the One Ring with him in Numenor (Tolkien himself says so), it was a part of him and he would never separate willingly from it.
You're wondering why Sauron is able, without the One Ring, to command Easterlings and Southrons. Sauron was simply manipulating them (like any sly politician would). We have to remember that those people are on a rather primitive cultural level; i think it was relatively easy for Sauron to manipulate them into thinking that he was some kind of God. He also laid the Groundwork and Foundation of his Third Age Rule in the Second Age (when he had the Ring).
But the notion that Sauron somehow transferred (or "got back") large parts of his power from the One Ring during the Third Age (even though he wasnt in posession???) is completely "un-tolkien" and not supported by the text!

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Old 07-27-2014, 07:22 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by denethorthefirst View Post
You're wondering why Sauron is able, without the One Ring, to command Easterlings and Southrons. Sauron was simply manipulating them (like any sly politician would). We have to remember that those people are on a rather primitive cultural level; i think it was relatively easy for Sauron to manipulate them into thinking that he was some kind of God. He also laid the Groundwork and Foundation of his Third Age Rule in the Second Age (when he had the Ring).
Keep in mind also that at least in the case of the Easterlings, they had been allied with Morgoth since the First Age battles, and would have no doubt at least known of Sauron's status as his second-in-command. After Morgoth's fall, it wouldn't have been difficult for Sauron to have assumed the position of their overlord, especially if he promised to help them defeat and plunder the West, which they hated.
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Old 07-27-2014, 11:48 AM   #33
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Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will.
It does look to me like there's an (as far as I know) isolated hint of this on Amon Hen: "[Frodo] heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell."
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:44 AM   #34
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Originally posted by Jallanite:
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Throughout The Lord of the Rings we see several characters tempted to control the Ring, but no-one tempted by an increased desire to submit himself or herself to Sauron’s will. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, Galadriel, Boromir, Saruman, and even Sam, are tempted to take the Ring for themselves, to use against Sauron, which is surely not Sauron’s will. (Unless you wish to suggest that Sauron is transmitting a suggestion to the bearer of the One Ring to reveal himself [or herself] as a trick, as Sauron expected to quickly overcome whoever now had the Ring, once that was revealed. That would be possible in some cases, but not in most.)
I NEVER wrote that the (from Sauron disconnected) One Ring somehow "tempted" or otherwise made people want to submit to Sauron - i have no idea how Jallanite came to that conclusion by reading my posts. The One Ring "manipulates" (metaphorically speaking since it has no will of its own) the desires of other people (thats why it leads to delusions of grandeur - almost like a drug induced state of euphoria caused by the enormous power thats inside the ring) - but submitting to Sauron as a slave of his, thats not a desire, nobody wishes that.
(That could also be the reason why the Ring has no power over and cannot tempt Bombadil: he has no desires - he exists in an almost zen-like state of fulfillment and the Ring has nothing to play on or to "offer" him; however that does not mean that Bombadil could master the Ring or is more powerful than the Ring.)
But: it could be possible that the "wish" (again, metaphorically speaking) of the Ring to return to its master maybe somehow affected/influenced, on a subconscious level, people that were tempted by it or wore it, and the Amon Hen Episode that Ixnay posted seems to point in that direction.

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Old 07-28-2014, 07:00 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Jallanite:
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I do not see that Sam’s listening in on the Orcs telepathically enables either Sam or Sauron to dominate the wills of those Orcs. The Orcs are not even bearers of other Rings of Power.
Although i still dont understand why you include Sauron in your Statement ... You are right that Sam did not actually dominate the Orcs with the help of the One Ring.
But: he took the necessary first step, he "intruded" their mind. The One Ring seemed to somehow enhance the powers of Osanwe the respective bearer had. Sam, as a Hobbit (and a naturally incarnate being), has a very limited innate capability of Osanwe. But (with the help of the ring) he is able to somewhat read the mind of the orcs. Now I would speculate that Sam has a stronger Will than the run of the mill low-life snaga that has been put down his entire life - i think its entirely possible that even a Hobbit like Sam (quite low-ranking on the Arda-powerscale) would after a little training be capable, when wearing the One Ring, to dominate the will of minor orcs like that in a direct confrontation.
But maybe the episode with Sam in Cirith Ungol isnt the best example to use ... Tolkien does not state directly that it was the Ring that made it possible for Sam to understand the Orcs, its possible that they were speaking an Orc-Slang of Westron and Sam only thought he could understand them because of the Ring.
(The second instance is also problematic because Sam is not actually wearing but merely "grabbing" the Ring - maybe Saurons contained power "emanated" from it and gave Sam some sort of "Aura". Quote: "For what it (the orc) saw was not a small frightened hobbit trying to hold a steady sword: it saw a great silent shape, cloaked in a grey shadow, looming against the wavering light behind; in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which was a bitter pain, the other was clutched at its breast, but held concealed some nameless menace of power and doom." It seems that the orc was afraid of the Ring.)

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Old 07-28-2014, 06:46 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by denethorthefirst View Post
Originally posted by Jallanite:

But: it could be possible that the "wish" (again, metaphorically speaking) of the Ring to return to its master maybe somehow affected/influenced, on a subconscious level, people that were tempted by it or wore it, and the Amon Hen Episode that Ixnay posted seems to point in that direction.
Tom Shippey speculated that "Verily I come..." could even be the voice of the Ring itself.
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